Doctors think I may be Intersexed, Psychs think I'm crazy, Go Team!

[Danniella]

Hey ho everybody,

So here is the thing, I've been going through the evaluation stage of my transition before I am properly referred to a Gender Identity Clinic...this may take some time >.>

Going over my medical history with a fine tooth comb, a number if alarm bells are ringing in the ears of my doctor, below are the bullets...

• I had a male twin that miss carried mid way through my mother's pregnancy, this could indicate that I was originally developing as female but then when the male dies, the womb kept pouring male hormones in and I happened to nom them all like a silly hungry babby, hence the female brain and male body
• At around 3 months old, I was admitted to hospital, not a single doctor could figure out what was wrong with me, but my body temperature kept plummeting and then sky rocketing for no reason. It too 6 months of intensive 24hour care before my body seemed to fix itself, it is still on record as being unexplained
• As soon as I hit puberty, I began suffering intense migraines on a daily basis, my doctor reckons this could have been my female brain rejecting the surge of male hormones that my body was bombarding me with, causing an 8 year chemical war in my head
• Now that I am an adult, I look absolutely nothing like the males in my family, or the females 0.o If you look at a family photo, I stand out like a sore thumb as some half way house between the two genders

So will all these alarm bells, the doctor is considering that I may be intersexed...but the psychologists and therapists I am currently seeing, appear to be convinced that it is simply a psychological condition...neither can come to an agreement.

I don't know if this is simply a case of the doctor seeing a medical problem, while the psychs see a mental problem, because that's what they are trained to identify and counter...but the whole thing is making me so very very confused -.-'

[Danniella]

I dont want to sound discouraging, but...

How You could have been developing into female if You had/have XY chromosome set? Btw, is Your karyotype checked? Is it XY?
A lot of people (myself included) had terrible migraines during their puberty - even those who later develop into normal cisfemales/males. It is just something which comes "with the package". Those are even more frequent with boys, actually.

Nothing of the above-mentioned can rule out possible PAIS or MAIS condition, but You need to check Your karyotype first and then complicated genetics (karyotype test does not help to identify androgen insensitivity syndroms).

Hey,

I don't have a clue ^^

I don't know much about genetics at all, but the doctors have not done any tests yet. They seem quite content with arguing back and forth on the subject for the time being...hopefully I can get some answers soon though :S

In a way I don't actually know if the cause of the dysphoria matters? My main concern is that if something was to crop up that it could interfere or cause issues with any HRT?

[Danniella]

I dont have a clue either Tis' Your body, dear But yes, intersex people suffer from dysphoria too, except that approaches and medications of the HRT will vary among TS and IS. But they NEED and MUST establish if You are intersex - providing that there are reasonable doubts about it and this could only be done via genetic testing. Also, if You are intersex and want to transition, it somehow bears less social stigma than when You diagnosed as transsexual.

Hmmm interesting...I will really need to push my doctors to do some tests then >.>

Thanks for the insight!

[Jamie D]

Hey ho everybody,

So here is the thing, I've been going through the evaluation stage of my transition before I am properly referred to a Gender Identity Clinic...this may take some time >.>

Going over my medical history with a fine tooth comb, a number if alarm bells are ringing in the ears of my doctor, below are the bullets...

• I had a male twin that miscarried mid way through my mother's pregnancy, this could indicate that I was originally developing as female but then when the male dies, the womb kept pouring male hormones in and I happened to nom them all like a silly hungry baby, hence the female brain and male body
• At around 3 months old, I was admitted to hospital, not a single doctor could figure out what was wrong with me, but my body temperature kept plummeting and then sky rocketing for no reason. It too 6 months of intensive 24hour care before my body seemed to fix itself, it is still on record as being unexplained
• As soon as I hit puberty, I began suffering intense migraines on a daily basis, my doctor reckons this could have been my female brain rejecting the surge of male hormones that my body was bombarding me with, causing an 8 year chemical war in my head
• Now that I am an adult, I look absolutely nothing like the males in my family, or the females 0.o If you look at a family photo, I stand out like a sore thumb as some half way house between the two genders

So will all these alarm bells, the doctor is considering that I may be intersexed...but the psychologists and therapists I am currently seeing, appear to be convinced that it is simply a psychological condition...neither can come to an agreement.

I don't know if this is simply a case of the doctor seeing a medical problem, while the psychs see a mental problem, because that's what they are trained to identify and counter...but the whole thing is making me so very very confused -.-'

Interesting, Danniella.

I have to reach back into the distant recesses of my college biology courses, but as I recall, the "womb" (uterus) does not produce any hormones at all.  I seem to remember that estrogen in natal women comes primarily from the ovaries.  A hysterectomy (removal of the uterus) does not affect the estrogen levels, if the ovaries are not also removed.

Testosterone in natal women comes from both the ovaries and the adrenal glands above the kidneys.

I do not remember if "freemartinism" occurs in humans, as it does in some other mammals, such as cattle.  A freemartin is a female dizygotic twin that shares some genetic material (in utero) with her male twin, acquiring male characteristics.  I believe it is due to fused placentas.

I certainly could be wrong about this, but I think that (almost) all of the testosterone in a pregnancy emanates from the male fetus, itself.

[Danniella]

Interesting, Danniella.

I have to reach back into the distant recesses of my college biology courses, but as I recall, the "womb" (uterus) does not produce any hormones at all.  I seem to remember that estrogen in natal women comes primarily from the ovaries.  A hysterectomy (removal of the uterus) does not affect the estrogen levels, if the ovaries are not also removed.

Testosterone in natal women comes from both the ovaries and the adrenal glands above the kidneys.

I do not remember if "freemartinism" occurs in humans, as it does in some other mammals, such as cattle.  A freemartin is a female dizygotic twin that shares some genetic material (in utero) with her male twin, acquiring male characteristics.  I believe it is due to fused placentas.

I certainly could be wrong about this, but I think that (almost) all of the testosterone in a pregnancy emanates from the male fetus, itself.

Oooooooh interesting

I don't have the first clue about any of this unfortunately..."Dammit Jim I'm an Artist not a Doctor!" So most of the time the GP is explaining things in layperson terminology. He pretty much said "Things happen in the womb yo! Sometimes things go south and ->-bleeped-<- ain't so tight, yah dig?" -he is much more "street" in my memory for some reason-

But thanks for the insight, much interesting developments.

[genderhell]

I can understand you want to know the cause of why you had to suffer so much. However, most people here don't seem have had the hormonal "chemical war" in their heads.

I thought that the "chemical war" was "gender dysphoria".

My problem of the "chemical war" is from my thyroid.

Good luck.

[Suziack]

If you got to an orthopedic doctor, he'll say that dysphoria is caused by misalignment of bones that surround the brain. If you go to an allergist, he'll tell you that dysphoria is caused by an allergy to gluten (or something). They only see what they want to see, and what will keep bringing you back to their office for treatment. Get it? Although you may already be considering it, I recommend to, as much as possible, dismiss these "psychologists," and if you need to do so, find someone who can help you wade through the issues that you're facing, and those that you will be facing in the future, without arguing with your physicians over who is right! Since they have not even seen karotype results for you, I would be so mad at these "psychologists!"

[JesseG]

Hi Danniella,
A karyotype is a relatively simple genetic test that looks at the outward appearance (and presence of) your chromosomes. Those would be the twig-shaped bundles of dna in your cells. Google 'karyotype' and you'll see a picture of someone's chromosomes all laid out and numbered.

This would give you a significant piece of evidence: the arrangement of your X / Y sex chromosomes. There are lots of other tests to identify specific genes, but this one is the sort of "overall dna checkup".

[mottec]

Hi
I just wonder, how did you come to identify as transgender. In childhood, any events or what else?

You know I dont even know if intersex people are all transgender to some degree or are not? I mean the feminization Ive had(im possibly mais/pais) migh be both brain and body?

anyone has some insight

[Dena]

Welcome to Susan's Place. Intersex is one of those wait and see conditions. If a child is diagnosed as intersected, medical intervention should wait until the child expresses their gender. Most often than that mean waiting for puberty. They are not so much transexual as they exist with a body of both genders. They have much in common with transsexual in that they need to learn where the are comfortable but they arrive at common grounds through a different path.

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[Serenation]

Hi
I just wonder, how did you come to identify as transgender. In childhood, any events or what else?

You know I dont even know if intersex people are all transgender to some degree or are not? I mean the feminization Ive had(im possibly mais/pais) migh be both brain and body?

anyone has some insight

intersex people have the same ratio of being transgender as anyone. From my experience and talking to others the whole realising your transgender bit happens the same whether someone is intersex or not.

Old thread but now I wonder if the OP ever got tested.

[HughE]

intersex people have the same ratio of being transgender as anyone.

That's quite simply not true. There's quite a lot of overlap between the two conditions, which makes sense since there's plenty of evidence pointing to them having the same underlying cause: abnormal hormone levels during your prenatal development, which causes the process of sexual development to go wrong. This is one of the things that gets talked about in the "Fear of a Pink Planet" chapter in Deborah Rudacille's "The Riddle of Gender"

In this excerpt:


She mentions how 45 percent of Harry Benjamin's patients had symptoms of hypogonadism. On the preceding page, she says how the psychiatric establishment try to downplay the fact that ->-bleeped-<- has a physical cause because "it poses a direct challenge to their power and authority as gatekeepers of services for trans people".

One of the aspects of DES exposure is that it produced high rates of intersexuality as well as gender dysphoria, again a strong indication that the two are linked.

If you look at this paper:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19446080

It talks about the animal research showing that exposure to external hormones early in pregnancy induces intersexed/cross-sexed genital development, whereas exposure during the later stages induces cross-sexed brain development.

It's also well established that FTM ->-bleeped-<- is associated with hyperandrogenism, which is arguably a type of intersex condition:
http://library.transgenderzone.com/?page_id=2071#.Vfk1xRFViko

From what I've seen, MTFs have a much higher incidence of the converse condition, hypogonadism, than the cis male population, although I don't know of any research off hand where that's been looked at.

[Serenation]

As someone who's had to live it HughE I agree with you, but medical professionals constantly tell me being inter-sexed is nothing to do with transgender and the ratio's are identical. I've had other intersex people tell me this also. The head of the genetics in the Royal Melbourne hospital wrote a letter to me GP saying this also.

So I will just say what the professionals say whether I personally agree or not.

[valente.nava.9]

I agree with serenation doll


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HughE]

I just wonder, how did you come to identify as transgender. In childhood, any events or what else?

I've had a feeling of somehow being different from other people from a very young age, and as a child, had a much closer affinity with girls than most boys did. I did have some male friends though, up until around the time I reached puberty. Then suddenly all my former friends didn't want to know me any more, and I ended up being more or less totally ostracised and shut out of things throughout my high school years. At the time I didn't understand why, but now I realise it was because I was very feminine looking and had female body language, which most people (especially teenagers) tend not to react very well towards when it comes from someone they perceive as being male.

As far as gender identity is concerned I've never identified as a woman, it's more a feeling of not really being male or female, but kind of a mixture of the two (if that makes sense, which it probably doesn't!).

You know I dont even know if intersex people are all transgender to some degree or are not? I mean the feminization Ive had(im possibly mais/pais) migh be both brain and body?

As I said in my reply to Serenation, they both have the same underlying cause - some kind of hormonal irregularity during the time your prenatal development is taking place.

Contrary to popular belief, the sex you develop as doesn't depend on whether you have a Y chromosome or not, but on what hormones are present during your prenatal development. By default the fetus develops as female, and male development only takes place if there's androgenic hormones (testosterone and its derivative DHT) present and able to do their job.

If you have a Y chromosome, it causes your undifferentiated gonads to turn into testicles, which then promptly start churning out lots of testosterone and DHT. However, it's these hormones and not anything else that actually cause you to develop as male, and if anything goes wrong with that hormone production (or prevents the hormones form acting), then, depending on how completely the hormone action is suppressed, you'll end up intersexed or even entirely female (e.g. see http://www.secondtype.info/ais.htm ).

With the various forms of AIS, androgenic hormones are produced as normal, but a mutation to the gene for the androgen receptor means that response to androgenic hormones is reduced or even taken away altogether. In the more severe, complete form of the syndrome, you end up with someone who is to all intents and purposes a woman, despite being genetically male and having internal testicles in place of ovaries (and normal to above normal male levels of testosterone!).

The reason intersexuality and ->-bleeped-<- are related is because androgenic hormones drive not just masculinization of the genitals, but masculinization of the brain too. There's now a considerable body of evidence showing that ->-bleeped-<- has the same underlying cause as intersex (i.e. something went wrong with your hormones during your prenatal development), it's just that the abnormal hormone situation occurred later in the pregnancy, after the critical period for genital development (from 7 to 12 weeks after conception) had already ended, and when the main thing still ongoing is brain development.

[mottec]

HughE

My story is very similar to yours. Quite popular until puberty, and the shunned by all the guys. I was always playing with guys in childhood, if they let me...lol

My intersex is unknown, but I have one normal testicle and normal penis, normal body hair, normal voice, but when Im overweight I have some female characteristics.

I think Im slightly transgendered also in my mannerisms. Thanks for the reply. I feel more at ease now, and think I will progress for a diagnosis of some sort.

[Bunter]

About the twin- I think what you might be thinking about is "vanished twin", a condition caused by a twin that died and was absorbed by the living embryo in the very early stages of pregnancy. The surviving twin can in rare cases grow around that dead embryo. I have a relative with that condition. It can cause genetic mosaic, and in rare cases when the twin was of the opposite sex, it might cause some intersex symptoms, either through the XY cells or because the dead embryo starts producing hormones.
The absorbed twin can be found in the body of the living adult. Remember this is *very* rare, and it doesn't cause transgender.
But if your mother lost your twin in the 3rd month- it would have been rather big I think. I'm not sure if it could still have been absorbed. Also, did the doctors take out the dead twin? Then it couldn't cause any changes in you.