Would it make me cis?

[Exus]

It's your past, you decide what to do with your secret. We all have them..plus it's a private matter that only when you feel secure enough with someone, you'll share. I do agree though that once you find someone you love and you think they're the one, tell them before you take a step further.
Still, when I hear stories of people feeling "betrayed" once they learn a close friend or bf/gf are transsexual, I find it ridiculous. I don't see at what point must I point out "oh look, I'm transsexual, I was born a female, so you shouldn't be attracted to me or befriend me because of my birth condition, I'm not "normal" or what you consider normal at least" if I do get to the point in telling you, is because I believe I can trust you enough and like you enough to let you in, I expect you to feel honored, it's a rare thing I personally would do.
It's not being ashamed of being transsexual, I just believe that people need to stop so self-centered and ignorant and stop judging others based on what makes them different. I wouldn't judge you base on your race, height, gender, sexual orientation or disabilities, so why should you judge me before you get to fully see the real "me"

Man, our generation needs to change what our past generation couldn't change.

[Cindy]

It's your past, you decide what to do with your secret. We all have them..plus it's a private matter that only when you feel secure enough with someone, you'll share. I do agree though that once you find someone you love and you think they're the one, tell them before you take a step further.
Still, when I hear stories of people feeling "betrayed" once they learn a close friend or bf/gf are transsexual, I find it ridiculous. I don't see at what point must I point out "oh look, I'm transsexual, I was born a female, so you shouldn't be attracted to me or befriend me because of my birth condition, I'm not "normal" or what you consider normal at least" if I do get to the point in telling you, is because I believe I can trust you enough and like you enough to let you in, I expect you to feel honored, it's a rare thing I personally would do.
It's not being ashamed of being transsexual, I just believe that people need to stop so self-centered and ignorant and stop judging others based on what makes them different. I wouldn't judge you base on your race, height, gender, sexual orientation or disabilities, so why should you judge me before you get to fully see the real "me"

Man, our generation needs to change what our past generation couldn't change.

+1

[Doctorwho?]

Having been somewhat brutally pulled up on this very point in another thread the other day can I just say that I TOTALLY 100% support this argument.

There comes a point, and only you can tell when that point is reached, when your past becomes just that, merely an interesting footnote.

We were all once babies - no one tells you that because you have once been a baby therefore you must go on identifying as a baby all your life or be accused of being dishonest, aggressive, ashamed, or in denial. Yes I accept that some people get to skip having been trans or intersex, but that still doesn't mean that anyone has the right to force you to permanently identify in a way that is no longer relevant to who you are.

I was highly irritated when someone, who thankfully subsequently appears to have left the site, tried to do it to me. they did it on the basis of an unfortunate misunderstanding between myself and another user (my friend Jen) which ironically we had already pretty well patched up privately.

So yes - we all have pasts - sometimes out of respect or desire to trust we may choose to let people in. That decision is surely ours to make and theirs to respect.

(By which I mean realising that we are not defined by our past. Either that or the whole concept of transition becomes meaningless, because if you WERE permanently defined by your past then we would ALL still be what we were born, a concept that I find to be patently untrue.)

[Brandon]

Having been somewhat brutally pulled up on this very point in another thread the other day can I just say that I TOTALLY 100% support this argument.

There comes a point, and only you can tell when that point is reached, when your past becomes just that, merely an interesting footnote.

We were all once babies - no one tells you that because you have once been a baby therefore you must go on identifying as a baby all your life or be accused of being dishonest, aggressive, ashamed, or in denial. Yes I accept that some people get to skip having been trans or intersex, but that still doesn't mean that anyone has the right to force you to permanently identify in a way that is no longer relevant to who you are.

I was highly irritated when someone, who thankfully subsequently appears to have left the site, tried to do it to me. they did it on the basis of an unfortunate misunderstanding between myself and another user (my friend Jen) which ironically we had already pretty well patched up privately.

So yes - we all have pasts - sometimes out of respect or desire to trust we may choose to let people in. That decision is surely ours to make and theirs to respect.

(By which I mean realising that we are not defined by our past. Either that or the whole concept of transition becomes meaningless, because if you WERE permanently defined by your past then we would ALL still be what we were born, a concept that I find to be patently untrue.)

Exactly my past is my past the only one who needs to know is my future gf/wife that's it, excellent point about the baby thing

[Jack_M]

I think we're getting off topic and into a whole new discussion. It's not about whether you need to tell people, that's a standard no. Stealth is fine. Whatever floats your boat. I'm 50/50 because there's some people I still talk to or work with that knew me by female name, but anyone new just knows me as Jack and that's it. You don't need to advertise that you're trans. But are you going to be cis? No. However, it's a relatively unknown word outside trans circles so why would you need to fixate on that? It's used in the LGBT community to differenciate between being born matching sex and gender and born with a gender differing from sex. I personally feel that it is important to clarify the difference and keep the definition intact.  To strive toward being cis is extremely insulting to me, like being trans is abnormal and you want to be normal. That determination to have a title you can't have is insulting and is exactly why the term cis was identified as being required for better differentiation between us. Becoming cis is an unachievable goal.

But there's nothing wrong with that. Cis is just a definition for us really. It's not like you have guys walking around that have nothing to do with the LGBT community discussing what it's like to be cis and the challenges they face as a cis person.

[Brandon]

I think we're getting off topic and into a whole new discussion. It's not about whether you need to tell people, that's a standard no. Stealth is fine. Whatever floats your boat. I'm 50/50 because there's some people I still talk to or work with that knew me by female name, but anyone new just knows me as Jack and that's it. You don't need to advertise that you're trans. But are you going to be cis? No. However, it's a relatively unknown word outside trans circles so why would you need to fixate on that? It's used in the LGBT community to differenciate between being born matching sex and gender and born with a gender differing from sex. I personally feel that it is important to clarify the difference and keep the definition intact.  To strive toward being cis is extremely insulting to me, like being trans is abnormal and you want to be normal. That determination to have a title you can't have is insulting and is exactly why the term cis was identified as being required for better differentiation between us. Becoming cis is an unachievable goal.

But there's nothing wrong with that. Cis is just a definition for us really. It's not like you have guys walking around that have nothing to do with the LGBT community discussing what it's like to be cis and the challenges they face as a cis person.

I thought Cis meant your brain and body match, What's wrong with wanting to be Cis obviously if I could be a bio male I would have been snaped my fingers if I could I do wanna be a normal guy how is that insulting I sure don't want to keep on identifying is Trans for the rest of my life

[Tossu-sama]

There is nothing wrong about wanting to be cis. Heck, I would love to be cis. But the thing is that no amount of HRT or surgeries will change the medical/biological fact of being trans. Identifying as a trans or not is a different thing. I don't identify as trans, I identify as male but I am also trans because... well, that's just one of those things in life I can't change no matter what I do.

[wheat thins are delicious]

I thought Cis meant your brain and body match, What's wrong with wanting to be Cis obviously if I could be a bio male I would have been snaped my fingers if I could I do wanna be a normal guy how is that insulting I sure don't want to keep on identifying is Trans for the rest of my life

The fact of the matter is that the current definition of cis, which is your brain and body are aligned from birth (emphasis on the birth part).  That doesn't mean you have to identify as trans, or even that there is something wrong with wishing you were cis. 

[Jack_M]

The fact of the matter is that the current definition of cis, which is your brain and body are aligned from birth (emphasis on the birth part).  That doesn't mean you have to identify as trans, or even that there is something wrong with wishing you were cis.

^This

Cis does not mean body and brain match, and it's not really up for us to define or interpret it any other way in the same way we wouldn't want someone cis trying to change the definition of trans.  It means you were BORN that way.  You don't have to identify as trans but medically and by definition you cannot be cis.  So a quest to be cis is unattainable as well as insulting as by wanting to be cis, it makes any post transition achievements seem less worthy.  A transman who has fully transitioned to where they're happy, be that medically or socially is the goal.  We can't erase the fact that we're born trans but we don't have to identify as such in the same way people don't have to identify as fat or skinny, diabetic or non diabetic, disabled or non disabled, etc. 

Of course a large majority of us would have far preferred to have been born cis, but that didn't happen.  The definition is in place merely as a way to define between the two.  No one is saying it's man vs transman.  What it is is who is male by birth and who is male by transition be it medical or social.  It exists for comparing only in trans circles or to explain what is and isn't possible with transition, e.g. if I do X will it makes me equivalent to a cis-male? 

My issue is merely with regards to this becoming something where the term loses its point.  It was defined as a way to avoid the insulting "normal" VS trans idea because to us it is obviously not abnormal to be trans.  The word also helps cis individuals find a better word to use when trying to educate themselves as allies.  As soon as an attempt to change the definition begins, the more it goes back to a trans VS normal insult. 

[KabitTarah]

My issue is merely with regards to this becoming something where the term loses its point.  It was defined as a way to avoid the insulting "normal" VS trans idea because to us it is obviously not abnormal to be trans.  The word also helps cis individuals find a better word to use when trying to educate themselves as allies.  As soon as an attempt to change the definition begins, the more it goes back to a trans VS normal insult.

It also has a lot to do with privilege. Cis privilege is real and is something that no trans person can have, whether fully transitioned or not. If (assuming you're not gay) you're dating a member of the opposite sex and don't tell them you're trans and can't have kids, when they find out you lie by omission it's infinitely worse than just telling them up front... but telling up front is something cis people don't have to do... it's their privilege.

There's no way to become cis. You are always transgender and it will always be a part of who you are... and that's a good thing! This is a FTM forum (sorry ~ I found this thread on the "unread posts" page ): how many men out there know about the lack of privilege women have? How many cis men act misogynistically? Probably that's something most of you avoid more easily, because you've been there. There are benefits to being transgender. We know more about gender and gender roles than anyone cis, male or female. We've broken the barrier between genders in society and we can help cis people, none of whom really meet the feminine or masculine ideal, learn to break their own barriers down.

Being stealth has nothing to do with it. You can do all of that without being out to anyone (other than when/if seriously dating).

[Brandon]

^This

Cis does not mean body and brain match, and it's not really up for us to define or interpret it any other way in the same way we wouldn't want someone cis trying to change the definition of trans.  It means you were BORN that way.  You don't have to identify as trans but medically and by definition you cannot be cis.  So a quest to be cis is unattainable as well as insulting as by wanting to be cis, it makes any post transition achievements seem less worthy.  A transman who has fully transitioned to where they're happy, be that medically or socially is the goal.  We can't erase the fact that we're born trans but we don't have to identify as such in the same way people don't have to identify as fat or skinny, diabetic or non diabetic, disabled or non disabled, etc. 

Of course a large majority of us would have far preferred to have been born cis, but that didn't happen.  The definition is in place merely as a way to define between the two.  No one is saying it's man vs transman.  What it is is who is male by birth and who is male by transition be it medical or social.  It exists for comparing only in trans circles or to explain what is and isn't possible with transition, e.g. if I do X will it makes me equivalent to a cis-male? 

My issue is merely with regards to this becoming something where the term loses its point.  It was defined as a way to avoid the insulting "normal" VS trans idea because to us it is obviously not abnormal to be trans.  The word also helps cis individuals find a better word to use when trying to educate themselves as allies.  As soon as an attempt to change the definition begins, the more it goes back to a trans VS normal insult.

That's what I thought it meant uh you can't be a biological male thoes arent the same definitions so in a way you can be cis its just opposite your not gonna be trans for the reat of your life so that makes no since what so ever, Bio and Cis don't mean the same

[Brandon]

It also has a lot to do with privilege. Cis privilege is real and is something that no trans person can have, whether fully transitioned or not. If (assuming you're not gay) you're dating a member of the opposite sex and don't tell them you're trans and can't have kids, when they find out you lie by omission it's infinitely worse than just telling them up front... but telling up front is something cis people don't have to do... it's their privilege.

There's no way to become cis. You are always transgender and it will always be a part of who you are... and that's a good thing! This is a FTM forum (sorry ~ I found this thread on the "unread posts" page ): how many men out there know about the lack of privilege women have? How many cis men act misogynistically? Probably that's something most of you avoid more easily, because you've been there. There are benefits to being transgender. We know more about gender and gender roles than anyone cis, male or female. We've broken the barrier between genders in society and we can help cis people, none of whom really meet the feminine or masculine ideal, learn to break their own barriers down.

Being stealth has nothing to do with it. You can do all of that without being out to anyone (other than when/if seriously dating).

I'm not always gonna be ftm after Ive transitioned that's the end of it sorry I strongly disagree that's implying that my past is still in my future I am a man ftm or not I could care less abut whats below and sorry I don't see being trans as a blessing, I don't even like the word ftm I was never female, My past is my past

[AdamMLP]

I'm not always gonna be ftm after Ive transitioned that's the end of it sorry I strongly disagree that's implying that my past is still in my future I am a man ftm or not I could care less abut whats below and sorry I don't see being trans as a blessing, I don't even like the word ftm I was never female, My past is my past

No one is saying that you always have to identify as trans or ftm. Not now, not once you've transitioned. Some people do, and that's fine for them, but you don't have to, and nor do I. I am trans by definition, and for the sake of medical purposes and so I can find places like this with others going through similar stuff, not because I choose to identify that way. As far as I'm concerned I'm just male, unless there's call for me to specify further, just like as far as I'm concerned I have 10 fully functioning digits, but doctors might be interested to know that I had surgery to cut open the sheath my tendon runs through on the little finger of my left hand, which I've also broken the metacarpal of.

Some people are fortunate enough to see that being trans has blessed them with different experiences which has enhanced their outlook or approach to life. Other people don't. It's a tiny sliver of a silver lining, but it is there. There's no rule saying you have to agree. Let people be happy finding the good in things where they can, positivity is good. Try it.

That's what I thought it meant uh you can't be a biological male thoes arent the same definitions so in a way you can be cis its just opposite your not gonna be trans for the reat of your life so that makes no since what so ever, Bio and Cis don't mean the same

In this sense, bio and cis do mean the same. Cis means that you were born into the body of the same gender as your brain, and, as far as I can work out, you use bio to refer to someone who is biologically a certain gender and has remained and is happy with that gender. There's a reason not many other people use the term bio, and that's because we've already got more suitable words for it, cis, or assigned male/female at birth. Like it or not, as you said, we won't become "biological males", which means that we're something other than cis men, which is trans men, so yes, in a technical and medical sense we will be trans forever, but no one is making you identify as anything you don't want to be. Identify as just a man.

[Brandon]

No one is saying that you always have to identify as trans or ftm. Not now, not once you've transitioned. Some people do, and that's fine for them, but you don't have to, and nor do I. I am trans by definition, and for the sake of medical purposes and so I can find places like this with others going through similar stuff, not because I choose to identify that way. As far as I'm concerned I'm just male, unless there's call for me to specify further, just like as far as I'm concerned I have 10 fully functioning digits, but doctors might be interested to know that I had surgery to cut open the sheath my tendon runs through on the little finger of my left hand, which I've also broken the metacarpal of.

Some people are fortunate enough to see that being trans has blessed them with different experiences which has enhanced their outlook or approach to life. Other people don't. It's a tiny sliver of a silver lining, but it is there. There's no rule saying you have to agree. Let people be happy finding the good in things where they can, positivity is good. Try it.

In this sense, bio and cis do mean the same. Cis means that you were born into the body of the same gender as your brain, and, as far as I can work out, you use bio to refer to someone who is biologically a certain gender and has remained and is happy with that gender. There's a reason not many other people use the term bio, and that's because we've already got more suitable words for it, cis, or assigned male/female at birth. Like it or not, as you said, we won't become "biological males", which means that we're something other than cis men, which is trans men, so yes, in a technical and medical sense we will be trans forever, but no one is making you identify as anything you don't want to be. Identify as just a man.

Ok the definition of being transsexual is being uncomfortable in your assiigned sex so you transition after awhile everything is gonna be on one accord, so you would no longer be trans because as I just said everything matches and your comfortable I'm sorry I'm not understanding I just don't agree but its fine

[geek]

stop nit picking for the sake of it, youre never EVER going to be biologically male, in 1000 years when they dig up your body, guess what theyre gonna see? tip: its not going to be the testosterone, or the facial hair, or anything but your skeleton, and guess what that says? yeah. it doesnt matter how you identify, its all just words, at the end of the day you still changed your gender, regardless of what you call it

Edited for spelling

[Jack_M]

Ok the definition of being transsexual is being uncomfortable in your assiigned sex so you transition after awhile everything is gonna be on one accord, so you would no longer be trans because as I just said everything matches and your comfortable I'm sorry I'm not understanding I just don't agree but its fine

Then by your definition alone, you can't actually ever be not trans because you never match without on going treatment.  It's a life long process!  So at what point can you not be trans if you forever have to take treatment (HRT) to manage the fact that you were born the wrong sex?  And if you choose not to treat it medically or stop hormone treatments, your body is not, or no longer chemically male.

Honestly, it's like a diabetic saying they don't have diabetes anymore because they take insulin injections.  It just doesn't add up. 

There's only 2 terms.  Cis and trans.  We can't be cis, and there should never be a word developed for non trans because it's both incorrect, insulting and adds to segregation within the trans community that now people have a term for when they're supposidly post transition but then what is post transition?  Is it all about the surgeries?  Is it length of time on hormones?  How would we define that?  Trans is an umbrella term.  It accounts for everyone that has any variation on the gender spectrum at whatever stage they happen to be at striving towards whatever goals they personally have.  It's as inclusive and inviting as it gets.  It's not something that can ever be fully "cured" so to speak.  Ask someone who's been on hormones for decades and living stealth if they are never affected by trans issues and it's highly doubtful it doesn't come up ever for them.  I've been living 50/50 stealth for a while now (mostly the only people that know are through work) and I've made some fantastic new mates.  It's been a whole new world for me being a legit one of the guys and not 'one of the guys' as a perceived female, and I'm loving it.  But I can tell they have no clue I'm trans because they'll make stereotypical sexist jokes (nothing crazier than the stereotype stuff girls say before anyone pounces on sexist jokes) and while it's great and awesome, there's that little voice in my head that says, "I wonder if these guys would change if they every found out."  I only associate myself with open minded individuals so if they found out, I'd highly doubt they'd be douchebags and refuse to be friends, but I can't help but wonder if they would change.  And I sincerely doubt that niggling feeling will ever go away.  It may not be as common and sometimes it won't even cross my mind.  But then something will happen, some comment will bring it all into focus be it a sexist joke or talking about their childhood and it'll come back.

[Cindy]

I'm not against this thread or anything in it but it is becoming increasingly circular and diminishing to a dot.

I'm locking it for the sake of saving breath.

If anyone has an issue about that let me know and I'll consider unlocking it;  if it will go somewhere.

Cindy