not trans but new coworker is, is this normal?..

[Contravene]

Sounds like he has no problem, and you and your coworkers are performing microaggressions by not using his preferred pronoun. He is male, and if he says to call him by male pronouns and if he wants to use the male restroom, why are you stopping him? I don't think there is any problem with him, it's his coworkers who are being rather unprofessional and bigoted.

Why the hostility? Jesus, no wonder so many people are afraid to approach the trans community. He's not purposely misgendering anyone, he's just confused. I'm a trans guy and seeing someone who claims to be FTM yet doesn't even try to pass (as seems to be the case here) would be confusing for me at first too. It's good that the OP came here to learn and try to understand his coworker's situation, a lot of people wouldn't even bother.

Anyway, I wasn't going to comment here because I'm the exact opposite of the coworker. I'm not able to transition yet due to family problems and while I could ask to be referred to as male at work, I don't because I can't even try to pass except around my close friends. I know it would just be confusing if I were to go around demanding to be called male pronouns while looking at least somewhat like a woman (I dress androgynously). Yes, it's great to be yourself and want to be called the correct pronouns but there comes a point where you do have to be mindful of how others are going to view and treat you. But I guess that advice is more for his coworker so I digress.

[Rina]

Even someone who was pretty masculine as a girl, probably still has some mannerisms and socialization from a female upbringing. Trans men who were seen as too masculine for women often come off kind of feminine after transitioning to male. Like I said, this is mostly due to a life of socialization in the other gender and not so much to do with the person's inherent personality and preferences (though it could be). They may not act exactly like the typical guy because they have not been able to live as a typical guy. And finally, some people are just more masculine or feminine than others regardless of gender.

This is right on the spot. Even though I tried my best to fit in as a guy, I never really passed as one - be it my body posture (always had slip ups where my mannerisms became more female), interests and tastes (did my best trying to become masculine, didn't work), way of speaking (ended with my voice becoming completely monotone after bullying in primary school, so ehm... now I just pass as an aspie in that regard), choice of friends and activities (mostly girls, and I preferred their girl nights, to which I was welcome, instead of guy things, unless I was forced or in one of my femininity-phobic periods), or most of all, emotional reactions (I'm a crybaby). Most people have always suspected me of being gay or at the very last bi, and while the latter is correct, the truth is I was never a man.

But when I finally get around to transitioning (sadly there are insane waiting times in my country just to get HRT, not to speak of SRS), I'll have the problem of my male upbringing and socialization, as unsuccessful as it was - be it my body posture (15 years of trying to purge every female mannerism aren't easily reversed), interests and tastes (I still love computers and gaming, though I am going to build that pink gaming rig I've always wanted :p ), way of speaking (reversing that monotony will not be easy), choice of friends and activities (okay, not friends, since I never really connected with men... but I do love LAN parties), but least of all, emotional reactions (those are too hardwired). People will at best see me as a bit tomboyish, at worst they'll suspect I'm trans. So I guess the truth is I'll be stuck in some middle place. If I hadn't listened to the bigots during puberty, and followed my instincts instead, the situation would be different. I really wish I could rewind.

(To the OP, mostly:)

I guess what I'm trying to say is something like this: If he doesn't pass, that doesn't mean he's not genuinely trans or that he shouldn't be called by his male name and pronouns. On the other hand, trans people who don't even attempt to pass (as in, trans men who wear female clothes or the other way around), while still insisting on their identified pronouns, always puzzled me. I'm currently in guy mode when I'm not at home, since I'm only out to my closest family and friends. For that reason, I've told the people I came out to that I still want to be called by my male name, and still want male pronouns, firstly because they'll feel weird calling me by female terms when I'm presenting as a guy (no matter how much I hate it), secondly because if they get used to saying "she", they might slip when talking to people who don't know yet. That would be disastrous right now. It also gives them a little more time to adjust. At least my mother seems to have decided to call me "my child" instead of "my son" when addressing me - that's very considerate of her, since I always flinched inside when she did the "son" thing (without her knowing, of course), even while in denial.

But then again, that is my choice. If someone identifies as trans, and wants to be addressed according to their identified gender even while in the "opposite" mode, that is their right, and common courtesy demands that people follow it even if it feels a bit weird. I do understand that this doesn't come naturally if he doesn't pass well (yet, that will change), but it's just a matter of getting used to it. Remember that this is almost certainly not an easy situation for him, and he is courageous to be open like that. In many ways, my choice is due to cowardice, since I'm just not ready for my less tolerant acquaintances to know about this yet.

[Thylacin]

Why the hostility? Jesus, no wonder so many people are afraid to approach the trans community. He's not purposely misgendering anyone, he's just confused. I'm a trans guy and seeing someone who claims to be FTM yet doesn't even try to pass (as seems to be the case here) would be confusing for me at first too. It's good that the OP came here to learn and try to understand his coworker's situation, a lot of people wouldn't even bother.

Anyway, I wasn't going to comment here because I'm the exact opposite of the coworker. I'm not able to transition yet due to family problems and while I could ask to be referred to as male at work, I don't because I can't even try to pass except around my close friends. I know it would just be confusing if I were to go around demanding to be called male pronouns while looking at least somewhat like a woman (I dress androgynously). Yes, it's great to be yourself and want to be called the correct pronouns but there comes a point where you do have to be mindful of how others are going to view and treat you. But I guess that advice is more for his coworker so I digress.

No hostility is meant. I'm calling the behavior exactly what it is, which is extremely important. If the op is here with the genuine intent to learn, they have to be made aware of how they've been behaving, and they should be willing to hear it and apologize. If I was behaving in an offensively bigoted way, I would appreciate being told so, and I would hope someone would tell me.

[Adam (birkin)]

No hostility is meant. I'm calling the behavior exactly what it is, which is extremely important. If the op is here with the genuine intent to learn, they have to be made aware of how they've been behaving, and they should be willing to hear it and apologize. If I was behaving in an offensively bigoted way, I would appreciate being told so, and I would hope someone would tell me.

To me, a bigot is someone who is intentionally hateful despite having been educated. This guy is coming to us asking us because he doesn't understand. Truly, how many people would take the time to find a site, sign up for it, and make a post trying to understand a coworker who they have a relatively non-personal connection to? To me, that really indicates that he isn't bigoted, he just genuinely has no idea how to relate to this person and wanted to know.

[Seras]

Calling someone out for being bigoted is essentially calling them a bigot. Hide behind semantics if you want to though. Not that coming here and asking people about what he should be doing is bigoted in any way.

I would write a small couple sentences about how I am saying your whole comment there is moronic, but it is ok, because I am not calling you a moron. However I am not socially incapable and understand how it would come off to others, i.e. as rude.

I'm calling the behavior exactly what it is, which is extremely important.

[ThePhoenix]

Hi just confused.  A lot of people have chimed in, but I thought is try answering too.  I think maybe I have a few different things to add, although a lot of it will overlap (and hopefully reinforce) what others have said.  As others have said, it sounds like your employee is quite new, but there are some things as far as best practices for HR and co-workers and a bit of sensitivity toward trans* people that can help.  And, of course, there are places where trans* people can improve too. 

SUGGESTION:  If you and others at work are having difficulty, then a good HR practice is to bring in a speaker to talk about trans* topics.  Don't make your employee try to explain or be the spokesman for all things trans*.  Do bring in someone who actually does that.  We or a local LGBT community center can probably help you or your company HR find someone.

Ok so to start this off, I am not transgendered. I have nothing against the LBGT community and really am here just trying to find out from you all some answers.

First of all, a note about trans* terminology.  Some people feel that "transgender" is mainly inclusive of only a part of the community.  I use trans* because it is the broadest! most inclusive term that takes in all kinds of people.  I work with all kinds of trans* people, so it's a habit for me.  So when you see that, below, that's why.  I'll give you a pass on "transgendered" but you will not I never use it below.  There's a reason.

A few weeks ago the place I work at got a new employee, a transgendered employee. No big deal, like I said, nobody deserves to be discriminated against, and I would stand up for them if I saw it happening. But here's the deal. This person is a girl. Nobody would doubt that. But she demands we all call her "him" or "he" and anytime anyone slips up, she will instantly correct them "hey I'm a guy". Ok so a little strange but no big deal.

As others have said, it sounds like this person is quite new.  Perhaps the thing to understand here is that gender identity is a very real thing.  You have one, I have one, we all have one.  For example, if I offered you $100,000 on the condition that you must change your sex and live as a member of the opposite sex for the rest of your life, what would you do?  Most cisgender people would not take the offer.  Many would be downright apalled by it.  That is their gender identity at work. 

When your gender identity doesn't match the way you are expected to live (like your colleague being expected to live as a girl), it can be extremely painful.  That is why transgender people would (and sometimes do, if they can) spend $100,000 to achieve the goal of changing their sex. 

It can really hurt to be forced to live in a way and in a gender role that makes no sense to you.  That pain is real.  People die because of it.  They end up seeing no other way out.  That's probably why he insists on being considered a guy and called "he."  Other people insisting on calling him "she" feels like people are forcing him to live in a gender that makes no sense and it hurts.  And the pain is real.  Reality is that getting pronouns right is hard so trans* people often just have to endure it.  But that doesn't make it right.

You say that the person is a girl.  But what makes you say that?  When I educate about trans* issues, I often ask is whether people have ever told someone that it's what's inside that counts.  Most people have said this to someone.  Trans* people believe that is actually true--it really is what's inside that counts.  If what's inside of a person (that gender identity) is a guy, then that's what counts and the person is a guy!  That's true even if the person looks like a girl.  So if that's what is inside, he's right!  He's a guy and should be called "he!"

Even if you don't agree, the fact is that calling him "he" costs you nothing.  So try.  You'll be making his life a lot better.

She also will sometimes bring up gender and transgender topics which instantly make me a little uncomfortable. Not because it bothers me, but because I do not want to say anything that could offend them and lose my job over some sexual harassment case.

When gender creates the kind of issues that I explained above, it can be a pretty all consuming issue.  Trans* people often do end up talking about it a lot and it can get annoying.  It just means it's on his mind a lot.  But that doesn't mean you have to discuss that with him constantly.  Feel free to politely change the subject just as you would with anyone else. 

HIM:  Oh, gosh, I can't believe Joe called me a girl again.
YOU:  That sucks.  Hey, did you get the memo about the new project?

Most people get the hint after this happens a few times.

The thing that has really begun to bother me and the other male employees recently though is her using the mens restrooms. I have had them walk on me many times and it is awkward to say the least.

Here's a reality check about bathrooms.  Trans* people use the bathrooms for the same functions as anyone else.  They include defecation, urination, and (at least in my world, maybe not as much in the men's room) fixing their hair.  So what is so awkward about that?

Further reality:  trans* people are frequently assaulted for using the restroom.  For this reason, using restrooms is frequently downright scary for trans* people.  But it's virtually unheard of for a trans* person to do anything to anyone else.  Yet people feeling "awkward" or fears that somehow trans* people are the dangerous ones instead of being the victims are frequently used to attack trans* people in the press, politically, and in other ways. 

This is one on which I am unequivocal:  you just need to get over it.  People gotta pee.  I'm sorry it feels awkward.  You'll get used to it.  If he does something, deal with it as you would any other guy.  If he's just there, then I'm sorry you feel that way.  Feel free to leave and use a different restroom. 

You don't say where you are from.  If you are in the U.S., you should also know that the EEOC has taken the position that denying access to restrooms matching the persons gender identity is discrimination in violation of Title VII.  There are also OSHA regs that require employers to provide restrooms hat employees can actually use.  There are other legal issues here too.  In short, you don't want to go there with trying to oust him from the restroom.  This is a great topic for the trans* trainer I mentioned earlier to discuss.

So basically why I joined this forum was to find out from this community is if this is right, if I should have a talk with them or just drop it. I just think that if you were gonna have other people start calling you by a different name and as the opposite sex, that you should at least be passable as the other sex?

Why?  Remember he's just trying to live his life in a way that makes sense.  Frankly, his only job is to be true to himself.  Not be true to the image of himself that someone else imposes on him.

The other reality is that asking why some trans* people don't pass as the sex they identify with is like asking why all women cannot look like Victoria's Secret models.  Not everyone has the genes to look like the VS models.  And not everyone has the genes to make themselves look like the gender they identify with.  The other reality is that since trans* related health care is specifically excluded under most health insurance plans, treatments that can help a person to pass as the sex they identify with can be out of reach.  But the sincerity and validity of a person's identity is not determined by a genetic roll of the dice or by how much money they have available for doctors. 

The other thing is she doesn't act manly at all, they are very feminine in how they present themselves.

So are many gay men.  In fact, the effeminate gay men are the ones that people tend to think of when they think of gay men.  That does not mean they are women.  And the same is true for trans* people.

The person also has a boyfriend which when I heard that, I quit trying to figure them out anymore or put this person into any "normal" box, which is probably how the person feels anyways..(Is there such thing as a transgendered gay??)...

This confuses a lot of people, but it's actually pretty simple.  Gay men identify as men.  It makes perfect sense to them that they are men and they live their lives as men.  Their gender identity is male.  Their sexual orientation is toward other men, but that doesn't mean they want to be women.  It just means they prefer men sexually. 

Transmen also identify as men.  Their gender identity is male.  Some of them have a sexual orientation toward men and are, therefore gay.  Not only are some trans* people gay! but it is not even that uncommon and it is certainly normal.  That's because sexual orientation and gender identity have little to do with one another. 

SUGGESTION:  don't try to put people in boxes.  Their job is just to be themselves regardless of whether they fit your preconceptions.  Yours is just to treat them with respect and courtesy.  This goes for EVERYONE, not just this one coworker.  And it makes life a lot easier, frankly. 

Like I said I'm not hating on this person at all, quite the contrary they are actually really cool, but a lot of this stuff is just strange for a person who has grown up with men and woman and nothing inbetween..

I hope this helps.  If you have other questions, that trainer is a good person to ask and so is this website.  You can also find a lot just by reading.  For example, I read the crossdressing forum because I totally don't understand crossdressing and I feel like I need to understand it better considering all the work I do with trans* people.  But don't put your coworker in the position of being forced to speak for all trans* people.  Trans* people are just as varied and unique as anyone else.  And being nice to trans* people! basically means treating them the same as anyone else.

[Ltl89]

I would just remind everyone that there a lot of people that don't understand us.  If someone is new to us and trying to learn, that isn't a bad thing.  People will make mistakes and may have a difficult time adjusting to something they haven't been exposed to.  So, even if there are things being said that could be seen as offensive, give the op the benefit of the doubt based on the context it was said in. 

[Rina]

I would just remind everyone that there a lot of people that don't understand us.  If someone is new to us and trying to learn, that isn't a bad thing.  People will make mistakes and may have a difficult time adjusting to something they haven't been exposed to.  So, even if there are things being said that could be seen as offensive, give the op the benefit of the doubt based on the context it was said in.

I agree to this. Even though I (finally, after years of fighting myself) now identify as transsexual, I still do mistakes. Perhaps first of all forgetting about gender-neutral pronouns on some occasions, since they're simply alien to me. I find myself within the binary system, and I don't identify personally with anything else. Still, I try (if I didn't try to understand people that aren't like me, why should I expect cis people to understand me?), and I'm sure I'll get it right in time.

Exactly because of that, when some of my loved ones say things like "I went to school with a MtF transsexual, he has a much better life after transitioning", I don't chop their heads off. I gently correct them if I get the chance, but on some occasions, I simply smile and nod. They meant well. They meant it as support, even as a go-ahead. That kind of support coming from people who are deeply religious and that I expected to carry the "normal" prejudice (like I did until I collapsed... I'm no saint when it comes to tolerance) is simply moving, even if they haven't got their language straight yet. We have to realize this is a very alien concept to many people; it's something they read about in glossy magazines, until they suddenly has a loved one coming out of the closet, or a new co-worker who is openly trans. Give them a break, as long as they seem to be doing their best. If they prove to be bigots, however, it's time for that head chopping (figuratively speaking, obviously...). But in those cases, gentle head chopping. Some of those bigots are trans themselves.

That said, please don't see this as me excusing myself. My own slip-ups are inexcusable. But cis people's? I'd say they're excused as long as they try their best, which of course means they also improve over time. We simply can't expect them to be fully educated immediately.

[LordKAT]

I'm wondering if the OP read our replies and is no longer coming back.

[Cindy]

I'm wondering if the OP read our replies and is no longer coming back.

He made one post on one visit and stayed for 38 minutes. Which was probably as long as it took to write the op.

[LordKAT]

Answers that, maybe not coming back and just wanted people to see their side of the story, so to speak.

[Adam (birkin)]

He might not visit as regularly as we do too, since he just joined. I do hope he sees our replies and still feels welcome.

[E-Brennan]

Why do I regret joining in the discussion in this thread before I've even written anything?  Normally a sign that I should press the "back" button and find something else to do with my time.

This is one on which I am unequivocal:  you just need to get over it.

The above is the single piece of advice that the OP should be taking away with him.  Not in an aggressive, confrontational sense, but in a sense that he and his friends are overthinking all of this, and the overthinking is what's getting them tied up in tortured mental knots.

[ThePhoenix]

A trans* person is, first and foremost, a person.  So basically respecting a trans* person involves just treating them like a person.  I'm not sure what it is with some people that they find out about a person being trans* and suddenly freak out about them doing ordinary, normal things, or they start asking weird inappropriate questions and other such things.  But it all really just comes down to:  people are people.  Just be nice to each other. 

[Cindy]

A trans* person is, first and foremost, a person.  So basically respecting a trans* person involves just treating them like a person.  I'm not sure what it is with some people that they find out about a person being trans* and suddenly freak out about them doing ordinary, normal things, or they start asking weird inappropriate questions and other such things. But it all really just comes down to:  people are people.  Just be nice to each other. 

Amen.

That would solve the problems of this site  -- and of the world!!!

[Emerson]

Thank you for joining this forum so you could understand your coworker better. A lot of people would never ask, they would just judge and marginalize. There are a lot of ways to be a human, you are a respectful and honest one. Your coworker seems brave to me. I hope you understand that.