My voice journey

[anjaq]

Well, I want to improve on strength, on loosing the breathiness that is not so much audible in recordings but in real life it is. Also I want to work on improving that transition to the higher pitches with more ease because as you said, in the higher pitches it sometimes sounds strained - when it flips into head voice its good again but that transition between is very hard for me and it is within my speaking range.

I think you are right and my comfortable speaking pitch is on average at about 180-200 Hz - this is ok, I guess - its a low female voice but not in the male range. Its an increase of about 45-60 Hz to my pre op voice. So maybe I can also manage to get into the 200 Hz range or even the 215 Hz range that Dr Kim predicted by default and not so much in the 180 Hz. But if its at 180, its like it is and its ok, I am not a tiny young woman, so its ok to be a bit low.  Still, I will wait for the end of the 9 month period that seems to be the range in which sometimes changes still occur.

I noticed that the comfortable pitch did increase in the past months though. I think I started at 170 on average at about 6-8 weeks, now it seems to be about 190 Hz at 5 months - and it comes more natural - so it is all improving steadily but slowly, which is why I say I want to just not think about it too much for a while and just let it go its way. Not controlling the voice is also a key issue, because I know that I control too much and destroy more than I improve it by doing so. But overall its great - I feel my voice now is really much more a part of myself than before. It feels similar to the warm feeling I get when I feel other parts of my body that have been feminized by surgery or hormones - so I totally think that surgery was worth it, just saying because I sometimes say things about my voice that I am not yet totally happy with, but you can hopefully hear in the voice samples that my voice is rather good already and I am complaining at a high level  about little things

[iKate]

I agree with Dena, sort of. There is a slight tremor in one part (at least that's my interpretation) and a lot of breathiness.

The German ones are hard for me to judge but pitch is pitch. They sound good (well, the pre-op sounds pre-op).

But I would gender this voice female and you said you are a bit tall and middle age anyway so the voice would match. I'm hoping people don't mismatch my voice. Dr Kim tied off only 1/3 I think because my voice was kind of high plus I don't think he wanted it too too high. Neither did I. I just want something close to my female relatives who do sound kind of deep anyway.

[anjaq]

Yes, I think I have plenty of tremor still and the posterior vocal fold gap... so I am not sure, I have to work on those. I would take another botox if it helps with the tremors in the long run, but Dr Kim advised against it and insists on using the medication instead.

I am not that tall, but I am a bit heavy built and in the 40 year age range. So its ok to not have a teenage voice. Dr Kim actually reduced the length by 40% and not the usual 1/3 - I think it was mainly to correct an asymmetry I had. At first I thought this may have been too much and maybe my pitch would go up too high but apparently I could have been ok even with the 50% suture.

And as I said before, I think the judgement on my original pitch was somewhat wrong. He measured 134 Hz and thus predicted 210 Hz as target - but I think my original pitch was more like 110 Hz, in which case the 180 now would be pretty much right on the target.

Lets see how the gender of the voice holds up - it was only few occasions that I was misgendered on my voice even pre op, but it happened occasionally. It did not happen yet post op

[anjaq]

Ok. Time for the 6 month update:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s174Nl5ghVrN (german)
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Ky21g3EO0W (english)

Pitch in speaking seems to be at about 170 Hz in the english clip, about 180 in the german clip. When reading, pitch goes up to 185 or higher on average. The lows while speaking are at 140 Hz, sometimes 150 Hz. That means this is the lowest pitched sylabils or words I use. if I consciously try to speak monotonously at a relaxed pitch, about 140-160 Hz average is where I would end up with, depending on the day and time. So the average pitch really depends a lot on the voice melody and intonation.

What bugs me is that my voice still sounds like I have a cold or slight laryngitis. People notice this a lot and ask me about it, which is something that just annoys me as I was hoping to not sound like my voice has a damage after the surgery. I need to see if the next 6 months will make a difference and change this to the better.

What i also noticed last weekend is, that for some reason singing got harder for me since the Botox wore off. I can not hit notes properly and especially I have problems hitting the right "distance" between two notes. So trying to sing a C first and then an E, I might end up with C-G instead. So I underestimate the pitch change that will happen. Its also kind of hard to hold a pitch. My guess is that this has to do a lot with those vocal tremors that Dr kim diagnosed in me and either the Clonazepam is just not strong enough to bring them down, or I got used to the clonazepam and it does not have enough effect anymore. I dread a bit the moment when the pills run out and even that little support will stop. I asked - or offered - to get another Botox injection done locally at some experts here, but Dr Kim insisted that the piss should be enough. I guess I need to learn how to deal with that tremor without Botox, otherwise I would need more Botox every 3 months which is not really a great solution either.

[iKate]

Yeah, your voice does sound a bit creaky like it is taking a lot of effort.

What did Dr Kim say about it? Do you think you'd be headed for a revision?

[kwala]

Ok. Time for the 6 month update:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s174Nl5ghVrN (german)
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Ky21g3EO0W (english)

Pitch in speaking seems to be at about 170 Hz in the english clip, about 180 in the german clip. When reading, pitch goes up to 185 or higher on average. The lows while speaking are at 140 Hz, sometimes 150 Hz. That means this is the lowest pitched sylabils or words I use. if I consciously try to speak monotonously at a relaxed pitch, about 140-160 Hz average is where I would end up with, depending on the day and time. So the average pitch really depends a lot on the voice melody and intonation.

What bugs me is that my voice still sounds like I have a cold or slight laryngitis. People notice this a lot and ask me about it, which is something that just annoys me as I was hoping to not sound like my voice has a damage after the surgery. I need to see if the next 6 months will make a difference and change this to the better.

What i also noticed last weekend is, that for some reason singing got harder for me since the Botox wore off. I can not hit notes properly and especially I have problems hitting the right "distance" between two notes. So trying to sing a C first and then an E, I might end up with C-G instead. So I underestimate the pitch change that will happen. Its also kind of hard to hold a pitch. My guess is that this has to do a lot with those vocal tremors that Dr kim diagnosed in me and either the Clonazepam is just not strong enough to bring them down, or I got used to the clonazepam and it does not have enough effect anymore. I dread a bit the moment when the pills run out and even that little support will stop. I asked - or offered - to get another Botox injection done locally at some experts here, but Dr Kim insisted that the piss should be enough. I guess I need to learn how to deal with that tremor without Botox, otherwise I would need more Botox every 3 months which is not really a great solution either.

Well, first I'll just say that despite your issues, you still sound female without a question- so that's great.  But, yes, I hear the issues you're talking about.  Your voice just sounds a little bit weak and breathy.  Do you have trouble raising your voice in loud situations?  I'm no expert, but in my singing lessons, when I can't produce a clear tone it's often a result of incomplete cord closure.  My teacher has me hum through a straw and make sounds like a trumpet while blowing a lot of air through that tiny space.  Obviously your issue might be a medical one or there may still be some healing necessary, but it might be worth a shot to try this a few times a day see if it gives you more clarity.  There's nothing wrong with having a breathy female voice, and you actually sound quite nice, but I can understand why you would want a little more power and clarity in many situations.

[Lebedinaja]

Ok. Time for the 6 month update:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s174Nl5ghVrN (german)
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Ky21g3EO0W (english)

Pitch in speaking seems to be at about 170 Hz in the english clip, about 180 in the german clip. When reading, pitch goes up to 185 or higher on average. The lows while speaking are at 140 Hz, sometimes 150 Hz. That means this is the lowest pitched sylabils or words I use. if I consciously try to speak monotonously at a relaxed pitch, about 140-160 Hz average is where I would end up with, depending on the day and time. So the average pitch really depends a lot on the voice melody and intonation.

What bugs me is that my voice still sounds like I have a cold or slight laryngitis. People notice this a lot and ask me about it, which is something that just annoys me as I was hoping to not sound like my voice has a damage after the surgery. I need to see if the next 6 months will make a difference and change this to the better.

What i also noticed last weekend is, that for some reason singing got harder for me since the Botox wore off. I can not hit notes properly and especially I have problems hitting the right "distance" between two notes. So trying to sing a C first and then an E, I might end up with C-G instead. So I underestimate the pitch change that will happen. Its also kind of hard to hold a pitch. My guess is that this has to do a lot with those vocal tremors that Dr kim diagnosed in me and either the Clonazepam is just not strong enough to bring them down, or I got used to the clonazepam and it does not have enough effect anymore. I dread a bit the moment when the pills run out and even that little support will stop. I asked - or offered - to get another Botox injection done locally at some experts here, but Dr Kim insisted that the piss should be enough. I guess I need to learn how to deal with that tremor without Botox, otherwise I would need more Botox every 3 months which is not really a great solution either.

hört sich meiner unerfahrenen Meinung nach absolut nach einer schönen Frauenstimme an. Das Deutsche finde ich persönlich ganz schön, dort betonst du die Wörter schön und es ist auch ne schöne Sprechmelodie drin.
Beim Englischen hattest du glaube ich Schwierigkeiten zwischen entfernten Tonhöhen zu wechseln, ich hab absolut keine Ahnung über Stimmen, aber durch Training / weitere Heilung sollte das besser werden oder?

Trotzdem, hört sich nach ner schönen Stimme an 

[anjaq]

Thanks for the positive comments.

I don#t think a revision is possible that would help with this problem. A revision at Yeson only would be something to be considered if pitch does not go up enough, I imagine. I did send in the recordings to Dr Kim and they said to keep doing the exercises and that my voice is feminized and I should not get any other surgeries because they would make the voice worse, not better.

An incomplete glottal closure certainly is a part of the problem. I did have that issue before VFS and now it is amplified. We are trying to solve this in voice therapy with airflow exercises, but the success so far is limited, I believe. Another issue might be the vocal tremor that Dr Kim diagnosed. I could see in one of the last ENT video recordings that one vocal chord was apparently pulled to the side by some muscle, causing an opening when it was supposed to be closed. This could be caused by unwanted muscle contractions (the diagosis of Dr Kim was "spasmodic dysphonia").

I definitely need a full and clear voice that can have volume since I need to give presentations or lessons at work. This is in fact why I chose Dr Kim over German surgeons, because in Germany it is rather common after a VFS to have a breathy voice and I wanted to avoid that.

@ Lebedinaja: Danke dir. Ja auf deutsch gefällt es mir in der Aufnahme auch besser, da sind aber auch ein paar Tage dazwischen. Allgemein habe ich ein bisschen das Problem die richtigen Tonlagen zu treffen. Entweder lande ich zu hoch und "quietsche" zu viel, oder es bleibt zu monoton. In der letzten Aufnahme habe ich es geschafft das ganz gut zu kontrollieren und in einem breiten Bereich zu bleiben. Ich hoffe derzeit auch vor allem auf erfolgreiches Training und noch weitere Heilung im nächsten halben Jahr, nach einem Jahr sollte aber die Heilung abgeschlossen sein.

[kwala]

Thanks for the positive comments.

I don#t think a revision is possible that would help with this problem. A revision at Yeson only would be something to be considered if pitch does not go up enough, I imagine. I did send in the recordings to Dr Kim and they said to keep doing the exercises and that my voice is feminized and I should not get any other surgeries because they would make the voice worse, not better.

An incomplete glottal closure certainly is a part of the problem. I did have that issue before VFS and now it is amplified. We are trying to solve this in voice therapy with airflow exercises, but the success so far is limited, I believe. Another issue might be the vocal tremor that Dr Kim diagnosed. I could see in one of the last ENT video recordings that one vocal chord was apparently pulled to the side by some muscle, causing an opening when it was supposed to be closed. This could be caused by unwanted muscle contractions (the diagosis of Dr Kim was "spasmodic dysphonia").

I definitely need a full and clear voice that can have volume since I need to give presentations or lessons at work. This is in fact why I chose Dr Kim over German surgeons, because in Germany it is rather common after a VFS to have a breathy voice and I wanted to avoid that.

@ Lebedinaja: Danke dir. Ja auf deutsch gefällt es mir in der Aufnahme auch besser, da sind aber auch ein paar Tage dazwischen. Allgemein habe ich ein bisschen das Problem die richtigen Tonlagen zu treffen. Entweder lande ich zu hoch und "quietsche" zu viel, oder es bleibt zu monoton. In der letzten Aufnahme habe ich es geschafft das ganz gut zu kontrollieren und in einem breiten Bereich zu bleiben. Ich hoffe derzeit auch vor allem auf erfolgreiches Training und noch weitere Heilung im nächsten halben Jahr, nach einem Jahr sollte aber die Heilung abgeschlossen sein.

Well, it seems like the surgery was a total success in terms of feminization, but that's too bad that it may have amplified a preexisting problem.  A shame that therapy hasn't been that helpful so far, but maybe with time it will be.  Wishing you the best!

[anjaq]

Well, therapy is helping. It did help me a lot before VFS to get rid of that double gap in the vocal folds, but of course the improvements from 8 weeks post op to 4 months were strong, then from month 4 to 5 less to and so on. I still need to learn how to properly use my new voice instrument and I guess this will take some more time and experimentation and exercises. Yeson talk about a year... so, still some way to go.

[Dena]

I don't know if this will be any help, but as messed up as my voice currently is, I have been taking a few pitch checks and fining myself in the 160 to 170 hz range, lower that I should be. I put my hand on my larynx and I found the source of the problem. The no speaking and light use of my voice I have gotten lazy and I am not bringing my larynx up high enough. When I do, I move up to 210hz or better, the upper end of what Dr Haben said I might reach. I guess I am going to need to work on that when my voice has recovered enough.

[anjaq]

Hmm - I am not sure the whole moving around the larynx thing is such a great idea. If I remember it correctly, Dr Kim actually advises against it and insists on using a natural and relaxed voice. On the other hand he talks about shaping the resonance with voice training, so its a bit of a paradox.

I somehow need to find my new voice and learn how to use it best. Part of that is at least for now to accept that it is a low female (Alto) voice and that this is ok, even though Dr Kim said it would be higher - its just a statistical suggestion that increase will be 75 Hz. For some it is 40 , for some 75 and for some over 100 - on average it may be 75, but one cannot guarantee it. So my thought is, I probably should accept that it is only 40 Hz for me and focus on using that 40 Hz gain and my new voice as best as I can. Its a bit weird because I feel like I am sounding so low if I use my voice effectively and fully, but I guess better to have a bit lower voice than to sound breathy all the time. And who knows - maybe something will change with time and once I learned how to use my voice at the lower pitches again, I can also use higher ones. The difficulty is, that my voice seems to respond a lot better at medium pitches like 180-210 Hz now than at 170 Hz although it is easier for me to use the 170 Hz. Its hard to explain :\

[ReDucks]

Hmm - I am not sure the whole moving around the larynx thing is such a great idea. If I remember it correctly, Dr Kim actually advises against it and insists on using a natural and relaxed voice. On the other hand he talks about shaping the resonance with voice training, so its a bit of a paradox.

I somehow need to find my new voice and learn how to use it best. Part of that is at least for now to accept that it is a low female (Alto) voice and that this is ok, even though Dr Kim said it would be higher - its just a statistical suggestion that increase will be 75 Hz. For some it is 40 , for some 75 and for some over 100 - on average it may be 75, but one cannot guarantee it. So my thought is, I probably should accept that it is only 40 Hz for me and focus on using that 40 Hz gain and my new voice as best as I can. Its a bit weird because I feel like I am sounding so low if I use my voice effectively and fully, but I guess better to have a bit lower voice than to sound breathy all the time. And who knows - maybe something will change with time and once I learned how to use my voice at the lower pitches again, I can also use higher ones. The difficulty is, that my voice seems to respond a lot better at medium pitches like 180-210 Hz now than at 170 Hz although it is easier for me to use the 170 Hz. Its hard to explain :\

All that aside, Anja, you sound lovely!

[anjaq]

Aw thank you, ReDucks  

[Dena]

I didn't have much of an option as to using my natural voice. My lowest chest pitch was 80 Hz so maybe I had a speaking voice of around 100 Hz. The best push I could expect was between 60 Hz and 80 Hz somewhat limited by the fact the longer cord would be what the percentage and pitch was calculated of. Using the shorter cord, I may have a 50% tie. This figures out to a 160 Hz to 170 hz working voice which would be a pretty low female voce almost out of the bottom of the female range. Switching to the mouth voice pushed me over 200 Hz which while not high, is solid in the female range. It would be nice to use the "natural voice" but I have been using the mouth voice for about 35 years so in a way, it is my natural voice
On top of that, Dr Haben said the surgical voice should be used with the mouth voice so that is good enough for me,

[Teslagirl]

Hmm - I am not sure the whole moving around the larynx thing is such a great idea. If I remember it correctly, Dr Kim actually advises against it and insists on using a natural and relaxed voice. On the other hand he talks about shaping the resonance with voice training, so its a bit of a paradox.

Yes, I think I'm still doing the larynx thing when the whole point was to relax as you say.

I somehow need to find my new voice and learn how to use it best. Part of that is at least for now to accept that it is a low female (Alto) voice and that this is ok, even though Dr Kim said it would be higher - its just a statistical suggestion that increase will be 75 Hz. For some it is 40 , for some 75 and for some over 100 - on average it may be 75, but one cannot guarantee it. So my thought is, I probably should accept that it is only 40 Hz for me and focus on using that 40 Hz gain and my new voice as best as I can. Its a bit weird because I feel like I am sounding so low if I use my voice effectively and fully, but I guess better to have a bit lower voice than to sound breathy all the time. And who knows - maybe something will change with time and once I learned how to use my voice at the lower pitches again, I can also use higher ones. The difficulty is, that my voice seems to respond a lot better at medium pitches like 180-210 Hz now than at 170 Hz although it is easier for me to use the 170 Hz. Its hard to explain :\

Well I still think you sound absolutely female, even if the pitch increase is not yet what you'd like. Do you think you'd eventually ask Dr Kim to look at it again if you don't get an acceptable pitch increase? I could see myself going back again when I have enough money if things don't improve after a year.

[anjaq]

Dena, I am also not sure what my "natural voice" or what the "mouth voice" is - I basically have one way of talking that has developed over 17 years. And now I have to learn a different way, unless I intend to stay breathy or sound somewhat off forever. I am not sure if I need more control (do a better mouth voice) or if I should shomehow unlearn some things and use a more natural voice with less control. I guess I need to experiment and maybe I actually should start reading books aloud and record myself and then try some things with the voice and listen back to the recordings to see which one sounds best, least breathy... I am not sure. My voice therapist seems to be of little help with that. I think no voice therapist is ready to deal with this kind of surgery, so they just apply some general exercises to the problems that are noticeable. I can just hope that it will somehow work. I actually considered switching therapist at least try another one for a few sessions to see if she would have different ideas. But that is not really easy to do unless I want to pay myself.

Sarah - yes, my voice sounds female, but that was not the only point in my original plan. My voice sounded >90% female before the VFS as well, even at rather low pitches, I was told. So this is not something that changed with the VFS. My hopes for the VFS was to change a bit the way the voice sounds, to increase pitch significantly and to heal in a way that would not leave me breathy - this has so far only partially worked out. In part the issues I still have certainly are mental - learning how to use the voice properly to use it in the right pitch area ("sweet spot") which is probably a bit higher than i normally speak now, unlearn whatever I am doing that makes my voice breathy,...
I dont want and cannot afford any revision. The pitch is an alto female voice, a bit higher than before and definitely much higher than where I believe my original pitch was. I would not want to risk more breathiness or other dysphonia with more surgery - for now I am just hoping that the healing in the remaining time until the 12 months are over is going well enough to clean up my voice. If I have a relaxed 170-180 Hz speaking voice that is without dysphonia, that would already be great and I would be happy. It would more or less almost be what I originally said I wanted. i never wanted to be >220 Hz or something. i am 1m73 and of "athletic" built, so a voice should not be too high in my case anyways.

[iKate]

I agree, that even though the voice quality is not 100%, I would not in a million years gender Anja's voice as anything but a woman's. I guess we strive for perfection and that can be frustrating but sometimes we just have to deal with it.

[Teslagirl]

Sarah - yes, my voice sounds female, but that was not the only point in my original plan. My voice sounded >90% female before the VFS as well, even at rather low pitches, I was told. So this is not something that changed with the VFS. My hopes for the VFS was to change a bit the way the voice sounds, to increase pitch significantly and to heal in a way that would not leave me breathy - this has so far only partially worked out. In part the issues I still have certainly are mental - learning how to use the voice properly to use it in the right pitch area ("sweet spot") which is probably a bit higher than i normally speak now, unlearn whatever I am doing that makes my voice breathy,...
I dont want and cannot afford any revision. The pitch is an alto female voice, a bit higher than before and definitely much higher than where I believe my original pitch was. I would not want to risk more breathiness or other dysphonia with more surgery - for now I am just hoping that the healing in the remaining time until the 12 months are over is going well enough to clean up my voice. If I have a relaxed 170-180 Hz speaking voice that is without dysphonia, that would already be great and I would be happy. It would more or less almost be what I originally said I wanted. i never wanted to be >220 Hz or something. i am 1m73 and of "athletic" built, so a voice should not be too high in my case anyways.

I also wanted a significant pitch change. I can live with how I sound now, but in my heart I hoped I'd sound something like Jenny, even if it wouldn't have been particularly age appropriate. I also wanted to sing soprano, or at least sing and not sound like a male. I think at 2 months we can try singing?

[iKate]

I think at 2 months we can try singing?

Don't count on it. The little singing I've tried, I sound like the worst American Idol or Britain's Got Talent contestant. Maybe not quite William Hung but close. I could sing before but an octave lower. I sing at almost an octave higher but the highest pitches are only becoming gradually accessible. But it will get better, just need to get used to the new range and exercises may bring the range back. So don't think that at 2 months some switch will turn on and enable your ability to sing. Nope.