is it important to tell a person youbeen dating awhile your birth gender

[Devlyn]

But, Sarah, isn't this what someone does to someone else if they don't tell them?

"To decide for me what I should be doing in my life"

Hugs, Devlyn

[Devlyn]

Your rancor sucks. Defend who you want.  I asked a simple question.  No need to get lit. Hugs, Devlyn

[Jamie D]

We each possess the right to make our own decisions.  We are free people, free agents.  No one owns us.  No one has the right to make decisions for us.

This subject is highly personal.  I will not make judgements about some one, or some group of people within our community, whose experiences are different from mine.  I have to trust they know their personal situation better than I ever could, and not get into arguments over hypotheticals.

It is called respect.

This topic should have been locked the moment it was posted.

[Katie]

I have to say this. The words I have written before have never been intended to be hurtful. They never were intended to create groups. They were not judgmental. They were simply sharring wisdom that came to me from working with countless trans people and my own transition. I actually lived what so few live. That does not make me better than anyone but I do know what I am talking about and if you don't agree that is totally ok with me. I really don't care. Lord knows I see a ton of posts in this section of the forum that I feel belong in a different section, I don't get upset I just ignore them.

Now I realize that a lot of trans people hear what they want to hear and when they see something they don't like they lash out. My only response to that is hey this is the internet....... If you have to last out at someone on the internet how can you be ready for the real world?

Finally my words are targeting transsexual women. A transsexual is a woman yes indeed. They yearn to do whatever is possible to be a woman. That often includes such things as FFS, BA, tons of work and finally SRS because SRS is part of the process. They may not have had SRS but they sure as heck want and yearn for it because it completes the process and gives them what current technology can offer to be as real a woman as they can.

I was not talking to the people that don't want SRS. Hey there is nothing wrong with that its your call.............I just was not talking to you.

[Ltl89]

That is simply inaccurate if you look at the breakdown of posts. The thing all of the stealth post-ops who are in favour of disclosing have in common? A lack of desire to judge those who don't. They all start with "no, you don't have an obligation to tell," and then go on to say but this is why it can be a good idea or this is why I do it. Because we get it, we understand why you would make that choice.

The post-ops I've seen make judgmental comments regarding disclosure weren't stealth and certainly hadn't transitioned young.

And ya, it does make sense to divide into silly groups. Because the people who are stealth and post-op have experience, and the rest of you have hypotheticals.

My own partner knows about my history. My choice. Not my obligation.

I'm going to bow out of this conversation because it's causing drama.  Like I said from the beginning it's everyone's choice to decide for themselves.  And while I have my reservations about how a healthy relationship being forged without disclosure, I did ask for people to enlighten me and provide another perspective (something which I thank Calico for).  On my part, I never intended to judge because I can understand why people choose it.  If it did come across that way, I do apologize.

But I won't join the notion that we should divide into groups.  I value the experience of people that have lived through it.  Post ops have direct knowledge on what pre-ops don't.  Still,  I really don't like the seperation tactics I've seen some transwomen do (not including you) and don't want part in it.  All post ops were pre ops one day.  Let's not forget that.

On the direct knowledge front, there is an interesting thing I never thought about.  Earlier in my life I had corrective surgery to "fix" a genital defect I had.  Much of that was a long time ago and I see know reason to bring that up to a partner.  Should I bring that up?  Honestly, I don't feel like I should, though, I probably will have to if it comes up.  Still, it's something long past and irrelevant at this time.  It doesn't change who I am and isn't being decietful.  I suppose SRS feels like that for a lot of post-ops.  And I don't blame you for that.  Still, I don't know if I can choose the non-disclosure path myself.   Nontheless, I respect anyone who does choose it.

[BunnyBee]

First of all, Sarah, I just want to tell you that you are one of the people here that I absolutely respect without equivocation, and I appreciate so much the thoughtful, often brilliant, things you say here.  You are a gift.

Now, I have thought about this for a bit and I am going to give you all my actual thoughts on this business of obligations.  I know it will be too much of a soapbox for some, and I am sorry (kind of,) but I have to say this.

Saying it is morally wrong to not disclose is loaded with some pretty terrible subtext. Implicity it says that trans people are gross, that the feelings of transphobes and homophobes (these are the people that would be disgusted by the idea of "being tricked" by a trans person, right?) are more important to protect than our own feelings.  I guess because we agree that we are disgusting?  I would never disclose to a potential partner out of concern or in consideration of the terrible people out there who hold horrible, destructive worldviews.  Never.  I would do so only for my own internal reasons, or in consideration of the bond being created with somebody I like a lot.

I will freely admit that the social contract (which is written by the heteronormative majority btw) probably does currently state that trans people should always disclose their status no matter what.  However, when the social contract is unjust, the persecuted and their allies have an obligation to stand against it, in my opinion.  I hate to take an argument in this direction, but I'm gonna...  50 years ago there were people that were disturbed by the idea of using a toilet after a person of color, among other horrible things.  The social contract of that time basically agreed with them, even enacted laws that supported that way of thinking. The people being told they were worthless and lesser at that time created a whole movement against it and things changed.

Maybe we need to stand up against what society tells us, especially when it is so demeaning.  We probably never will tho, because we can't agree on much of anything and can't even get along with each other half the time.  We take all these distict groups and we try to put them under an umbrella and pretend we are all the same in the name of solidarity and for the power in numbers (even though consolidated we are still a super minority.)  It is a great and noble idea.  However, we want to pretend there aren't lines drawn between us underneath the umbrella, but the reality is we are disparate and have often competing agendas.  With the dynamics that actaully exist, any hope of all of us presenting a united front almost seems naive, especially to people that have been watching this for a while.

I personally do like the idea of coming together, and even totally support coalescing with the power held by the LGB community in hopes that maybe we can get some rights so that maybe one day we won't be so marginalized.  But then I see people within this community turn on each other, time and time again, and I wonder how can we even believe in it anymore honestly?

[Tori]

Sarah, I respect where you are coming from.

I only found fault when you failed to respect a cis opinion, even though she had not read the entire thread. If she had not been honest, and instead, kept that information (she hadn't read the whole thing) to herself, it seems you would not have taken issue with her post.

Ironic, since this is a thread about MTF's disclosing their past as men, and that information may cause others to take issue with us.

Really though, Sarah. You have made great points and I have learned from them. I only took exception when you ignored a cis opinion because she admitted to not reading the entire thread.

Your points though, are valid, smart and quite inspirational.

Peace,
Tori

[Joanna Dark]

Well, I don't know if it is always pre-op/post-op on the question of disclosure. I've had oral sex with someone in the last week and I didn't disclose. It was just something I did (that I shouldn't have done). But I shouldn't have done it because I have a BF not because of I should disclose because I might get hurt. I don't hook up (or even talk to) people who are potentially violent. And yeah you can tell if a guy is capable of murder. The guy wanted to have vaginal sex too and tried until I slapped his hand away and told him I was having my period. So, he didn't know that much I know.

Am I morally abhorrent for not disclosing? I don't think so. Was it smart? I don't know. I like to live life and make the best choices I can given my circumstances. Plus far too many trans girls are way, way too cautious and barely leave the house. I didn't do this to stay in. So people need to make their own decisions. But what I hope for each and every person here is to try what I try to do: LIVE. And often times, that requires not disclosing, especially up front. Now, I might not have the most experience but I am dating and have had sex and prolly coulda had a lot more. So, I think I know a lil something. Not much. But a lil. 

[Northern Jane]

Everyone has to live by their own standards of ethics and it is a balance between what YOU need and what you feel is right.

After SRS in 1974, I did not disclose anything to anyone. I was thankful that horrid business was behind me and I just wanted to forget about it. I did not even disclose to my first husband and nobody around me knew. I didn't feel bad about it - I felt I was entitled to my privacy.

When I remarried in 1980 I made the decision to disclose to my second husband because I realized that stealth is fragile and can be shattered at any time quite unexpectedly and if my stealth was broken, I wanted him to be prepared. He took it remarkably well and we were even closer for my honesty. As it turned out, my background leaked out a few years later but I didn't even know it until much later. My  husband was my greatest defender and kept the crap away from me.

Now, so many years down the road, I prefer to be upfront. If someone can't handle my ancient medical history, I will not waste my time with them. On the other hand, I do miss being "a woman without an asterisk".

It is a tough choice and I respect every woman (and man's) right to make it for themselves.

[Tristan]

Well, I don't know if it is always pre-op/post-op on the question of disclosure. I've had oral sex with someone in the last week and I didn't disclose. It was just something I did (that I shouldn't have done). But I shouldn't have done it because I have a BF not because of I should disclose because I might get hurt. I don't hook up (or even talk to) people who are potentially violent. And yeah you can tell if a guy is capable of murder. The guy wanted to have vaginal sex too and tried until I slapped his hand away and told him I was having my period. So, he didn't know that much I know.

Am I morally abhorrent for not disclosing? I don't think so. Was it smart? I don't know. I like to live life and make the best choices I can given my circumstances. Plus far too many trans girls are way, way too cautious and barely leave the house. I didn't do this to stay in. So people need to make their own decisions. But what I hope for each and every person here is to try what I try to do: LIVE. And often times, that requires not disclosing, especially up front. Now, I might not have the most experience but I am dating and have had sex and prolly coulda had a lot more. So, I think I know a lil something. Not much. But a lil.

first and formost...giggdy giggdy.
its all about having fun and enjoying life which your doing right on

[michelle]

Life is full of land mines.    I don't think that we are obligated to tell those we become involved with every little detail about our past lives, nor do they need to tell us absolutely everything about theirs.  However as transgender men and women, I do think that we need to consider how the people we become involved with feel about the GLBTQ community.   If we become involved romantically with individuals and their families that strongly disapprove of  anything but heterosexual romantic relationships we are sitting on an emotional time bomb and we will always live in fear of being found out.   We will again feel trapped like we felt before we transitioned to our true selves.    And if we have not had surgery then there are things that we just can't hide and we will be found out.

If the people we become romantically involved with love us for whom we are and don't care if they become involved with a trans person and their families feel the same way, then it's just a matter of a personal inner decision as to wether we tell our partner or not.   Also if our partner expects a family and children, then we will need to give some reason as to why we can't procreate.   Also there is the matter of how we communicate our health issues to our romantic partner.   If we are young transgender women, our partner will in time notice that we never have our period or we have to fake one the rest of our lives until we reach menopause.

I don't feel that we have an obligation to tell our partner everything about our pasts,  but in close personal relationships there are some things we can't hide or fake over an expended relationship of years.    Also living with a spouse that hates transgendered people would be the same life of fear we faced before we transitioned and we would be back in our closet again dreading that at any moment our past would catch up with us and unable to share personal health issues that many couples share inorder to cope with every day life.

This is just how I feel, and what I think as a 67 year old transgender who only came out of the closet late in life,  and doesn't try and mess with people's perceptions of herself.   Some people see me as a woman, some as a cross dresser, some as an eccentric and as a senior citizen some people who just don't see me at all.

[calico]

It's a simple question that everyone is making hard. If you're pre-op you must disclose at some point. If not, it's up to you. It's no one else's business to say anything otherwise or to poke and prod people. No offense but most of the moralizing on this thread is from pre-op women telling post-op women if they don't disclose they can't have a healthy relationship. That ain't true.

I didn't directly want to say this but now that is has been mentions I will have to agree.
during the pre-srs period if you intend to take things to the sexual level you just can not, not disclose the situation..

Now I will admit that I had a relationship pre-srs and it did end due to issues on both side of the relationship, but when it ended I decided to wait, this was due to personal issues mainly with big-time body dysphoria.

That is simply inaccurate if you look at the breakdown of posts. The thing all of the stealth post-ops who are in favour of disclosing have in common? A lack of desire to judge those who don't. They all start with "no, you don't have an obligation to tell," and then go on to say but this is why it can be a good idea or this is why I do it. Because we get it, we understand why you would make that choice.

The post-ops I've seen make judgmental comments regarding disclosure weren't stealth and certainly hadn't transitioned young.

And ya, it does make sense to divide into silly groups. Because the people who are stealth and post-op have experience, and the rest of you have hypotheticals.

My own partner knows about my history. My choice. Not my obligation.

Sarah7 - I have nothing for respect of you for your posts, and that you defend those who have made choice's from those who are unknowing, unwilling, and or just well like you put it  "hypotheticals".

LearningtoLive - I love you doll just as many others here, you ask questions and genuinely want to gain more knowledge and don't seem to judge anyone even if their opining or feelings differ from yours.

But, Sarah, isn't this what someone does to someone else if they don't tell them?

"To decide for me what I should be doing in my life"

Hugs, Devlyn

Dev - I love you as well, you have posted in several of my topics and have even gave me good advice from time to time. While I understand your comment here- sometimes it isn't so much as being a parent but doing what may be best for themselves or in my case "myself" also a note as an opinion sometimes healthy relations can became established even with secrets or off limit areas are on both sides of the fence. as I stated earlier he knows there are some things I don't wish to talk about and he respects that and as I with him and a couple of his areas, doesn't change to fact we love and care for each other or even damage our trust of one another.

on an ending note I feel that this topic has gotten a lil hot, and does need to cool down a bit, its a very personal topic for me as well but I am trying to take the 3rd person view and learn new things as well.
Cant we all just get along?

[noeleena]

Hi,

For my self it would have saved a lot of heart ache and anger, having said that you have to go back to 1947 when i was born  no one would have known   i was different , i was fortunate in i accepted what i was, just had no words to explain that, or could i, at age 10, i knew .

So even in the 50's you keep your mouth shut unless you wonted a quick trip to the nut house, and have your life taken from you. i was very aware of that even at a young age.

had my birth cert's been what we can now have in Germany and open document Birth cert, till i was old enough to say in words what i was, not be told by some Dr. then things would have been very different .

Personaly yes i would have been open  it was not the time or place to do so plus there were  other details that may have and i know would have come to light that would have put my life in danger so my Mom shielded me ,

If you are looking at life or death in the face at a  very young age and you cant talk about things , what would you do. my answer is at an age that you are old enough then yes open up.

At the time when  i  was married age 24 my past was closed down and a mind blank for close on 10 years, from birth till age 10.and by that time i thought every thing was okay , was it , no  till 20 years ago then it came out by then we had our family ,

I can look at my background and past and say what if , theres just no point it wont change who i am now or then

Every thing is out in the open and is part of my life history and past. we must not so much for get our past just live our life be who we are , and work through  what went on then,

I wont say  whats happened to myself will be the same for others point is we can not live our life through another we are all different and have our own life to live and how we see things that will be best for our selfs and others around us,

...noeleena...

[Jamie D]

This topic wasn't worth the casualties.

[Ltl89]

LearningtoLive - I love you doll just as many others here, you ask questions and genuinely want to gain more knowledge and don't seem to judge anyone even if their opining or feelings differ from yours.

Thank you Calico.  I genuinely appreciate it.  I didn't want anyone to walk away feeling judged or ostracised and it saddens me that it became a post-op vs pre-op thing.  And it's so silly in my view because one day many pre-ops will become post-ops themselves (myself included) and all post-ops were pre-ops. 

This topic wasn't worth the casualties.

I don't know who left, but I hope they consider coming back.  There is no reason for anyone to feel unwelcome.  At the end of the day, the whole point of transitioning is to do what's right for you.  And what's right for you, might not be right for someone else.   That applies to this situation as well. 

Let's all get along and respect one another. 

[Joanna Dark]

This topic wasn't worth the casualties.

No it certainly was not.

first and formost...giggdy giggdy.
its all about having fun and enjoying life which your doing right on

Uh, I don't if I meant it that way. Hmm, my BF is really hurt and I didn't expect that. I'm really ashamed and I'd give anything to take it back. Though, ironically, he is being so incredibly nice now.

[Jean24]

This topic wasn't worth the casualties.

Just finished reading up on everything since the topic was reopened and I liked all of it. There were a bunch of good topics discussed since the beginning and nobody seemed bitter despite the touchy nature.

[evecrook]

I'm sorry, I had no intention of alienating any one by posting the question. I got it from the ftm site and thought it interesting. I'm pre-opt hopefully to become post opt. at my age it might be hard for some to not know with out telling them  my birth gender. also at my age the question could be totally  irrelevant  because both parties could care less. Although I'm hoping to turn out to be gorgeous

[Jean24]

I'm sorry, I had no intention of alienating any one by posting the question. I got it from the ftm site and thought it interesting. I'm pre-opt hopefully to become post opt. at my age it might be hard for some to not know with out telling them  my birth gender. also at my age the question could be totally  irrelevant  because both parties could care less. Although I'm hoping to turn out to be gorgeous

I'm sure you will be. I understand your concerns though because I have them myself lol. I'm worried about my feet looking too big, especially for my height and for a woman's feet. I might not be able to be as stealthy as I'd like to

[Tristan]

It happens. We all give into some form of temptation at some point. Your boyfriend is still there so he obviously loves you and will forgive you with time. That's what life is all about. We make mistakes and learn from them. And yeah hurting someone does suck cuz then you feel bad. But at least you were honest with him about it so their is room to grow