Obama’s political arm raising money for ENDA fight

[Shana A]

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[Ltl89]

If a person is difficult to fire and doing so creates significant exposure to lawsuit, companies will shy away from hiring them. That's just rational behavior. Every new employee has the risk of not working out in a particular job and companies want the option to correct those situations. I've been fired before and it's always worked out for the best. I got a better job where I was appreciated and did good work. The prior company moved on with someone else and I hope it worked out for them. My life would've been worse if the company just stuck me in some worthless role but let me stick around. Why would I want that for others? I don't. I don't condone discrimination, but it's difficult to legislate at this low of level, at the hiring/firing process of companies. I think this kind of legislation makes us look weak.

But Enda isn't a law intending to say that you can't fire people who are gay or trans. It's saying you can't fire solely on the basis of being trans.  Again, if someone sucks at their job or is failing to meet the task at hand, they should be fired for that.  If they aren't meeting the dress code or fail to meet the standards that are set for them, then they are at risk of losing their jobs.  It is irrelevant as to who or what they.  The same is true for any other anti-discrimanation policy and I don't think it's hurting these classes.  We see many more professional women nowadays and african Americans have now been able to elevate themselves socially enough to where the presidency was achievable.  Did the anti-discrmination laws hurt these classes or make them look weak?  In my opinion, the answer is no.  In fact, women and minority groups have been better off economically since these laws have passed.  Again, would you argue these laws have hurt them?  And what do the employment statistics have to say? And if the lgbt community is better off without this legislation, why does the trans community face higher unemployment than on average? By the way, I live in an area that has these protections and can tell you trans people are able to be employed without issue.  So, it isn't always a hindrance.   

Having said that, I do understand that bureaucracy can be a pain and sometimes irrelevant, but if it is done properly it can be an aid.  It depends on how it is written and implemented.  Even legislation with good intentions can be a disaster if it isn't well thought out or narrowly tailored.  Still, I don't think that's the case with Enda.  And most bureaucracy I have seen with companies tend to be an internal issue than a government problem.  It took me forever to start my new job because of their own internal regulations. 

[Jamie D]

My personal feeling is that the trans* community really has to do more outreach.

[Ltl89]

My personal feeling is that the trans* community really has to do more outreach.

I don't disagree.  Still, I understand why it doesn't happen too often.  People are afraid of outing themselves and stealth is generally desirable.  At least, it is for me.  Though, the trans community does fight back sometimes.  I know there are plenty of lgbt organizations which fund outreach and canvassing projects.  I'm not sure how much help its had in the long run, but we are a lot better off than before I was born which isn't too long ago in the grand scheme of things.  It can only improve if we keep fighting. 

[amZo]

But Enda isn't a law intending to say that you can't fire people who are gay or trans. It's saying you can't fire solely on the basis of being trans.

Perhaps in theory, but not in practice.

We've seen how this works recently... "If you like your current insurance and doctor, you can keep them, period."

[Jamie D]

I don't disagree.  Still, I understand why it doesn't happen too often.  People are afraid of outing themselves and stealth is generally desirable.  At least, it is for me.  Though, the trans community does fight back sometimes.  I know there are plenty of lgbt organizations which fund outreach and canvassing projects.  I'm not sure how much help its had in the long run, but we are a lot better off than before I was born which isn't too long ago in the grand scheme of things.  It can only improve if we keep fighting.

That is very true.  Many of us just want to "blend in."  And I respect that.

But some of us can try to help build those bridges, and tear down those walls.

[genderhell]

Will  there be a "religious exception" so religious organizations, religious schools, religious universities can still discriminate?


I found it .. http://www.civilrights.org/lgbt/enda/religious-exemption.html

The exemption consists of three parts:
•A complete exemption for houses of worship, parochial and similar religious schools, and missions
•A codification of the so-called "ministerial exemption" recognized by many federal courts, exempting positions at religious organizations that involve the teaching or spreading religion, religious governance, or the supervision of individuals engaged in these activities
•A provision allowing religious organizations, for classes of jobs, to require employees and applicants to conform to a declared set of significant religious tenets, including ones which would bar LGBT people from holding the position

[amZo]

And if the lgbt community is better off without this legislation, why does the trans community face higher unemployment than on average? By the way, I live in an area that has these protections and can tell you trans people are able to be employed without issue.  So, it isn't always a hindrance.

This seems a little contradictory to me. You live where they have these protections but there's higher unemployment for them. I'm not sure this is about job protection or is it about punishing those we think are against us? I don't wish to do that. I'd rather they live with the guilt, that probably does more to affect change than anything. Have you ever treated a foe with kindness? I'm sure you have, it can be the most effective means to change their heart. And yes, I've been kind to many people, even foes. 

I don't mean to hijack the thread, I think the original skepticism of being pandered to is a good one. It was predictable we get attention when some politicians are feeling some heat. Oh well.

[Ltl89]

Perhaps in theory, but not in practice.

We've seen how this works recently... "If you like your current insurance and doctor, you can keep them, period."

The affordable care act is a very different piece of legislation.  Not only in it's scope, but also in it's intended impact.  Also, health care reform of such a nature is pretty unprecedented in the U.S.  No one can actually think they know exactly how it will turn out.  I work in the medical field and the doctors in my office hate the legislation.  Still they acknowledge that they don't know what the future holds.  None of us do. In any case,  I brought up other anti-discrimination policies which are similar in nature and wonder why you are deviating from the topic and addressing different policy initiatives.  We have a history of anti-discrimination policies, and can judge based on the evidence of history. The affordable care act has nothing to do with Enda and it shouldn't be compared with it.  Whether the ACA fails or not, it doesn't mean that the government can't pass some successful legislation with good outcomes.  For example, just because one business goes belly up, it doesn't refute capitalism or say that no other business can succeed.  The fact is the country has plenty of anti-discrimination laws that have led to many societal improvements.    Why you choose to ignore them and focus on Obamacare really puzzles me. 

That is very true.  Many of us just want to "blend in."  And I respect that.

But some of us can try to help build those bridges, and tear down those walls.

I do my best to tear down those walls, but I do it while in hiding.  I'm a bit of a coward in that respect.  Those who are out and proud to everyone have all of my respect.  I'm not even able to post my image up here due to fear.  It's just that I want to one day live in stealth and be seen as any other girl.  Though, sometimes that makes me feel guilty because I feel as though I'm not giving back.  Still, I do what I can in other ways. 

This seems a little contradictory to me. You live where they have these protections but there's higher unemployment for them. I'm not sure this is about job protection or is it about punishing those we think are against us? I don't wish to do that. I'd rather they live with the guilt, that probably does more to affect change than anything. Have you ever treated a foe with kindness? I'm sure you have, it can be the most effective means to change their heart. And yes, I've been kind to many people, even foes. 

I don't mean to hijack the thread, I think the original skepticism of being pandered to is a good one. It was predictable we get attention when some politicians are feeling some heat. Oh well.

I don't mean to punish people.  I mean to advance a minority group which has been done before.  Again, why is the lgbt community different from other protected classes like women or African Americans?  Why does it work for them, but it can't for us.  It's not about fighting the system, but ensuring that there are proper protections for those who do nothing wrong other than living as who they are.  Why do you think it's about anything other than that?  I'm not asking for a priest to come and hug me, lol.  Nor am I saying that I want to punish anyone. I'm saying that someone shouldn't be fired because they are gay or trans.  Please, I'm sure you have ideas on what left wingers are like, but I'm really open and accepting that there are people with different views.  All I ever ask is that we are tolerated and given the same legal rights as everyone else.  I don't expect everyone to accept us or embrace who we are.  People are free to judge my lifestyle and disagree with me.  Just at least respect us and give us the same rights that other citizens are entitled to.  That's all any of us can ask for at the end of the day. 

As for the contradiction, in my part of NY the trans population tend to be better off than other areas.  I am saying that those who live in the metro areas with legal protections will probably be okay because of the support structure which exists, but if you go into a place that doesn't have these protections you are at more of a risk.  Again, the unemployment rates don't lie. 

[Jamie D]

I do my best to tear down those walls, but I do it while in hiding. I'm a bit of a coward in that respect.  Those who are out and proud to everyone have all of my respect.  I'm not even able to post my image up here due to fear.  It's just that I want to one day live in stealth and be seen as any other girl.  Though, sometimes that makes me feel guilty because I feel as though I'm not giving back.  Still, I do what I can in other ways. 

Nope, my dear.  I am not going to let you go there.  You are not a coward.

The old saying is that "Discretion is the better part of valor."  There is nothing wrong with looking out for yourself and avoiding trouble.  In fact, I will go so far as to say, I believe that everybody here, whether they are closeted, out to friends and family, out at work, full time, part time, no time, doesn't matter!  That they have admitted to themselves that they are feeling that gender incongruity, they've already proven their bravery in my estimation.

The self-identification part is the hardest.

So no, no, no.  You are not lacking bravery.

Just by way of background, I only posted one image of myself in the first year I was on the site (actually, 13 months in).  I worked up to then posting a voice recording in the Androgyne forum.  It took a long, long time for me to post a YouTube video here, and I squirreled it away in my blog, where only close friends would ever see it.

I have made a couple more private YouTube videos, even one in costume for Halloween (enema nurse). playing the fool.  Otherwise I am very private.

[LordKAT]

And if the lgbt community is better off without this legislation, why does the trans community face higher unemployment than on average? By the way, I live in an area that has these protections and can tell you trans people are able to be employed without issue. So, it isn't always a hindrance.   

There seems to be some picking and choosing parts of sentences without reading the whole, like some who use the bible to put their point across.

.
I read this as high unemployment without protections.

With protections, employment is un impeded

[dalebert]

We see many more professional women nowadays and african Americans have now been able to elevate themselves socially enough to where the presidency was achievable.  Did the anti-discrmination laws hurt these classes or make them look weak?

I think they may have. Correlation does not equal causation. We have made progress culturally, become less racist as a society, become less sexist. I don't attribute those changes to anti-discrimination laws. I think that a culture that is progressing socially is more likely to support and pass laws like that. Doesn't mean the laws deserve the credit for the changes.

I think laws like this are likely to create a tremendous amount of litigiousness in an already overly litigious society. I also suspect they do a lot more harm than good. But that's just how I feel. I already know that you have more faith in these kinds of laws. We'll probably just continue to disagree unless we have personal experiences that make us reconsider.

[amZo]

Correlation does not equal causation. We have made progress culturally, become less racist as a society, become less sexist. I don't attribute those changes to anti-discrimination laws.

Very true. I have little doubt these social changes were already well underway and no law could have caused or prevented this change. I just think politicians are very good at jumping out in front of parades.

[Missy~rmdlm]

I support ENDA and ERA for that matter, I have no idea why they have been stuck forever. I occasionally see people complain about age discrimination implying they were released -because- the protections made them a liability. I also see that regularly coupled to a lack of up to date training. I don't think 58yo MVP's are being released all that often(this is all documented out the wazoo in the modern workplace.) If genuine age discrimination takes place get a lawyer and get it fixed, or decide their not the kind of people you want to associate with anyhow.
In my workplace I have survived the old fashioned LGBT way, overachievement. But what about those that aren't capable of that? The stats for getting hired in the first place aren't great for T people either, it is not like one can prove themselves at to be at least average when not given a chance. In short I really have a hard time believing that ENDA could make the employment situation any worse than it is for T people.

[dalebert]

These are some great examples of laws having good intentions but bad unintended consequences. Just some food for thought. I came across this just now and it made me think back to Nikko's point about how some employees can be risky hires due to the laws.

[LordKAT]

Articles from Cracked are not what I would call news. They are Satire only.

[Jamie D]

These are some great examples of laws having good intentions but bad unintended consequences. Just some food for thought. I came across this just now and it made me think back to Nikko's point about how some employees can be risky hires due to the laws.

That was a great read!  Thanks

[Joelene9]

  I second the above!  Good intentions in laws backfiring.  One historical law was actually amended to the US constitution: Prohibition.

  Joelene

[dalebert]

Articles from Cracked are not what I would call news. They are Satire only.

My first thought is that is an ad hominem. Mostly what Cracked does is take real news and write funny stuph about it. Here's the first reference they provide to a study where the conclusions were drawn and that is news. Whether it has merit might be a worthwhile argument in itself, but just the fact that they provide references is, I think, enough to not be quite so dismissive.

A study by researchers Scott Adams and Chad Cotti discovered that, when faced with smoking bans in bars near their homes, alcohol-drinking smokers would simply drive further to other jurisdictions where the bans weren't in place.

A better point would be something along the lines of "The article's author concludes that what went wrong with that law was <something> but I find his conclusions do not make sense because <argument for why his conclusions don't make sense>."

[dalebert]

Another example, and I will try to find the reference(s), was when some states banned texting while driving because they believed it was increasing accidents. Not an unreasonable conclusion. Accidents went up after the law and someone theorized it's because the law didn't stop most people from texting. They just became more cautious about being caught. Instead of texting with their phone up in front of them which would put them at risk of being seen by police, they were keeping it down in their laps and glancing back and forth between the phone and the road which was even more unsafe than before.