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is it important to tell a person youbeen dating awhile your birth gender

Started by evecrook, December 07, 2013, 08:25:01 AM

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Joanna Dark

Quote from: Heather on December 08, 2013, 08:53:26 PM
I thought I would just add one more point, I've heard far too many straight guys in my life say if they were ever tricked by a trans woman they would kill them that I know better than to push my luck with a man. Trying to be totally stealth is not worth losing my life over, I have no attention of having my name added to a list of trans women who have been murdered because some man found out about their birth status.
Btw I'm not advocating whether someone should be obligated to tell or not, I'm just saying for me I'm not willing to take that big of a gamble with my life and would rather spend the rest of my life alone than worrying whether or not my husband going to find out and divorce me or do something worse to me.  ;)

What happens if your at the bar or something and something "just happens"? That is a thing. But I guess for me I am an okay judge of character and wouldn't make out with a guy who would do that. (not saying you aren't an okay judge, just more careful then me lol) Also, a lot of these murders tend to be trans girls who are prostituting themselves. Not saying that excuses it at all but the type of guy that would go that route, yeah, usually not the most moral of men.
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Heather

Quote from: Joanna Dark on December 08, 2013, 09:02:52 PM
What happens if your at the bar or something and something "just happens"? That is a thing. But I guess for me I am an okay judge of character and wouldn't make out with a guy who would do that. (not saying you aren't an okay judge, just more careful then me lol) Also, a lot of these murders tend to be trans girls who are prostituting themselves. Not saying that excuses it at all but the type of guy that would go that route, yeah, usually not the most moral of men.
I've dealt with enough of a certain type of man that likes to go after the type of woman I am that it has made me mistrustful of all men now so I'm always careful. ;)
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Tristan

as one of the fast girls of Susans i must say i agree with heather. guys dont like being what they feel is tricked/ lied too. as they said in malibus most wanted.  the girl ,"baby its not what it looks like!"
the guy ," dont you use that line. thats my line and it always was what it looked like!"
at some point before marriage it just might be a good idea to tell them. or not. your life your relationship.  >:-)
im just sayin.....
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Xhianil

I say yes, a big yes, because while you may hate your birth gender, it's still a part of you, you carry each and every experence from it within you and they make you who you are, if you didn't would you have been as strong as you are?
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Jean24

Quote from: jussmoi4nao on December 08, 2013, 01:46:11 PM
I agree about dudebro culture, though, but the first step toward changing this is not to tell WOMEN to act differently, it's to tell men to change this primitive behaviour.

I agree with that to a point but there's a difference between having a right to be beautiful with a right to safety vs showing a bunch of skin in front of some men with nothing to lose by violating a woman.
Trying to take it one day at a time :)
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kinz

Quote from: Xhianil on December 08, 2013, 10:31:19 PM
I say yes, a big yes, because while you may hate your birth gender, it's still a part of you, you carry each and every experence from it within you and they make you who you are, if you didn't would you have been as strong as you are?

it is not still a part of me. i don't "hate my birth gender" (it is also not "my birth gender" because i was not born a dude, i was born a baby, do babies even HAVE a gender? the world may never know), but to make that kind of blanket statement about other people doesn't really strike me as right, especially if you're using that as a rhetorical argument in favour of compelling trans people to disclose the fact they're trans to other partners.

Quote from: Gene24 on December 08, 2013, 11:19:04 PM
I agree with that to a point but there's a difference between having a right to be beautiful with a right to safety vs showing a bunch of skin in front of some men with nothing to lose by violating a woman.

no. no no no nON NON NO. stop. please stop. it is not a woman's fault, no matter what she is wearing, no matter what she is doing, if a dude decides to violate her boundaries and her consent and there is no grey area or wiggle room about this. holding the survivor of a sexual assault accountable for what happened to them is really inappropriate and wrong and it's awful.
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Ashey

I would disclose right away. If they want to do anything with me they're going to have to be okay we me being trans. Especially because I'm pre-op and possibly non-op. As a unicorn they will notice my horn! But I'm not into going stealth anyway. Before coming out, I hated having to pretend to act like a guy. And I guess I wouldn't want to flip it around and pretend like I'm a cis-woman either. I don't want to be afraid to hide my past and feel I have to lie to people about certain things. Then there is the issue of safety. If I were post-op, looking for a one night stand, and I felt the risk wasn't great, I might not say anything. But in any other situation, if sex or intimacy of any sort was on the table, I would disclose. I don't really have any qualms with embracing being a transsexual anymore, and neither should my partner. It's a big part of my life.
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suzifrommd

Quote from: transtrender on December 09, 2013, 12:56:13 AM
it is not a woman's fault, no matter what she is wearing, no matter what she is doing, if a dude decides to violate her boundaries and her consent and there is no grey area or wiggle room about this. holding the survivor of a sexual assault accountable for what happened to them is really inappropriate and wrong and it's awful.

Yes, of course.

But it there is a difference between saying "it's her fault" and "here are some sensible precautions to take to avoid becoming a statistic."
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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Jean24

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 08, 2013, 05:20:10 PM
OK, I'm going to get myself into trouble and join the conversation.
I'm putting myself on the other side.
I imagine I'm a guy. I'm dating my precious girlfriend for a few months. I go to meet her parents (or kids. Or cousins. Or some family or old friends that means something to her.)
We have a lovely time, but there are some peculiar things I don't understand. They seem reluctant to talk about her past. Occasionally I see her shoot them a look that says "don't talk about that." I'm wondering why the subject of what my girlfriend was like as a kid is avoided.
Then one of them slips up. Uses the wrong pronoun or talks about what a cute boy she was when she was young. I put two and two together.
And I wonder how many other people know, and why she didn't trust me enough to tell me. How do you imagine I'd feel about all that?

I'd probably feel like saying "Poor cisgendered you, you conveniently get to live a relatively normal life and your biggest secret is that you volunteer for block watch." At any rate, I put emphasis on the lover can never know. I would break it off soon after if that happened to me. Whether they know in advance or find out in 20 years, they will view you differently from that point on. Small family + we don't see each other much because we don't get along is an all too common story these days that closes that loophole.
Trying to take it one day at a time :)
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Jean24

Quote from: transtrender on December 09, 2013, 12:56:13 AM
no. no no no nON NON NO. stop. please stop. it is not a woman's fault, no matter what she is wearing, no matter what she is doing, if a dude decides to violate her boundaries and her consent and there is no grey area or wiggle room about this. holding the survivor of a sexual assault accountable for what happened to them is really inappropriate and wrong and it's awful.

Yeah, that's what everybody wants everybody else to think right now, but nobody is lining up to be a rape martyr so every woman has the right to walk half naked through East Saint Louis in the name of being beautiful. I know I wouldn't. And the point is that you are free to do it if you choose, but women choose to play it safe for a reason. And there is no grey area or wiggle room once rape happens, the rapist goes away as they should and the victim stays a rape victim forever. There are no winners.
Trying to take it one day at a time :)
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Ltl89

Quote from: Gene24 on December 09, 2013, 02:05:02 PM
Yeah, that's what everybody wants everybody else to think right now, but nobody is lining up to be a rape martyr so every woman has the right to walk half naked through East Saint Louis in the name of being beautiful. I know I wouldn't. And the point is that you are free to do it if you choose, but women choose to play it safe for a reason. And there is no grey area or wiggle room once rape happens, the rapist goes away as they should and the victim stays a rape victim forever. There are no winners.

Rapists will attack a woman wearing conservative clothing too.  The idea that covering yourself will save you from being attacked is really flawed.  If someone will attack a women wearing a skirt, you can guarantee that wearing jeans won't stop him either.  Clothing isn't the problem.  There are ways to protect yourself and prevention tips that people should practice, but mentioning proper attire just seems to place the blame on the victim to justify why the rapist happened to rape.  While I understand your point is to mention safe practices, I really don't think clothing makes much difference. 
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BunnyBee

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 09, 2013, 01:19:16 PM
Yes, of course.

But it there is a difference between saying "it's her fault" and "here are some sensible precautions to take to avoid becoming a statistic."

I can see that you are trying to be reasonable, but that is what is so insidious about this mindset.  In a very subtle way it is saying that if a woman publicly puts her sexuality on display she is just asking to be raped, which softly implies that she shares some (even if a small amount) of the responsibility if something happens to her.

Somebody above said that if a woman is raped, the man goes to prison as a rapist and the woman has to live the rest of her life being a rape victim and nobody wins, but that is not exactly true is it?  Most of the time the woman feels such shame and deep down thinks that maybe she does share some of the blame that she doesn't even report being assaulted.  So yes the woman lives her life as a victim, but the man faces no consequence for causing life-long harm to another human being.

This mindset contributes in whatever small or large way to victims not seeking or getting justice imo, and we should stop it.
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Devlyn

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Devlyn

You're going to cause this thread to need a trigger warning as well.
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BunnyBee

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 09, 2013, 02:37:07 PM
Everyone is getting way way off topic. Hugs, Devlyn

This topic always goes in this direction because there is just an implication held by the word "obligation."  I'm def not saying it's a good thing (cuz it isn't) just that it is to be expected.
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Devlyn

Hon, if the topic is going to be about rape, it needs to say so or have a warning. That's why you can't just hijack a thread to a triggering subject. Anyone can start an appropriately titled topic to discuss just about anything here, but we shouldn't be waylaying people. It's common courtesy. Hugs, Devlyn
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kinz

it's the exact same train of thought, and they both come from the same place. the idea that trans women are obligated to tell their partners of their status (implication being that if they do not, they open themselves up for violence, and that they will have brought about that violence due to a lack of being "honest") is very similar to the idea that women are responsible for protecting themselves against sexual violence (with the unspoken suggestion that "irresponsibly" failing to follow these "rules" is a way of "asking for it"). they're both symptoms of the same mindset and if they're repeatedly coming up in these discussions, i don't think it's fair to say that survivors and allies of survivors can't defend themselves against the implicit accusations that come tied into those statements.

i am sensitive to the idea that this thread now doesn't have a cw for extended discussion about sexual violence, but i don't feel right or safe about the idea of dropping the conversation because, like sarah said, i think there's a need to contradict victim-blaming. if it would help, i think it wouldn't be a bad idea to split off the topic into one that does carry the proper warnings.
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Jean24

Quote from: jussmoi4nao on December 09, 2013, 02:40:24 PM
@Gene,
I think you're missing the fundamental problem here: ANY time you blame a woman even slightly for what others do to her, you are taking the responsibility OUT of the perpetrators hands and putting it into the victims and saying for rape and violence to stop women need to change. Just...NOO. That's wrongg. Nothing a woman does makes her responsible for that kind of treatment, regardless.
How can you expect men to change when you make excuses for them or say that they don't need to or it's the victims fault instead of their own?? Men are NOT animals, they have self control and the only way to teach them self control is to change rape culture and the only way to change rape culture is to hold men WHOLLY and completely responsible for their actiond.
End of stoory.

Well that's kinda the trade off for beauty and attraction. The point is that SOME men do act like animals, they are out there, it IS their fault when they rape someone, and women tend to be keen on not giving any potential rapists an opportunity. The actions of the masses are saying that it's better to exercise good judgement and to play it safe than to be a rape victim and I happen to agree with them.
Trying to take it one day at a time :)
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Jean24

Quote from: learningtolive on December 09, 2013, 02:33:35 PM
Rapists will attack a woman wearing conservative clothing too. The idea that covering yourself will save you from being attacked is really flawed.  If someone will attack a women wearing a skirt, you can guarantee that wearing jeans won't stop him either. Clothing isn't the problem. There are ways to protect yourself and prevention tips that people should practice, but mentioning proper attire just seems to place the blame on the victim to justify why the rapist happened to rape.  While I understand your point is to mention safe practices, I really don't think clothing makes much difference.

So are those the politics of it all? It seems like when I say that "Women can and frequently DO play it safe" has many people hearing "She has SOME degree of control, which means getting raped was her own fault to some degree."  I don't see why people feel that saying a woman is able to exercise caution makes a rapist less than 100% at fault for their crime. It definitely IS NOT victim blaming. I just cannot understand why it has to be an absolute...
Trying to take it one day at a time :)
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Ms. OBrien CVT

A subject such as this is a personal one.  Disavowing another view is not only bad form, but not very understanding.

Closing thread for now.

  
It does not take courage or bravery to change your gender.  It takes fear of living one more day in the wrong one.~me
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