Susan's Place Logo

News:

According to Google Analytics 25,259,719 users made visits accounting for 140,758,117 Pageviews since December 2006

Main Menu

My voice journey

Started by anjaq, November 12, 2013, 06:21:38 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Teslagirl

Quote from: anjaq on April 13, 2015, 07:51:04 AM
Here is a "official" pre OP voice at a voice doctor: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0E1rwXhMaBL (also in german , just like the other one before - I will post english texts soon). Admittedly, the voice I use in that clip is not what I did in everyday conversations, it is my relaxed and lower voice. This is another recording I did for myself and probably is more like I spoke everyday towards the end of last year. Its also pretty low, but this is close to my everyday voice then. http://vocaroo.com/i/s1jJHundjYIb

Ah, my original thoughts are even more confirmed: you sound totally female now that the undertones in your original voice are gone. This really gives me hope and makes me convinced this surgery is for me! The frequency is a little higher, but your old voice had some of the markers I recognise in my own voice (though yours have gone now). Wow!

I just need to be sure this lack of undertonal 'male' markers is permanent and not just due to the botox. What do you think?
  •  

Teslagirl

Quote from: anjaq on April 14, 2015, 04:48:17 PM
I think I had a bit of a setback - I was talking way too much on the last weekend, having met with family and friends and being in restaurants and a bar - so I am having a sore throat now for a while and cannot really speak up, I try to keep it low now - saying only few words and at low volume and hoping it will go away soon ...

Don't worry, I'm sure it's only temporary. I did some shouting a while ago and was convinced I had done some serious damage because I could make no sound. I rested my voice for a day and a night and it came back.
  •  

anjaq

Yes, I will try to give it more rest, but I cannot really manage to stay totally silent for a day again. Maybe on the weekend...

I hope it will all recover and be better.

So yes indeed the markers, the undertones are gone. I think most of them will be gone forever. But I can only tell you in some months for sure. I think Amy said from her experience, that they just are gone forever for her.

I actually dont mind it if pitch does not go incredibly high. I am happy if it just goes up a little more from those recordings. Thats ok for a big german woman in her 40ies. The change in the undertones and the inability to drop accidentially into some really low range is already worth a ton.

One thing I find curious is this stronger response of my pitch to using pitch variations. I think I know now, why it is so hard for many to get rid of the monotonous speaking that men usually have and that many transwomen try to get rid of with voice training. It just takes a whole lot more effort to use these pitch variations with male sized vocal folds as compared to female vocal folds - the same muscle tension and effort just produces more pitch variation.

  •  

kwala

Quote from: anjaq on April 16, 2015, 04:46:43 PM
Yes, I will try to give it more rest, but I cannot really manage to stay totally silent for a day again. Maybe on the weekend...

I hope it will all recover and be better.

So yes indeed the markers, the undertones are gone. I think most of them will be gone forever. But I can only tell you in some months for sure. I think Amy said from her experience, that they just are gone forever for her.

I actually dont mind it if pitch does not go incredibly high. I am happy if it just goes up a little more from those recordings. Thats ok for a big german woman in her 40ies. The change in the undertones and the inability to drop accidentially into some really low range is already worth a ton.

One thing I find curious is this stronger response of my pitch to using pitch variations. I think I know now, why it is so hard for many to get rid of the monotonous speaking that men usually have and that many transwomen try to get rid of with voice training. It just takes a whole lot more effort to use these pitch variations with male sized vocal folds as compared to female vocal folds - the same muscle tension and effort just produces more pitch variation.

Your observation about the ease of pitch variation sounds heavenly.  I know you overdid it a little bit last weekend but other than that, how has the volume level been? Is it straining to speak loudly? Thanks :)
  •  

anjaq

Well I need to see if the easiness in pitch variation holds up in full volume speaking which I should not do too much now and which was the cause of the issues I had this week. I used my voice too loudly because the restaurant became fuller and fuller and I did not even notice until at some point I noticed it is harder and harder to speak. So yes, higher volume still is a strain. But this hopefully will mainly take time to heal and voice rehab and voice exercises to help go away.

Right now at a medium or low volume, I somethines have to watch not to be squeaky when speaking since I have somehow gotten used to push my pitch up in some syllabils to improve voice melody. So if I still do that I end up way too high and it sounds stupid - so I probably will have to unlearn some of the things I learned.

  •  

kwala

Quote from: anjaq on April 17, 2015, 04:55:20 PM
Well I need to see if the easiness in pitch variation holds up in full volume speaking which I should not do too much now and which was the cause of the issues I had this week. I used my voice too loudly because the restaurant became fuller and fuller and I did not even notice until at some point I noticed it is harder and harder to speak. So yes, higher volume still is a strain. But this hopefully will mainly take time to heal and voice rehab and voice exercises to help go away.

Right now at a medium or low volume, I somethines have to watch not to be squeaky when speaking since I have somehow gotten used to push my pitch up in some syllabils to improve voice melody. So if I still do that I end up way too high and it sounds stupid - so I probably will have to unlearn some of the things I learned.
Thanks for the info, so fascinating I can't wait to see a few months down the road whether or not you maintained your super high head voice notes. 
  •  

anjaq

Hey. So I had my 8 week post OP examination at a local clinic. The endoscopic view looks good so far:



The voice examination gave me this result:



Which means my average speaking pitch is at about 188 Hz (up from 135-150), my vocal range is about 3 octaves (down from 3.5), lowest pitch is 114 Hz (up from 80 Hz), highest pitch is 788 Hz (down from about 960 Hz), volume is down by about 5-10 dB, DSI is down by about 1 point, indicating some hoarseness, jitter is really low (better than before surgery), this is probably a Botox effect.

And this is the rainbow passage recording, I sent together with all the other data to Dr Kim, awaiting analysis now...
http://vocaroo.com/i/s10misJIspPe

So far I think I am good. I need to regain strength, volume, loose the hoarseness and see what happens to my vocal range. I would not mind loosing some more at the bottom and regaining a lot on the top.

  •  

thegreenrabbit

Looking and sounding good.
  •  

kwala

The suture looks clean and expertly done and you sound amazing :)
  •  

iKate

  •  

anjaq

Well, its ups and downs....

Today I did a recording and it was basically my original pitch again:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1fthQ0ZlEV3

I ask myself if the reason I had a better pitch last week was bascially just that it is a lot easier now to slip into my trained voice, so that I just do it without thinking too much. This still is good - it means its a lot easier to use that voice, but it also kind of seems to imply that if I happen to not do this, I drop back to my old pitch. One thing about this is remarkable though, that low pitch actually is more straining and makes me have to clear my throat afterwards - so it clerarly is not the optimum voice to use. Still it can come out when I try to not do anything.

I hope voice training can fix this somehow and some more healing will contribute as well. Maybe my brain just has to get used to using that higher pitch all the time now that it is not taking any effort anymore and not use that lower pitch that still is there, but not really comfortable to use.


  •  

thegreenrabbit

Quote from: anjaq on April 27, 2015, 04:45:00 AM
Well, its ups and downs....

Today I did a recording and it was basically my original pitch again:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1fthQ0ZlEV3

I ask myself if the reason I had a better pitch last week was bascially just that it is a lot easier now to slip into my trained voice, so that I just do it without thinking too much. This still is good - it means its a lot easier to use that voice, but it also kind of seems to imply that if I happen to not do this, I drop back to my old pitch. One thing about this is remarkable though, that low pitch actually is more straining and makes me have to clear my throat afterwards - so it clerarly is not the optimum voice to use. Still it can come out when I try to not do anything.

I hope voice training can fix this somehow and some more healing will contribute as well. Maybe my brain just has to get used to using that higher pitch all the time now that it is not taking any effort anymore and not use that lower pitch that still is there, but not really comfortable to use.
Interesting, though the healing is still not matured yet. I don't expect to be anywhere near stable before at least 6 months to a year.
  •  

Teslagirl

I really don't think the pitch is that important, as now you've lost the undertones, your voice sounds female at whatever pitch you use. This is probably why a female alto sounds female, and a male alto still sounds male.

Incidentally, do you know why I might be getting this message from Jessie at Yeson (in response to two emails):

"Thank you for contacting Yeson Voice Center. This is Jessie from International Patients Department.
We are going to celebrate our lunar new year holidays from Feb 18th to Feb22nd so that I will be able to get back to you following my return on Feb 23rd. I'm genuinely sorry for any inconvenience caused.
For any case of emergency, please reach me at +xx-xx-xxxx-xxxx.
Your patience and cooperation are always appreciated.

Sincerely,
Jessie Shin"
  •  

kwala

Quote from: Teslagirl on May 04, 2015, 04:19:59 PM
I really don't think the pitch is that important, as now you've lost the undertones, your voice sounds female at whatever pitch you use. This is probably why a female alto sounds female, and a male alto still sounds male.

Incidentally, do you know why I might be getting this message from Jessie at Yeson (in response to two emails):

"Thank you for contacting Yeson Voice Center. This is Jessie from International Patients Department.
We are going to celebrate our lunar new year holidays from Feb 18th to Feb22nd so that I will be able to get back to you following my return on Feb 23rd. I'm genuinely sorry for any inconvenience caused.
For any case of emergency, please reach me at +xx-xx-xxxx-xxxx.
Your patience and cooperation are always appreciated.

Sincerely,
Jessie Shin"

I think it's just a typical "away from the office" email that she sent out to notify any recent patients from the practice that she won't be checking her messages on the dates listed while she's on vacation :)
  •  

anjaq

QuoteThis is probably why a female alto sounds female, and a male alto still sounds male
I am not sure - its part of that, for sure. But another part is resonance, I can still do a more male resonance - its iffy and not working properly, but then it sounds indeed more like a boy voice. Hence the emphasis on the resonance exercises

Yesterday I was at a small event, a meeting of women. As part of that we also did some singing/chanting. And it works! I could sing or rather chant - not for very long, not hitting notes perfectly, but I could sing and one of the women remarked that it is a great voice, too. Also, I did not feel betrayed by my voice during the evening. I felt like I belong and I am not having this thing attached to me when I open my mouth (which also lurks in the shadow when I dont talk) that makes me feel like "a different kind of woman" - I am happy :) :)

Regarding the reply from Jessie - I got the same thing. She must have activated an autoresponder because she is away from office for vacation or holidays and probably forgot to change the autoresponder text :P

  •  

kwala

Anja, that is so wonderful.  It's the little things like that that often make the biggest difference.  It must be so wonderful not to worry about the way your voice sounds and feel like it matches your personality.  Congrats :)
  •  

calicarly

Anjaq , I just wanted to say I am so very pleased for you, I listened to your voice recordings and you sound wonderful. I know you had been on a journey of research on ffs and glottoplasty, I am glad you went with this. It's very interesting!

As someone who has been transitioned for a while myself, I am starting to feel as though the effort to my vocal cords is taking a toll, they feel tired and forced, and the more that happens the more nasal and funny I sound these days. The people that know I'm trans, praise my voice, but I, like you used to, have a voice that I use in public that sounds lovely and female and one at home that is a little more lose but still female. It does cause me some dysphoria when I cough sometimes and I hear this voice that I don't like. And the feeling to my vocal cords, they feel tired.
So a question would be , although it might be too early to ask, does this feeling of forced and tired vocal cords seem to be alleviating after your surgery? I have just found out about a Dr. Doing the Yeson style surgery in the UK, and I'm considering a private consultation and also mentioning this to my gender clinic. I don't want to keep straining my vocal cords forever and I want to live with the same peace of mind of which you just spoke of you felt at the all women gathering. You described it in a way that I actually visualised it well.

Let me know your thoughts, I am so so very pleased for you.
Low dose HRT-2004
Full time and full dose HRT-2009
BA/Rhinoplasty-May 2013
FFS-Aug 2014
Body contouring-Jan 2015
GRS- Feb 2016
  •  

anjaq

Hi. Well, It is a bit early indeed. I sometimes feel a lot less strained, especially in the upper range, it is far far easier to just speak. However the lower areas where I feel a regular speaking voice should sit are rough. I still have to watch tha tI use the voice correctly, I hope this will eventually become second nature, but for now I need to watch to use the right resonance and phonation pattern. If I don't, my voice drops and sounds breathy and hoarse and is getting sore. So I need to re-learn how to use my voice properly, but if I get this right, there is little strain using a high pitched voice.

What bugs me a bit is that in the chest voice, below the middle C for me now, the phonation is much less stable as in the head voice and all the Yeson exercises aim at the range above the middle C. So I added some lower pitch exercises from my therapist, since my target average speaking pitch would be G or A below the middle C, meaning I also would use E or F occasionally. Laughing is really cool now. coughing did not change that much, just a bit I guess.

This is me 10.5 week update by the way: http://vocaroo.com/i/s03LQj4zeS4W
For this recording I use female resonance technique, which is not hard to do for me now, and I dont control pitch except of course when reading that stupid text, I always feel inclinded to overly intonate the words ;) - average pitch comes out at 180 Hz (about F below the middle C). Dr Kim estimated I should get to 210 though, I am not sure if that will happen, if so, it takes some more time. But 180 are all right, too.

Dropping the resonance control, I seem to end up more in the area of 160-170 Hz, which is slightly above my pre op trained speaking pitch. But this then is what pre OP would have ended up as being 120 or 130 Hz, so my pitch gain overall in lowest pitch, male resonance and female resonance voice is always 30-40 Hz, about half of what can be expected from the surgery. So I have hope that given the description says pitch can inrease for months, I still will see some increase...

Back to your question - the strain I feel now is a very different one from before. I dont feel much need to force something, rahter I feel that using too much force makes it harder to speak, but also there is a hoarseness and soreness that comes up when doing something not quite right. That is a new kind of strain I guess, but as you said, it is probably too early to say anything, since I am not even in the phase where the Botox wears off.

Be careful about choosing a surgeon though. The method itself is 20 years old and was applied to Transsexuals in the 1990ies. Its not something shiny new that just by doing it will give better results than previous techniques. In fact som of the surgeons using this technique certainly have contributed to the bad reputation, voice surgery has, by not doing it well. The key to success of this surgery seems to be:

* details in the surgical technique (not the general technique itself) - like how many stitches, where to place them, how to treat the muscous membranes, etc...
* experience, enthusiasm and precision of the surgeon
* A very well done aftercare that often goes beyond what surgeons suggest (Yeson seem to give the most strict rules, I would follow them in any case)
* Speech therapy before and after the surgery.


Greetings

  •  

calicarly

Thanks Anjaq, I will take your advice and inform myself about the Drs technique in detail before I decide on anything or anyone. As a matter of fact if it's not too much to ask. I might do a recording or 2 and share them with you here so you can give me your opinion, not so much your opinion on how good or not my trained voice is but wether you think there's improvement to be made with my more relaxed voice and to the straining?  Is there any particular sites you could suggest to me I can use to understand things better also? In regards to resonance, etc etc? do you use any apps ? Like to check the pitch in Hz?

Just heard that recording and you sound really great, what I like about it is that it sounds effortless. It sounds like a low pitch female voice but an absolutely jnedniable female voice . It doesn't sound when listening to your preop trained voice. Although it was female there was a certain straining I could almost detect, that maybe most people wouldn't , I often wonder wether this might be something with me too. ..
Carly x
Low dose HRT-2004
Full time and full dose HRT-2009
BA/Rhinoplasty-May 2013
FFS-Aug 2014
Body contouring-Jan 2015
GRS- Feb 2016
  •  

anjaq

Well yes - i did not expect to become a very high pitched voice person - I am still hoping for some increase though, since it was said that pitch can increase with time quite a bit. I think the biggest changes for me so far are really that there is less effort involved in using higher pitches, the no-effort voice is a bit higher than before, I dont have to force the voice up if I want to use more voice melody, I cannot really drop in horrible lows anymore, the timbre has changed a bit - before I think I had to really watch out to not let the low undertones sneak in, now I can just forget about them.

The changes I had so far are less dramatic than what I heard in others here - so I am not the "case 1" in Dr Kims charts, who basically have pitch increase very fast and strong, but I am apparently more the "case 2" where it takes some months to develop. As of now, I still have to consciously elevate my voice at times to keep it at a good pitch, but it takes much less effort and control. Also it may be a mind thing - if I use my voice without thinking, sometimes it just comes out higher than when I speak normally. I guess years and years of controlling my voice make it harder to let go now...

Also as stupid as it sounds, but at times I just dont dare to use a higher pitched voice even if I could. I would feel weird around people who know me and my previous voice... So my voice is different with people who did not know me before, I believe

  •