Name some non-physical traits you consider female/feminine.

[Nero]

Hello guys and dolls.

What are some non-physical traits you consider female/feminine?
List some female traits and then elaborate if you please.

This is not intended to be a debate. If your answer is 'masculine and feminine traits are a myth; a social construct perpetrated by the patriarchy' or something similar, take your arguments to a feminist thread.
I'll be the first to say that many men and women are a mixture of both masculine and feminine traits.

Tell me what's female/feminine. It's in the eye of the beholder.

Thanks.
Nero

[RebeccaFog]

I believe that having real empathy concerning hurting another person's feeling is feminine.

[Pysgod]

Shopping. There's a feminine trait for you.

[tinkerbell]

1.  Choice of words.  We speak a totally different language from males.   
2.  Smiles.  We smile much more than males; there's this secret conspiracy going on when we smile and only other women can understand what we are saying with just a smile.
3.  Affection.  We tend to hug, kiss among one another much more than males do.
4.  Cooperation.  We don't compete with other women (at least in the "real" world we don't), we cooperate and help one another.

tink

[RebeccaFog]

Oh Tink, you're such a show off.   

[Buffy]

I can't parallel park or read maps.

I am also a more considerate and have a greater degree of empathy than I ever had before.

Buffy

[Christine Eryn]

The will to open up and express emotion. Now that I begin the true journey, I can show more sympathy, have more feeling, not be such a "tough guy" anymore.

[Jeannette]

Delicacy

[SusanK]

What are some non-physical traits you consider female/feminine?
List some female traits and then elaborate if you please.

Tell me what's female/feminine. It's in the eye of the beholder.

Behavioral scientists will say there are no non-physical traits universally inclusive of one sex/gender and universally exclusive of the other sex/gender, especially when you look at the divdersity of cultures and societies around the world. There are generalities in a single group and across groups, but none fit the inclusive/exclusive rule. It's the same question I keep asking when I hear people say "Women are..." and "Men are...".  Some, and maybe many are, but not all and some of the other are too.

Part of the reason is that traits many assign to sex/gender aren't, they're personality traits and part of one's temperament and expression, some innate and some learned from socialization with family, friends, school, work, life, etc. And some of either/any sex/gender (not to reinforce the binary standard) will find their own expected traits confining and rebel.

As for, "It's in the eye of the beholder.", it's also in the mind of the individual. And all that said, I'm for individualism, and let the assignment of traits be something to avoid. Simply follow who you are and let the rest take care of itself.

--Susan--

[katia]

honestly, my biggest issue with guys isn't that they never want to show their emotions. men can be very deep, i just wish they would open up more. it's nice to hear what really goes on in their right head, not just sex & girls, sex & girls, sex & girls, sex & girls.

[Nero]

What are some non-physical traits you consider female/feminine?
List some female traits and then elaborate if you please.

Tell me what's female/feminine. It's in the eye of the beholder.

Behavioral scientists will say there are no non-physical traits universally inclusive of one sex/gender and universally exclusive of the other sex/gender, especially when you look at the divdersity of cultures and societies around the world. There are generalities in a single group and across groups, but none fit the inclusive/exclusive rule. It's the same question I keep asking when I hear people say "Women are..." and "Men are...".  Some, and maybe many are, but not all and some of the other are too.

Part of the reason is that traits many assign to sex/gender aren't, they're personality traits and part of one's temperament and expression, some innate and some learned from socialization with family, friends, school, work, life, etc. And some of either/any sex/gender (not to reinforce the binary standard) will find their own expected traits confining and rebel.

As for, "It's in the eye of the beholder.", it's also in the mind of the individual. And all that said, I'm for individualism, and let the assignment of traits be something to avoid. Simply follow who you are and let the rest take care of itself.

--Susan--

Argh. I knew someone would go there without reading my post. My view is that many men and women share both masculine and feminine traits. Some traits are more typical of males, some more typical of females; it doesn't make a man with feminine traits any less masculine, or a woman with masculine traits any less feminine.

Honestly - if the only difference between males and females is the physical body (a view many feminists hold), why would anyone transition? Why the acute dysphoria of transsexuals? I do firmly believe that the male and female mind are programmed differently.

[Elizabeth]

The desire to "feel pretty". There is really nothing in the male psyche that compares. Perhaps a male desire to feel "manly". There is nothing like feeling pretty. It's one of the interesting things that I find about FtM transsexuals. They seem to completely lack this need to "feel pretty". Not only do they not have this need, they find it repulsive. Just as I find masculine behavior repulsive.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[SusanK]

Argh. I knew someone would go there without reading my post. My view is that many men and women share both masculine and feminine traits. Some traits are more typical of males, some more typical of females; it doesn't make a man with feminine traits any less masculine, or a woman with masculine traits any less feminine.

Honestly - if the only difference between males and females is the physical body (a view many feminists hold), why would anyone transition? Why the acute dysphoria of transsexuals? I do firmly believe that the male and female mind are programmed differently.

That's my point, the same as yours, the definition of feminine traits is both a personal and social issue, and yes, there are some identified more with one gender. And it gets to the issue of what is feminine? If a man is a good listener, empathic and supportive, is he feminine for something that's his personality?

I'm sorry if I created the "argh" moment, but I don't see things as masculine or feminine but simply human expressions. It's my nature to look at individuals, and while I'm like everyone and catagorize people, including male or female - damn human nature is each of us - I focus on the person.

I said this because I had to successive bosses, one who you would easily think as female (empathic, like everyone to be happy, talkative, supportive, gentle, etc.) but was a man, and one who was the complete opposite (violative, forceful, assertive, threatening, etc.) but was a woman. They were Charlie Brown and Lucy, so to me there aren't traits traits that are defineable as feminine (or masculine).

And this thread, in my mind, raises the issue (sorry about tangential thinking), why do some transwomen have a near complete reversal of their traits during and after transistion. Or did they really change and while living as men they simply hid the traits they really were to live in the "normal" social world of men?

Maybe transwomen actually disprove the social stereotypes by becoming who they really are and men really aren't what is expected but simply falling into the stereotype. And men aren't what all those (stupid) pseudo-psychology books say men are different.

Ok, to answer your question as intended, feminine to me is simply being yourself, your innate woman as you express it.

--Susan--

ps. Everything I post is with a smile in the vein of good open conversation.

[Steph]

>...

I do firmly believe that the male and female mind are programmed differently.

And I firmly believe that you are right.  I firmly believe that it is the brain that determines all of this gender stuff, the body is merely the vessel that carries it, it's just that it gets on the wrong bus.

Steph

[Nero]

ps. Everything I post is with a smile in the vein of good open conversation.

me too.

I said this because I had to successive bosses, one who you would easily think as female (empathic, like everyone to be happy, talkative, supportive, gentle, etc.) but was a man, and one who was the complete opposite (violative, forceful, assertive, threatening, etc.) but was a woman. They were Charlie Brown and Lucy, so to me there aren't traits traits that are defineable as feminine (or masculine).

Well, just based on the way you've described them - he was a feminine man, she was a masculine woman. If a man has a lot of feminine traits, he's feminine (unless he has an equal to larger number of masculine traits to balance it out); this does not make him any less a man.
If a woman has a lot of masculine traits, she's masculine (unless she has an equal to larger number of feminine traits to balance it out); this doesn't make her any less a woman.

(violative, forceful, assertive, threatening, etc.)

These traits can also be extremely female when exhibited in a feminine manner. Think Delilah, Jezebel, Herodias, Salome, etc. All very female and ridiculously feminine.

And this thread, in my mind, raises the issue (sorry about tangential thinking), why do some transwomen have a near complete reversal of their traits during and after transistion. Or did they really change and while living as men they simply hid the traits they really were to live in the "normal" social world of men?

I do think some mtfs and some ftms overdo it, and act in a way that doesn't come naturally to them. Perhaps out of insecurity and an effort to be 'all woman' or 'all man'. For others, I think it's merely a shedding of the roles they felt compelled to assume due to societal or familial expectations.

But again, I think there's more to the male and female mind than the simple knowledge that you're one or the other.

[mavieenrose]

Hi Nero,

For me there are two that stand out:
1) Empathy; a desire to share the happiness and sadness of others.
2) Wanting to talk with people just for the sake of talking (ie not just to put across 'useful facts'...), I suppose this makes me feel connected with those around me.

MVER XXX

[SusanK]

But again, I think there's more to the male and female mind than the simple knowledge that you're one or the other.

I guess that's the point. Clearly evolution developed the brains slightly differently, but over the eons there has developed far more overlap than the differences from the sheer numbers (people) and the variations multiplied. And that's my point, what is feminine if any number of males express the same trait? And if feminine is a cumulation of traits, what about those women who don't conform with enough? And what if you go to another culture which has a different definition of traits (eg. Saudi culture where men hug and kiss and women don't express outwardly emotions)?

I find it interesting at times to watch women and discover the many unfeminine traits and behavoirs they express, especially in public. Some because social values have changed and some because of their personal expression. But no one doubts they're feminine, and no doubts they question their own feminity. So why do we as (trans)women? If we know it to be true, why do many worry, and some adopt almost exaggerated expressions?

I think it's the age and timing of one's transistion. The younger have the advantage of fewer years as (social) male and easier acceptance in life as women. The older have more stuff to shed and find themselves where they're comfortable in the world and life. It's the onion effect where we have to shed the layers while building new ones. And and the realization of the body (passing), and you have it easier or harder.

It's a good thread and thanks for allowing open thoughts. I'll park the soapbox.

[Thundra]

Honestly - if the only difference between males and females is the physical body (a view many feminists hold), why would anyone transition? Why the acute dysphoria of transsexuals? I do firmly believe that the male and female mind are programmed differently.

Well, that IS the point, is it not? I think that if GID is a mental illness, or dysfunkshun, this is where it lies. In the profound belief that gender and gender roles have absolutes attached to them.

What therapists attempt to bring out, is that you don't have to behave a certain way, or look a certain way, or have certain sexual traits to be this or that. What transitioning folk do, is change their outward appearance so that society is happy with the way they would naturally express themselves.

So, the question of the hour is, where does that programming come from, that tells transitioning people that they DO have to conform to those three traits listed above in order to feel good about expressing their inate actions? There is nothing stopping anyone from doing so, other than those societal standards, no? So, it would be simplistic to say that society determines whether someone has to transition or not.

But I believe, like most things, that it is not that simple. I believe, like most things, that it is a combination of nature AND nurture.

I had to really think, think, think hard about answering your question, because it evokes a great mystery in the human condition. Non-physical traits, that are masculine or feminine?
Since we are physical creatures, how can that be possible?

One example was named. Attitude. Women do seem to have a different attitude toward certain things than men. But, is that brain hard-wiring, or is it hormonal? I believe that we are all more slaves to our hormones than anyone would care to admit. In my own personal experience, the examples are stark in my own mind.

Perhaps if we stopped using masculine, and feminine, and started using passive and aggressive, than we would be closer to be able to state the differences without fouling the waters.

testosterone makes one more:

adventurous (risk-taking)
agressive
forward
passionate

estrogen makes one more:

studied
controlled
easily emoting
content

These are generalizations of course.

It is not that both men and women don't have these qualities, it is that on the average, the groups with a higher level of one than the other will tend to behave more along certain lines.

As a feminist, I am trained to respond that these so-called traits do not exist. As a person that blurred the lines during my life, I can say that certain traits seem to exist, but they are more linked to hormonal balance than sexual characteristics, or gender programming, IMO. So they are neither constant, nor absolute.

Now a more important question might be, why does it matter if transitioning people need to do this to feel comfortable, and why obfuscate something that results in a positive result? Regardless of how you label it, if GID is a problem for some people, than why not help them overcome it, if it will make them happier and more productive? Life really should be that simple.

[Nero]

As a feminist, I am trained to respond that these so-called traits do not exist.

lol I knew I'd catch a few feminists with this worm. Actually, I started this thread because I was accused of being a misogynist by an ftm when another ftm asked which traits are masculine or feminine, and I answered the question with my honest opinion.

One example was named. Attitude. Women do seem to have a different attitude toward certain things than men. But, is that brain hard-wiring, or is it hormonal? I believe that we are all more slaves to our hormones than anyone would care to admit. In my own personal experience, the examples are stark in my own mind.

Perhaps if we stopped using masculine, and feminine, and started using passive and aggressive, than we would be closer to be able to state the differences without fouling the waters.

testosterone makes one more:

adventurous (risk-taking)
agressive
forward
passionate

estrogen makes one more:

studied
controlled
easily emoting
content

These are generalizations of course.

I wouldn't say we're slaves to our hormones. I don't think hormones play that a big a role in our personalities, except in maybe 2 areas: I do think estrogen may make one more emotional, and testosterone may make one more horny.
Other than that, I really don't think so. I have a friend with a hormonal imbalance in that her body produces too much testosterone. She's very feminine looking and acting. She's got all the behaviors traditionally considered as feminine. Also, post-menopausal women have low estrogen levels, but still maintain the personality they had when younger (at least the ones in my family do).
If it was all about estrogen, wouldn't the women's behavioral traits change in the cases I've cited?

I think the trans community puts way too much stock on hormones. That it makes them 'feel' like their target sex.
Other than an mtf suddenly tearing up at movies, and an ftm suddenly wanking off 20 times a day, I doubt it changes anything more than what's physical.

I hear TS going on and on how much they changed on HRT, they're a different person now, etc. Hormones may make one more confident in expressing themselves. Other than that, it's the placebo effect IMO.
You expect a medication to have a certain effect, you'll 'feel' that effect.
Case in point:
Some friends came to me one day wanting a certain drug. I was out. I gave them some aspirin shaped like the pills they were looking for. Shortly, they starting looking and acting high, in the same manner they always did when taking said drug. The next day they came back for more, saying that's the highest they've ever been and what I gave them must be stronger than the batch I had before. It was aspirin!
They *thought* they were high, therefore they felt and acted high.

If you expect testosterone to make you a man, make you 'feel' and act like a man, it follows that you'll start 'feeling' and acting how you think 'man' feels and acts like.
If you expect estrogen to make you a woman, make you 'feel' and act like a woman, it follows that you'll start 'feeling' and acting how you think 'woman' feels and acts like.
HRT may make one more confident in expressing their true personality (due to body changes, etc) in a way they weren't before.

As it stands, I've come across no evidence, no documented proof that HRT affects anything more than the physical body.

[Keira]

The problem is that people are confusing the effect of a lot less anxiety/depression with the hormone's effects. Anxiety/Depression have a much bigger effect on personality than E or T ever could!!! That coupled with a renewed sense of confidence obscures all chemical effects of E or T.

If you gave HRT to a normal male with no anxiety or depression, you could possibly find out the effects... But the anxiety and depression of turning into a woman... would surely obsure the results again