Who wants to be a transwoman?

[RebeccaFog]

I didn't transition to become a woman, I was always a woman, except when I was a girl. I transitioned to make my outer body match my inner spirit. The fact that I am a woman has been confirmed countless times by others, especially women. I am not in denial about anything, I know what a am. A woman.

And after SRS and I really get my voice down, I will deny that I am trans to anyone except those I might become intimate with. I don't know, I don't want to tell someone else what she is or what to feel but it seems that most transsexuals have this firm belief that they are women, pure and simple.

Utterly perfect!  you get a cookie today!

tink

Stop it, Tink. You're scaring me!!        (the avatar)

[Nero]

I don't think a transsexual who calls him/herself simply a man or woman, is denying their chromosomes or their transition. Unless of course, they are completely delusional.
Currently, I call myself a man, but also an ftm transsexual. I expect after transition, I will simply be a man with female genitalia.
Some people wish to keep the transsexual label. Others do not.

[Elizabeth]

There is a difference between how one feels about themselves and what they are. To say one feels like a woman is one thing, to say one is a woman is another. Women don't transition to be women. This is just a denial, in my opinion.

In response...

This site is kind of annoying because they use Harry Benjamin's name to make it look all official when really it's just one person's opinion. A person with no credentials, I might add. This person makes up their terminology and makes no citations for the things they say or claim. I think sites like this do everyone a huge disservice. This site is really promoting what they believe transsexualism is and it's contrary to what Harry Benjamin himself wrote and I have posted here on this site. This is just another person trying to pigeon hole people and call anyone not like them a sexual fetishist. Very disappointing.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Insert your name instead of Harry Benjamin's and it fits what you are saying. You are are every bit as wrong as people who tell you you are not transsexual. Other people have the same right to identify as women that you have to identify as transsexual and not as a woman. If telling people they aren't transsexual isn't acceptable around here neither should telling people they aren't women.

I think perhaps you have misunderstood me. I agree with you that identifying as a woman is every person's right. I do so myself. That was kinda my point to Katia and living in stealth. I expect every transsexual to identify as the gender they are transitioning to. I don't normally tell people I am transsexual, I tell them I am a woman.

Having said that, there is a difference between saying "I am a woman" and saying "I am not transsexual". I am a woman, but I was not born with a woman's body. That means that I am transsexual. I don't have any problem at all with anyone proclaiming they are the gender they are transitioning to. What I have a problem with is denying one's transsexuality. In my honest opinion it is a denial to say one is not transsexual, when one is.

I am sorry for not choosing my words more carefully and making myself clear. What I object to is denying one transsexuality in an attempt of elevating one's status, i.e. "I am not a transsexual, I am a woman". This is a false statement if one is born with male genitalia. It is a denial. Wouldn't we all like to be considered the gender we feel ourselves to be? But if we were, we would not be here having this nice little chat.

Again, I am sorry for not making myself more clear. I am in no way suggesting that anyone should not feel how they feel. I just think we have to be honest about what we are. Really I think this is all just a matter of semantics. The only thing I am against is denying the true nature of what we are. Maybe I have it all wrong and it's a good thing, but to me it just seems like another denial that serves no purpose other than to blind us about who we are and what we need to do.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Nero]

There is a difference between how one feels about themselves and what they are. To say one feels like a woman is one thing, to say one is a woman is another. Women don't transition to be women. This is just a denial, in my opinion.

In response...

This site is kind of annoying because they use Harry Benjamin's name to make it look all official when really it's just one person's opinion. A person with no credentials, I might add. This person makes up their terminology and makes no citations for the things they say or claim. I think sites like this do everyone a huge disservice. This site is really promoting what they believe transsexualism is and it's contrary to what Harry Benjamin himself wrote and I have posted here on this site. This is just another person trying to pigeon hole people and call anyone not like them a sexual fetishist. Very disappointing.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Insert your name instead of Harry Benjamin's and it fits what you are saying. You are are every bit as wrong as people who tell you you are not transsexual. Other people have the same right to identify as women that you have to identify as transsexual and not as a woman. If telling people they aren't transsexual isn't acceptable around here neither should telling people they aren't women.

I think perhaps you have misunderstood me. I agree with you that identifying as a woman is every person's right. I do so myself. That was kinda my point to Katia and living in stealth. I expect every transsexual to identify as the gender they are transitioning to. I don't normally tell people I am transsexual, I tell them I am a woman.

Having said that, there is a difference between saying "I am a woman" and saying "I am not transsexual". I am a woman, but I was not born with a woman's body. That means that I am transsexual. I don't have any problem at all with anyone proclaiming they are the gender they are transitioning to. What I have a problem with is denying one's transsexuality. In my honest opinion it is a denial to say one is not transsexual, when one is.

I am sorry for not choosing my words more carefully and making myself clear. What I object to is denying one transsexuality in an attempt of elevating one's status, i.e. "I am not a transsexual, I am a woman". This is a false statement if one is born with male genitalia. It is a denial. Wouldn't we all like to be considered the gender we feel ourselves to be? But if we were, we would not be here having this nice little chat.

Again, I am sorry for not making myself more clear. I am in no way suggesting that anyone should not feel how they feel. I just think we have to be honest about what we are. Really I think this is all just a matter of semantics. The only thing I am against is denying the true nature of what we are. Maybe I have it all wrong and it's a good thing, but to me it just seems like another denial that serves no purpose other than to blind us about who we are and what we need to do.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Thanks for clarifying. I think we're on the same page with this one. I am a man, but I would never deny being a transman.

[Elizabeth]

There is a difference between how one feels about themselves and what they are. To say one feels like a woman is one thing, to say one is a woman is another. Women don't transition to be women. This is just a denial, in my opinion.

In response...

This site is kind of annoying because they use Harry Benjamin's name to make it look all official when really it's just one person's opinion. A person with no credentials, I might add. This person makes up their terminology and makes no citations for the things they say or claim. I think sites like this do everyone a huge disservice. This site is really promoting what they believe transsexualism is and it's contrary to what Harry Benjamin himself wrote and I have posted here on this site. This is just another person trying to pigeon hole people and call anyone not like them a sexual fetishist. Very disappointing.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Insert your name instead of Harry Benjamin's and it fits what you are saying. You are are every bit as wrong as people who tell you you are not transsexual. Other people have the same right to identify as women that you have to identify as transsexual and not as a woman. If telling people they aren't transsexual isn't acceptable around here neither should telling people they aren't women.

First of all, that site is claiming to be an official site, when really it is just a site about one person's opinion. They make it look like it was written from some authoritative information, when really it's just the authors opinion.

There is a difference between a person identifying as a woman and actually being a woman. Denying one is transsexual is a denial, it's not hypocritical. I have never denied what I have written is my opinion. I have not tried to pass it off peer reviewed work. And then to misquote me from another thread, and smite me because you don't understand what I am saying in an attempt somehow make your own point more valid, is a waste of my time.

I believe my reputation stands on it's own merits. A smite from someone with an agenda does not hurt nor bother me. But remember, this is a dangerous game you embark upon. You now have said that smite is what you do to anyone you disagree with. Just remember you set the stage.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Nikki]

Elizabeth,

If the below statements were intended to say that "I agree with you that identifying as a woman is every person's right... ...I don't have any problem at all with anyone proclaiming they are the gender they are transitioning to. What I have a problem with is denying one's transsexuality... ...What I object to is denying one transsexuality in an attempt of elevating one's status" I most certainly did not get that from what you said.

If you were born with a male body, you are not a woman. You are a transsexual. Stating that you are not is just another denial. All the denials in the world, all the proclaiming to be a woman, will do nothing to make you an actual woman.

There is a difference between how one feels about themselves and what they are. To say one feels like a woman is one thing, to say one is a woman is another. Women don't transition to be women.

"I am not a transsexual, I am a woman". This is a false statement if one is born with male genitalia.

I do not consider myself "a transsexual" I consider myself "a woman". To me transition is a cure not an identity. However do I consider myself any better than you because I don't identify as "a transsexual"? Absolutely not: post op, pre op, GG, non op, woman, denial, whatever they aren't tiers we achieve, a GG is not better than a pre-op, a pre-op is not better than someone in denial. That said I do wish I had 1/10th your courage to just be myself damn the torpedoes.

Do I have an agenda? Yes. Am I playing any games? No.

What we, what many people and communities in this world need is simple acceptance for who we are. That doesn't mean giving up your opinions, but it does mean you don't need to tell them you think they are wrong. Do I personally believe Kate is a "Faery" or "Changeling"? No Would I tell her I don't believe she is? No(except to make this point, Sorry Kate)

If someone tells you "You are not a transsexual, in my opinion." does appending ",in my opinion" make you feel they accept you in a way that just saying "You are not a transsexual." doesn't? To me both statements are opinions and both are telling the recipient I don't accept your belief about yourself. Appending the words ",in my opinion" doesn't modify what was said.

Yes I have an agenda, I want to see every man, woman, transsexual, faery, or anything else someone identifies as simply accepted for who they are without our community telling them no you aren't because... <insert reason>

Our community and every other community will benefit greatly if the world ever becomes accepting of one another. But that change doesn't start with our family and friends or with anti discrimination laws as important as those may be. It starts right here in our own community. Only when we can look at each other and say I accept you for who you are can we go to others and say accept me for who I am. As long as we bicker among ourselves about who's a woman, who's a transsexual, or any other rulers how can we go to the rest of the world and say accept me for the woman or man I am simply because I say I am?

I didn't smite you simply because I disagreed with you, I'm an opinionated bitch that does a lot of disagreeing. I smote you because I read your post as challenging Yvonne's identity in a way that I strongly believe fundamentally harms our community  and our world, and when I called you on it you stood by what you said. If you think smiting is a "dangerous game" smite away. I don't have a whooping 8 reputation points because I try to say what's popular and collect brownie points.

[Elizabeth]

You may also call yourself a rubber ball. You can call yourself whatever you want. But just because you say it, don't make it so. All of us MtF transsexuals are women. That is how you know. However we were not born with women's bodies. Just as we weren't born rubber balls. Now if you want to call yourself a rubber ball, you can, but don't expect me to agree with you that I see a rubber ball, when I don't.

And that is precisely what you are doing. I am not saying anyone can not identify anyway they want, just don't expect everyone is going to go along with it because you might be offended if we don't. That is why you smited me. I never said, "hey Yvonne, don't identify as a woman". I said you can call yourself a woman all you want, but to me, if you were born with a man's body but feel like a woman, you are transsexual.

I mean, are you going to use smite to force everyone to see things your way? We have women who are born women, we have men who are born men, that feel good about their gender. Then we have people with women's bodies that feel like they are men and people born with male bodies that feel female, those people are transsexuals. They can say they are women or men, they can choose to believe it. And smiting me won't make them believe it any more. It also will not intimidate me and change my view. We are what we are.

Love always,
Elizbeth

[NatalieC]

Smite Smite Smite to all of you! Ha Ha

[melissa90299]

I am going to say this one more time. I wasn't born a man. I was never a man. If anyone wants to think she was born a man, so be it, shout it to the rooftops. But I was never a man.

Posted on: July 01, 2007, 08:28:25 PM

Y We are what we are.

Love always,
Elizbeth

No, you are what you are.

I am what I am which is obviously fundamentally different than you.

[tinkerbell]

I am going to say this one more time. I wasn't born a man. I was never a man. If anyone wants to think she was born a man, so be it, shout it to the rooftops. But I was never a man.

Posted on: July 01, 2007, 08:28:25 PM

Y We are what we are.

Love always,
Elizbeth

No, you are what you are.

I am what I am which is obviously fundamentally different than you.

tink

[melissa90299]

From elizabeth's home page

Hi, I am Elizabeth.
I am a 45 year old man, father of 4 and remarried a year ago.
I am now out of the closet, and have really been learning who I am.
I am a man who has always felt like a woman on the inside.  I am a
Transexual. While I don't know if I will ever become a woman, I have now  been dressing
as one full time for over two years now. I have been accepted by my
kids, their friends, my friends, and pretty much the public at large.
In fact, I really feel I get treated better dressed a woman, than as a man.

Liz, I have never, ever felt like this AT ALL. I have always known that I was female, unequivocally and to the very core of my being. Obviously, you have something very different going on. I suggest, as I am taught in my recovery, that you deal with your issues and let us deal with ours.

It is really aggravating to come here for support and be told that we are in denial by someone who is not experiencing the same feelings that we are.

[Nero]

This whole thing just comes down to semantics. I am a man. I was always a man (or boy).
I was born in a female body. I have to transition.
I don't really get this whole debate. I mean transwomen aren't denying they were born in a male body, right?
So, what's this all about, anyway?

[melissa90299]

The fundamental difference is that we (those who oppose Eliz POV) consider ourselves women, who jut happen to have this condition while Elizabeth considers herself a man who has decided to transition to become a woman.

[Nikki]

You may also call yourself a rubber ball. You can call yourself whatever you want. But just because you say it, don't make it so. All of us MtF transsexuals are women. That is how you know. However we were not born with women's bodies. Just as we weren't born rubber balls. Now if you want to call yourself a rubber ball, you can, but don't expect me to agree with you that I see a rubber ball, when I don't.

And that is precisely what you are doing. I am not saying anyone can not identify anyway they want, just don't expect everyone is going to go along with it because you might be offended if we don't. That is why you smited me. I never said, "hey Yvonne, don't identify as a woman". I said you can call yourself a woman all you want, but to me, if you were born with a man's body but feel like a woman, you are transsexual.

I never told you to agree with anyone. And quite clearly said the opposite.

I mean, are you going to use smite to force everyone to see things your way? We have women who are born women, we have men who are born men, that feel good about their gender. Then we have people with women's bodies that feel like they are men and people born with male bodies that feel female, those people are transsexuals. They can say they are women or men, they can choose to believe it. And smiting me won't make them believe it any more. It also will not intimidate me and change my view. We are what we are.

Smite is neither a tool of force nor intimidation.

Negative smites should not be used unless a post clearly violates the rules, policies of the site, or the spirit of our community.

I detailed to BeverlyAnn where I saw a problem with your post.

However smite is apparently a very bad tool to use under any situation. The smite has totally derailed the situation and taken front and center stage, clouding any ability to discuss anything else.

[Nero]

The fundamental difference is that we (those who oppose Eliz POV) consider ourselves women, who jut happen to have this condition while Elizabeth considers herself a man who has decided to transition to become a woman.

Thanks for clarifying. That's how I feel too; I'm a man who was born with a condition that caused me to be labeled something I am not. I am not a woman who decided she'd rather be a man. I always was a man.

[RebeccaFog]

In my opinion, the gist of the question is "who identifies as a transwoman, and why would you do so?"

There are like about 2 possible answers:

1.  [NO] I am a woman and do not identify as a transwoman. I identify as a woman and see no need to incorporate my birth error into my identity. I take pride entirely in my womanhood.

2.  [YES] I am a transwoman because I am incorporating all of my experiences into who I am now. I identify as such and I do it as a point of personal pride.

   Neither answer is wrong.  Neither answer infers that the other answer is wrong. Once you choose an answer, there is no reason or need to worry about what someone else has answered.

   I do not understand why some of you are concerned over others' answers.  One of the perfect answers was Katia's. Direct, to the point, about herself with no inferences or judgment concerning the alternative answers.

   To be honest, I am not a TS and maybe my Null Gendered brain is missing something, however, I believe in peace.
    Really, I'm only saying this because I don't understand the tensions.  I'm not taking sides or picking on anybody.

[Dorothy]

Im a woman.  Do I need to use the term trans?  if your answer is yes, do I, then, need to tell you that Im also an ex-bulimic, a cancer survivor, a recovering alcoholic, a woman with a heart illness, a woman with Lupus?
I dont think anybody would care to hear about my medical conditions unless that person can medically help me.

[Elizabeth]

The fundamental difference is that we (those who oppose Eliz POV) consider ourselves women, who jut happen to have this condition while Elizabeth considers herself a man who has decided to transition to become a woman.

Thanks for telling me what I am and how I feel. I am sure you must know better than me. For some reason it bothers you that I am not afraid to admit I was born with a male body. As far a making decisions, you are just being insulting now, not much point of continuing this debate.

You know how to get the last word in every argument?

"Oh, you must be right".

I guess you are right. You are a woman, that is a vagina between your legs and you really are not on a transsexual web site trying to make yourself better than others here. I am a man who is different than you, because of course, you are a woman. I guess all that money for transition can be spent on something else, since you won't be needing it, since of course, you are already a woman. Perhaps you could give it to me, one of the unfortunate people born with a male body who has "decided" to become a woman.

Fundamentally different? You bet we are, but is has nothing to do with how we were born or what we feel about our gender. Again, my apologies, I guess I am just not as good as all of you who were born women. Somehow I will have to deal with this male body and the challenges it presents, without your guidence, since you obviously don't know what it's like having the wrong body.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[louise000]

As the originator of this thread I am going to wind it up right now. It's becoming rather nasty with members trading insults. It was intended to be an informed debate. Sorry to have to do this.
Louise