what is your reason for RLE to be valid or invalid

[kelly_aus]

like i said i've seen both sides of this, believe me the doctors are trying to do whats best for you, despite what you may think. I question the true motives of people that dont understand this.

I question the motives of many around here.

[stephaniec]

I thinks its proper before grs because it forces you think about what your doing. I don't know what percentage of transgender leaning people would wake up one morning and say to themselves they need to be female and if there were no time restrictions for HRT and surgery would get up in the morning and by afternoon be asking to set up an appointment for surgery. I some how think that would be a bad idea.

[jebee]

I did the RLE before HRt and i didn't pass yes i got abuse, but so what life is hard, get over it.

[jebee]

You probably wont believe this, but sometimes I wonder about that too .

But knowing the system, I seriously doubt if they would ever let someone who is rather androgyne than classic MtF to transition .

would it even be a good idea?

[stephaniec]

sorry, I'm starting to get confused

[jebee]

For the person concerned or for system as such? Answers would be opposite in both cases but difference between them is a human life.

from a medical point of view giving people treatment that could harm instead of doing good is a very bad thing indeed.

[Beverly]

This raises a good point - even if you are told you have to do RLE before HRT - how the heck are they going to know? I mean, do you have to start taking photos and saying 'look there's me shopping', 'there's me driving', 'there's me at work'.

I was not  going to return to this but since a lot of people seem to have no idea what RLE is really like...

In the UK (I cannot speak for the USA) the clinic simply requires documentary proof. For instance they like to see that you have changed your name and updated your tax records - a pay slip will do. This means you have outed yourself to your company, or at least personnel, the Inland Revenue and probably the people you work with. It is hard not to out yourself if you update your payslip and one payslip is not enough, they want a continuous series spanning months. They like you to change your medical details at your GP. They like to see other things like club memberships in your female name, utility bills, council tax bills, car insurance, credit card statements, bank statements, etc etc.

How much paper can you change, telling people you are female and then happily live a male lifestyle? In one respect it is the precise opposite of the CrossDresser's problem - they have to be so careful when out as female because all their paperwork is that of a male.

If you truly have dysphoria then changing all your paperwork is the first step in divesting yourself of the wrong gender. Is anyone really going to go to that amount of trouble for a bit of a laugh? For a joke? If you are silly enough, and determined enough, to fake all this then the Clinic will reckon you get what you deserve. They will not really care what you wear or how your hair is cut. That is your problem, but if you change all your documentation and then turn up wearing bovver boots and beard then they will probably reckon you have other issues that need addressing. They are probably right as well.

Transition is not one sided. The doctors will help you, but you have to help yourself too. There is no point in being lazy about it. To transition well takes a lot of work.

[jebee]

I was not  going to return to this but since a lot of people seem to have no idea what RLE is really like...

In the UK (I cannot speak for the USA) the clinic simply requires documentary proof. For instance they like to see that you have changed your name and updated your tax records - a pay slip will do. This means you have outed yourself to your company, or at least personnel, the Inland Revenue and probably the people you work with. It is hard not to out yourself if you update your payslip and one payslip is not enough, they want a continuous series spanning months. They like you to change your medical details at your GP. They like to see other things like club memberships in your female name, utility bills, council tax bills, car insurance, credit card statements, bank statements, etc etc.

How much paper can you change, telling people you are female and then happily live a male lifestyle? In one respect it is the precise opposite of the CrossDresser's problem - they have to be so careful when out as female because all their paperwork is that of a male.

If you truly have dysphoria then changing all your paperwork is the first step in divesting yourself of the wrong gender. Is anyone really going to go to that amount of trouble for a bit of a laugh? For a joke? If you are silly enough, and determined enough, to fake all this then the Clinic will reckon you get what you deserve. They will not really care what you wear or how your hair is cut. That is your problem, but if you change all your documentation and then turn up wearing bovver boots and beard then they will probably reckon you have other issues that need addressing. They are probably right as well.

Transition is not one sided. The doctors will help you, but you have to help yourself too. There is no point in being lazy about it. To transition well takes a lot of work.

plus 1, this has put it perfectly!!!

[Beverly]

RLT implies that in order to be a true transexual and therefore worthy of treatment, you have to become a walking stereotype.

No, that is not the case. See my post previous to this one

Its not the concept of HRT that bothers me, on paper it does make sense, but this is the real world, and its governend by weak and reactionary individuals, and the only thing one can do is play the system.

Playing the system is fine - until it goes wrong.

There's quite a few people on this site who have transitioned pre-HRT and performed RLT pre-HRT and their lives have imploded spectacularly and horrifically.

That proves nothing. There are people on this site using no-RLE / Infromed consent and they have had it go horribly wrong too.

And, I have kind of noticed that those who have commented with "I think RLT is a good idea" and "I did RLE for a whole year and I didn't have any problems" interestingly tend to be very passable as their target sex pre HRT/FFS etc....  So trust me, and others, its a very different state of play when you don't have the luxury of passing before treatment

There is no way I "passed" before treatment. I was a 47 year bloke with medium male pattern baldness, 4 stones overweight, a deep voice and a body covered in hair. Forearms like a chimp. My first ladies clothes were size 22. I am not alone with it either. I know of others who managed it too.

At the GIC I have seen people there discussing their hormone results and they still look like men. They are already on hormones and the do not pass. In spite of that they seem to get on with stuff. What do you suggest that they do? They do not want to live as blokes, but by your logic that is what they should do. Sorry - it will not work.

[Beverly]

Wow! Do You really can change in the UK all this documentation without undergoing SRS before???

Yes. I have changed EVERYTHING and I am pre-SRS. There is a simple form online that lets you change all your government records in one go (see the last link below)

https://www.gov.uk/change-name-deed-poll

https://www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/report-changes/individual/name-address.htm

[Beverly]

Cool! Such approach starts making sense at least. Here where I am, You cant change anything until Your papers are changed - and You can only change Your papers after SRS.

In the past, the clinics found that people needed to make some sort of commitment to their transition. The problem was that when simply given the pills and left to get on with things, many people never socially transitioned. After a while they had feminised to the point that other people were confused by these individuals and treated them oddly or badly. Gender Dysphoria is essentially an anxiety disorder and these people where amplifying their anxiety and making things worse.

So the doctors/shrinks looked for some commitment to the process. They wanted to be sure that the social transition happened and so they came up with the "RLE". The great uninformed assumed that this meant flouncing around in a dress and a high pitched voice. It does not. It means that you start telling people and start making changes in your life.

RLE has nothing to do with clothing. People here jumping up and down screaming about looking like a man in a dress have it wrong. The UK's largest clinic at Charing Cross says

"The RLE, sometimes called the Real Life Test is the period of time when a person lives 100% in their preferred gender. This means that they are known to their friends and family as well as at work (paid or voluntary) or at their place of study or daily occupation as their preferred gender."

"Dress and act as you feel most comfortable. This is a safe space and anything that people generally wear in public is fine."

- http://www.wlmht.nhs.uk/gi/gender-identity-clinic/frequently-asked-questions/

[sally1990]

I did the RLE before HRt and i didn't pass yes i got abuse, but so what life is hard, get over it.

Didn't know life was hard

I question the motives of many around here.

Doctors are never wrong , and 2 different doctors can never have different opinions


As for the clothes argument about RLE , then I was already living RLE beforehand. One therapist told me it wasn't needed or necessary and another insisting me to come in female clothes. I really wish I had of known that , if that is the case here in Australia.

[ConfusedHumanUK]

I was not  going to return to this but since a lot of people seem to have no idea what RLE is really like...

In the UK (I cannot speak for the USA) the clinic simply requires documentary proof. For instance they like to see that you have changed your name and updated your tax records - a pay slip will do. This means you have outed yourself to your company, or at least personnel, the Inland Revenue and probably the people you work with. It is hard not to out yourself if you update your payslip and one payslip is not enough, they want a continuous series spanning months. They like you to change your medical details at your GP. They like to see other things like club memberships in your female name, utility bills, council tax bills, car insurance, credit card statements, bank statements, etc etc.

How much paper can you change, telling people you are female and then happily live a male lifestyle? In one respect it is the precise opposite of the CrossDresser's problem - they have to be so careful when out as female because all their paperwork is that of a male.

If you truly have dysphoria then changing all your paperwork is the first step in divesting yourself of the wrong gender. Is anyone really going to go to that amount of trouble for a bit of a laugh? For a joke? If you are silly enough, and determined enough, to fake all this then the Clinic will reckon you get what you deserve. They will not really care what you wear or how your hair is cut. That is your problem, but if you change all your documentation and then turn up wearing bovver boots and beard then they will probably reckon you have other issues that need addressing. They are probably right as well.

Transition is not one sided. The doctors will help you, but you have to help yourself too. There is no point in being lazy about it. To transition well takes a lot of work.

That's a good way of putting it I guess (For the record, I wasn't asking because I intend to do so, I was more curious how they define the RLE and determine if you've done it or not).

There was me planning on changing my name before even seeking therapy

This is going to be a topic that is never ending, and will never have a right answer.

I can see the issue/solution on both sides of the fence. Those who've already done RLE without HRT are obviously 'in the know' so know exactly what it entails, and know how they are treated. For those who've not done it, all they see is this impossible task, that will end in them getting shouted at, hit, or even killed. Obviously that's unlikely to be the case, but hopefully you see what I'm saying.

I know the attitude from several here is basically 'suck it up'. But I cant help feeling that there's no way that could ever apply to everyone. If you're a confident, outgoing, chirpy, social person it'll probably work very well. If you've got few friends, low self-esteem, social anxiety, etc then it's going to be a much bigger challenge.

To simplify it a bit. Think of people with a fear of flying. There are those that will get on, feel a bit scared but think " Screw it, I'm going somewhere nice and sunny!" and there are those that freeze at the door, and bail out in a state of intense anxiety and fear. They're both trying to get to the same place. One of them is just a lot mentally stronger.

It's an interesting debate. As I said though, whilst there are good points on either side, there will never be a way to say for certain if EVERYONE should or should not do RLE before HRT. It really does come down to the individual person and what their mental and emotional state is.

This all being said, I'm now very much confused by the above couple of posts regarding what RLE is actully officially classed as. I was always lead to believe it was:

- Official name change
- Out to work/family/friends/world
- Present as your identified gender (i.e Female for MTF) on a day to day basis.

However if the above information is correct, the actual RLE is:

- Official name change
- Out to work/family/friends (but not world?)
- Present however the hell you like

[Beverly]

There was me planning on changing my name before even seeking therapy

That is what I did. It saves you a lot of time later because they generally accept a Deed Poll / Statutory Declaration as your RLE start date. By the time you get to the GRS interviews your RLE period will be well along and maybe even complete.

To simplify it a bit. Think of people with a fear of flying. There are those that will get on, feel a bit scared but think " Screw it, I'm going somewhere nice and sunny!" and there are those that freeze at the door, and bail out in a state of intense anxiety and fear. They're both trying to get to the same place. One of them is just a lot mentally stronger.

My mother is terrified of flying. She gets help to get get on the plane. I had help from local support groups in my RLE. I fail to see why people cannot be helped in this process. I think it would make it a lot easier for a lot of people.

This all being said, I'm now very much confused by the above couple of posts regarding what RLE is actully officially classed as. I was always lead to believe it was:

- Official name change
- Out to work/family/friends/world
- Present as your identified gender (i.e Female for MTF) on a day to day basis.

However if the above information is correct, the actual RLE is:

- Official name change
- Out to work/family/friends (but not world?)
- Present however the hell you like

If you update your name, medical records, bank records, HMRC records, etc then you ARE out to work/family/friends/world. "Present however the hell you like" is true enough but I was cautious enough to turn up at the clinic in something feminine and with my nails painted. I find wearing male clothes unpleasant so I wear ladies' jeans most days, heeled ankle boots and a fairly plain blouse. Next I started working on my voice, letting my hair grow and having bristles pulled out. Most people never noticed.

[Joan]

Yes. I have changed EVERYTHING and I am pre-SRS. There is a simple form online that lets you change all your government records in one go (see the last link below)

https://www.gov.uk/change-name-deed-poll

https://www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/report-changes/individual/name-address.htm

Can I ask a question about this?

In order to change the passport you need a gender recognition certificate, and to get one of those don't you need two years of RLE?

This is a really fantastic thread that is really clarifying a lot of things.

[Beverly]

Can I ask a question about this?

In order to change the passport you need a gender recognition certificate, and to get one of those don't you need two years of RLE?

This is a really fantastic thread that is really clarifying a lot of things.

A GRC is not required but you can use one if you have one. The following link lists documents that can be used. Any ONE is sufficient

https://www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information/changing-your-gender

[stephaniec]

A GRC is not required but you can use one if you have one. The following link lists documents that can be used. Any ONE is sufficient

https://www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information/changing-your-gender

yes , good information thanks

[Joan]

A GRC is not required but you can use one if you have one. The following link lists documents that can be used. Any ONE is sufficient

https://www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information/changing-your-gender

Thank you for helping me out with that.

[stephaniec]

does any one know the process of changing your identity to female in the US how long does it take and do you have to have grs before or after changing the documents .

[Anatta]

Kia Ora Steph,

Perhaps this might help : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_transsexualism_in_the_United_States

Metta Zenda