Male-ness and Female-ness

[kerala]

Greetings all,

So, how do you define male-ness and female-ness?

I see a lot of people saying, for example, that they just want to "get rid of their male-ness" or, perhaps, that they "have always felt like a man in a women's body".  I'm curious though that these concepts of male/masculine/man and female/feminine/woman are never particularly well defined.  The assumption is that everyone already knows these common meanings and that the male-ness that one person might want to "get rid of" is the same kind of male-ness that someone else feels is "trapped within their female form".

This boundary point between the genders is interesting for me. There is a lot science which seems to indicate pretty clearly that there is no evidence at all for a female or male brain, with nearly all behavioural differences being ascribed to differential social / familial expectations and upbringing.  (eg Delusions of Gender, Cordelia Fine, http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1848312202)

On the other hand, I also read many reports of the profound psychological and behavioural changes experienced by those undertaking hormone therapy and SRS. (eg Conundrum, Jan Morris, http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0571209467)

I know many women who are aggressive, physical and have difficulties expressing their thoughts and feeling.  These are qualities often associated with "Men", yet can be displayed by any female without it being a "gender problem". I also know many men who are sensitive, creative, will talk for hours non-stop and are terribly nurturing of colleagues, friends, significant others and children.  These are qualities often associated with "Women" yet men can easily display these behaviours without any concerns of effeminacy.

There seems to be such variance in the behavioural realm that I wonder, then, if it might be useful to detach individual behaviours from any kind of gender specific labelling. If anyone, man or woman, can be aggressive or nurturing without claims of gender inappropriateness, then perhaps it's no longer helpful to think of these qualities as essentially masculine or feminine. 

There are, of course, some behaviours that ARE well policed by society and a lot of these revolve around public presentation of the self.  In this group I include presentational choices such as clothes, hair, voice and make-up/accessories. Get any one of these "wrong" or "mixed up" and you will probably receive a raised eyebrow at the very least. Which is a shame because I had some fabulous skirts.  It goes without saying that the normative display of hetero-sexuality is also well policed.

So, is there anything else that you feel is quintessentially feminine or masculine? Qualities or behaviours that simply cannot be displayed by the other gender without censure by society?  Qualities or behaviours that you personally are trying to diminish or increase?

By asking these questions I am not by any means advocating or privileging the male-female binary view. I totally accept that, for some, such thinking is very limiting.  However, if you feel you are transitioning "from" somewhere "to" somewhere else, or simply wanting to express an inner part of yourself that has not seen the light of day, I'd be interested in how you define the place you have come from and your destination.

For the record, my point of view is London based.  I'd be really interested in international differences you have noticed. For example, presenting as a man with an earring in London is utterly inconsequential (unless you are trying to get a junior job in a bank).  However, wearing an earring in some Latin or Arabic countries was like wearing a flashing sign saying "please hassle me".

Regards to you all

Kerala

P.S. I noticed that the Susan's wiki has lots of definitions, but nothing about Masculine and Feminine!
PPS: I have seen the recent post on The Transgender Brain - WPATH conference report and am digesting...

[suzifrommd]

Femininity and masculinity to me are ideals. They're multifaceted concepts rather than something that can be quantified or even concretely defined.

Values associated with femininity:
* Cooperation
* Nurture
* Connection
* Caring
* Understanding
* Sensitivity
* Support
* Beauty
* Flavor
* Fragrance
* Flexibility
* Decoration

Values associated with masculinity:
* Strength
* Power
* Protection
* Construction
* Durability
* Steadfastness
* Stoicism
* Confidence
* Self control
* Productivity
* Usefulness

[peky]

Dear Kerala,

Several things we need to keep in mind when discussing this topic:
a) first we have to separate the gender roles, which are mostly a cultural construction or attribute from those behaviors who derived by gender physiology (nature), e.g. those effects caused directly the estrogen and testosterone;
b) second we have to consider the anatomical determinants of maleness and femaleness that are so central to our GID =e.g. breast, vagina, facial hair),
c) third, our congruence between body and brain is an innate biologically driven phenomena not subject to manipulation as far at the brain is concerned;
d) fourth, we must keep in mind that there is no such a thing as a perfect female or male brain, every human is a mixture of female and male attributes, it does not matter whether this attributes are hard-wired (nature) or acquired (natured) attributes, and
d) finally, that we (our brain) are not static, we change and evolve....

Peky

[Edge]

So, how do you define male-ness and female-ness?

For me, I define it as whatever it means to the person. Ambiguous, I know, but that's the way I believe people are. I am my own man same as every other man is their own man and same as every person of any gender is their own person of any gender. Does that make sense?
I don't know about other people, but if I were to say I want to get rid of my "femaleness," I would mean I want to get rid of the parts of the mask that are left. I copied behaviours from girls when I was younger and some of them are now habit even though they make me uncomfortable. Not necessarily because they're considered "feminine," but because they are not me and were a part of a fake persona I had during a painful time of my life.
As for always feeling like a man in a woman's body, not everyone feels that way, but I do. It is very physical for me. My body looks and feels wrong and I feel totally disconnected from it at best and disturbed by it at worse. It has nothing to do with society. If I was completely alone on a desert island, I would still be upset by how typically female my body is. (By which, of course, I mean boobs, skin texture, facial structure, hips and curves, etc.)

This boundary point between the genders is interesting for me. There is a lot science which seems to indicate pretty clearly that there is no evidence at all for a female or male brain, with nearly all behavioural differences being ascribed to differential social / familial expectations and upbringing.

Actually, there is plenty of evidence that there are structural differences between male and female brains. By plenty of evidence, I mean you could dissect a brain and see it.
(Although I should point out that biology is not necessarily black and white. For some reason, people like to think it is though.)
However, it is true that there is no scientific evidence of gender roles which are something completely different and are completely ridiculous. Please don't confuse the two.

On the other hand, I also read many reports of the profound psychological and behavioural changes experienced by those undertaking hormone therapy and SRS.

That's because our gender identities are based on the structures of our brains (according to studies done so far) and not on societal roles. At least mine is. Some people say differently, but I honestly can't understand them. (I don't say this to be mean. I just mean it's too far from my own experiences for me to understand. Does that make sense?)

There seems to be such variance in the behavioural realm that I wonder, then, if it might be useful to detach individual behaviours from any kind of gender specific labelling. If anyone, man or woman, can be aggressive or nurturing without claims of gender inappropriateness, then perhaps it's no longer helpful to think of these qualities as essentially masculine or feminine.

I agree with this 200% and think it was never useful to think of these qualities as "masculine" or "feminine." I also find it annoying when people insist that I have to be either/or. Like, even when they know I hate gender roles, they tell me "it's ok to be a feminine man." Yes, it is ok, but that completely dismisses a huge part of my personality because I am not either/or neither am I in one spot in between. There's also this idea that being more "feminine" makes someone less "masculine" and vice versa and that's completely ridiculous. They're all arbitrary traits. Of course people are going to mix and match. Sorry for the rant. I wish people would stop pretending they exist (including the people who claim to "subvert them"... by pretending they exist). If they stopped pretending, they would stop perpetuating their existence.

Which is a shame because I had some fabulous skirts.

Skirts are so comfy, they're like wearing nothing at all. One of the good things about being a metalhead is that men in skirts are not uncommon.

So, is there anything else that you feel is quintessentially feminine or masculine?

Identifying as female is feminine and identifying as male is masculine. That's about where it stops biologically as far as I know.

Qualities or behaviours that simply cannot be displayed by the other gender without censure by society?

Personally, I've noticed that jumping all over the "feminine and masculine spectrum" (which I don't believe in) like a ping pong ball tends to confuse people.

Qualities or behaviours that you personally are trying to diminish or increase?

There are certain behaviours that I incorporated into my mask that became habit that make me uncomfortable due to the fact that they're fake and the reason I incorporated them.

However, if you feel you are transitioning "from" somewhere "to" somewhere else, or simply wanting to express an inner part of yourself that has not seen the light of day, I'd be interested in how you define the place you have come from and your destination.

I define my destination as finally looking like myself or, at least, getting as close as I possibly can. I guess if I were to see myself as coming from somewhere, it would be from a very dark place behind a mask that I lost myself behind and I never want to go back. I am currently at a place where I am true to myself, but don't look like myself yet.


Disclaimer: These are all based on myself, my experiences, and are my opinions. Other people are different as are all people.

[ThePhoenix]

Hmmmm.... I don't know what science would suggest that there are no physical differences between male and female brains.  I think the science is pretty clearly opposite of that. 

As far as the social differences, I don't know.  I encounter a lot of transmen who seem to express a lot of social/behavior qualities that make me think "my god that person acts like a woman."  And I encounter a lot of transwomen who express a lot of social/behavioral qualities that make me think "my god that person acts like a man."  And interacting with transwomen and being expected by many of them to be "one of them" often does pose many of the same impossibilities that trying to interact with men as a (supposed) man did for me.  It just wasn't possible.  But I've never found a good way of explaining why that was so.

I often have trans* people (and cis-people too, for that matter) tell me that I send off such a "strong signal," or give off a "vibe," or "come across as" a woman much more clearly, strongly, and unambiguously than most trans* people.  So I ask them what they mean by that.  And invariably they can't really give an answer except to repeat the vague statement about a "strong signal," or "vibe," or "coming across as."  I've been trying to figure out what that actually means for a long time . . . But it continues to elude me.  And so far no one has managed to express what it actually is. 

Slightly OT complaint:  I do sometimes wish I didn't feel like everyone else's (including trans* people's) laboratory or teaching tool for developing an understanding of gender.  I get a little tired of having people start out statements about trans* issues by pointing at me and saying "well, take someone like <my name> here . . . ."  I wonder if others have similar irritations or whether this is just my personal aversion for being pointed at.

Dear Kerala,

Several things we need to keep in mind when discussing this topic:
a) first we have to separate the gender roles, which are mostly a cultural construction or attribute from those behaviors who derived by gender physiology (nature), e.g. those effects caused directly the estrogen and testosterone;
b) second we have to consider the anatomical determinants of maleness and femaleness that are so central to our GID =e.g. breast, vagina, facial hair),
c) third, our congruence between body and brain is an innate biologically driven phenomena not subject to manipulation as far at the brain is concerned;
d) fourth, we must keep in mind that there is no such a thing as a perfect female or male brain, every human is a mixture of female and male attributes, it does not matter whether this attributes are hard-wired (nature) or acquired (natured) attributes, and
d) finally, that we (our brain) are not static, we change and evolve....

Although peky makes some good points, I would be wary of inferring that they are universally true or certain.  For example:  gender roles are probably influenced by a combination of social issues and biology.  Anatomical issues are not central to many people's gender identity issues, including GID.  And if (c) is attempting to explain the biological basis of trans*ness, then it is certainly a hypothesis, but it is hardly something that has been proven.  Etc.

[helen2010]

From where I sit there isn't really a maleness or a femaleness in the sense that there are distinctly or uniquely male or female attributes.  All folk have access to the full range of attributes - the fact that they don't choose to develop, integrate and utilise these attributes speaks to their individual choice based on their situation, role models and sense of possibility.

Of course the individual may believe that their choices are constrained by convention, expectation, socio economic status, physique, cultural heritage etc but this is a belief and the only substance that it possesses is that which the individual or it's community attributes to it.  In short for me behavior, roles, heros etc are social constructs and the choices made reflects their decisions and  it is their performance and their reality.

From the above you might conclude that I am firmly in the nurture/socialised camp but I am not.  I have moved from a life beset by intense gender dysphoria and sense of dislocation  to one where I feel empowered, centred and at peace courtesy of HRT.  From an absolute obsession with cross dressing and transitioning to one where I am closer to a mid point, a balancing point, an emotional equilibrium courtesy of HRT leads me to conclude that the brain is gendered that it needs the appropriate hormones for peace of mind and the possibility of an authentic, self authored life.  With that possibility I have the opportunity to select the role and presentation that works best for me rather than be forced to accept a role defined and selected by others.

If my presentation and behaviours are seen by some as male or female then frankly that is their spin and their paradigm with all of the constraints that this involves.

[Missadventure]

My best friend and I were discussing this topic the other day. I've spent my whole life trying to understand masculinity, so that I could fake it... So, I was humored when he says to me "Y'know. Becoming a woman is the most masculine thing you've ever done. It takes balls to cut off your balls."

I wanna get that last part on a T shirt.

[peky]

Dear Kerala,

Several things we need to keep in mind when discussing this topic:
a) first we have to separate the gender roles, which are mostly a cultural construction or attribute from those behaviors who derived by gender physiology (nature), e.g. those effects caused directly the estrogen and testosterone;
b) second we have to consider the anatomical determinants of maleness and femaleness that are so central to our GID =e.g. breast, vagina, facial hair),
c) third, our congruence between body and brain is an innate biologically driven phenomena not subject to manipulation as far at the brain is concerned;
d) fourth, we must keep in mind that there is no such a thing as a perfect female or male brain, every human is a mixture of female and male attributes, it does not matter whether this attributes are hard-wired (nature) or acquired (natured) attributes, and
d) finally, that we (our brain) are not static, we change and evolve....

Peky

Dear Kerala.

What I wrote above are not my opinions or beliefs but rather a succinct statement from what we (the scientists) know at this point.

of course you can always chose to believe what ever you want, even the mussing of lawyers and wannabe politicians

[kerala]

Wow, everyone, thank you so much for responding so fully.  Let me try and respond:

Values associated with femininity:
* Cooperation
* Nurture
* Connection
* Caring
* Understanding
* Sensitivity
* Support
* Beauty
* Flavor
* Fragrance
* Flexibility
* Decoration

Values associated with masculinity:
* Strength
* Power
* Protection
* Construction
* Durability
* Steadfastness
* Stoicism
* Confidence
* Self control
* Productivity
* Usefulness

That a great list of positive qualities that anyone would be proud to have at their disposal.  As you do, I can't help but see them as being ascribed "in general" to women and men separately but I think that is just cultural stereotypes coming out.  They could quite easily describe either a man OR woman, so I feel I have duped myself.  Aaagh, these things are very hard to de-program.

a) first we have to separate the gender roles, which are mostly a cultural construction or attribute from those behaviors who derived by gender physiology (nature), e.g. those effects caused directly the estrogen and testosterone;
b) second we have to consider the anatomical determinants of maleness and femaleness that are so central to our GID =e.g. breast, vagina, facial hair),
c) third, our congruence between body and brain is an innate biologically driven phenomena not subject to manipulation as far at the brain is concerned;
d) fourth, we must keep in mind that there is no such a thing as a perfect female or male brain, every human is a mixture of female and male attributes, it does not matter whether this attributes are hard-wired (nature) or acquired (natured) attributes, and
d) finally, that we (our brain) are not static, we change and evolve....
Peky

I can separate cultural roles and biology, but firmly believe that everything affects everything else.  Environment affects my behaviour, which affects my hormones, which affects my sense of self, which affects my sense of the world around me and in turns affects behaviour and creates the culture, environment, role models and expectations for everyone else. 

Your point "d" is a great one, I do agree that all of these factors are all changing in real time.  Nothing is static, everything is always in flux, from brain chemistry to culture and the impact of history itself.  It's a true whirlwind.

...if I were to say I want to get rid of my "femaleness," I would mean I want to get rid of the parts of the mask that are left. I copied behaviours from girls when I was younger and some of them are now habit even though they make me uncomfortable. Not necessarily because they're considered "feminine," but because they are not me and were a part of a fake persona I had during a painful time of my life.

This is a good point.  I can think of lots of behaviours that I have "picked up" at various times because it was expeditious to do so at that time and in that situation. As you say, it can be curiously difficult to let them go again.  This is something I am dealing with a lot right now.

As for always feeling like a man in a woman's body, not everyone feels that way, but I do. It is very physical for me. My body looks and feels wrong and I feel totally disconnected from it at best and disturbed by it at worse. It has nothing to do with society. If I was completely alone on a desert island, I would still be upset by how typically female my body is. (By which, of course, I mean boobs, skin texture, facial structure, hips and curves, etc.)

I hear you.  I try not to notice what my body is doing too much as it can be frankly just too depressing.  I have one tiny mirror in the house and that's it. 

Actually, there is plenty of evidence that there are structural differences between male and female brains. By plenty of evidence, I mean you could dissect a brain and see it.

That's because our gender identities are based on the structures of our brains (according to studies done so far) and not on societal roles. At least mine is. Some people say differently, but I honestly can't understand them. (I don't say this to be mean. I just mean it's too far from my own experiences for me to understand. Does that make sense?)

I will keep researching this issue.  Sometimes it's difficult to know which comes first, "feedback from the world" causing differences in brain structure or brain chemistry altering our behaviour and outlook on the world.  It's probably both. At the same time.

Skirts are so comfy, they're like wearing nothing at all. One of the good things about being a metalhead is that men in skirts are not uncommon.

And there's so much variety. I had a great zebra skin mini once that was simply to die for.  One of the downsides to living in London compared to, say, India is that men in skirts in public can be a problem for people.  Unless you have fantastic legs in which case everything seems to be forgiven.  I think that is generally the case in almost any situation though, so perhaps I should just work on my legs more.

Personally, I've noticed that jumping all over the "feminine and masculine spectrum" (which I don't believe in) like a ping pong ball tends to confuse people.

Yes, I guess I am presenting a more stable outlook to the world while working on some more subtle inner changes.

I define my destination as finally looking like myself or, at least, getting as close as I possibly can. I guess if I were to see myself as coming from somewhere, it would be from a very dark place behind a mask that I lost myself behind and I never want to go back. I am currently at a place where I am true to myself, but don't look like myself yet.

That is really nicely put.  I hadn't experienced such need to "look like myself".  I guess the body I carry round does most of what I ask of it, what it actually looks like hadn't been of such importance (until you mentioned it, of course).

I often have trans* people (and cis-people too, for that matter) tell me that I send off such a "strong signal," or give off a "vibe," or "come across as" a woman much more clearly, strongly, and unambiguously than most trans* people.  So I ask them what they mean by that.  And invariably they can't really give an answer except to repeat the vague statement about a "strong signal," or "vibe," or "coming across as."  I've been trying to figure out what that actually means for a long time . . . But it continues to elude me.  And so far no one has managed to express what it actually is. 

Yes, I know transwomen who have struggled to shake off some of the subtleties of male behaviour.  They may have perfected the voice and the look and the hair, but the content of what they talk about was still uncannily male, for example discussing the specifications of recording equipment or listing engine performance statistics.  I don't know any women who have ever talked to me about that kind of thing. 

And drinking pints.  Lots of girls do drink pints though, so maybe it was just the WAY they were drinking them that served as unconscious cues to a more "manly" way of doing things.  These new micro-behaviours take a lifetime of observation to re-learn.  And eating a massive plate of food, well it's just so un-lady-like! 

From the above you might conclude that I am firmly in the nurture/socialised camp but I am not.  I have moved from a life beset by intense gender dysphoria and sense of dislocation  to one where I feel empowered, centred and at peace courtesy of HRT.  From an absolute obsession with cross dressing and transitioning to one where I am closer to a mid point, a balancing point, an emotional equilibrium courtesy of HRT leads me to conclude that the brain is gendered that it needs the appropriate hormones for peace of mind and the possibility of an authentic, self authored life.  With that possibility I have the opportunity to select the role and presentation that works best for me rather than be forced to accept a role defined and selected by others.

Thank you for sharing that, I am not sure where I am at yet with HRT, is that a route I feel would provide me some balance? I baulk at taking headache tablets or even caffeine.  Taking HRT would change that outlook for sure!  Your insight is invaluable and very much appreciated.

"Becoming a woman is the most masculine thing you've ever done. It takes balls to cut off your balls."
I wanna get that last part on a T shirt.

Me too.

c) third, our congruence between body and brain is an innate biologically driven phenomena not subject to manipulation as far at the brain is concerned

Having re-read your point "c" again, I am not sure I understand it fully.  Are you saying that the Brain-Body connection is not open to outside influence?  Or that, together, the Brain and Body create an immutable "whole" that needs (demands?) a sense of integration to feel OK?

[Edge]

I will keep researching this issue.  Sometimes it's difficult to know which comes first, "feedback from the world" causing differences in brain structure or brain chemistry altering our behaviour and outlook on the world.  It's probably both. At the same time.

From what I've read as well as what my bio psych professor taught me, our brain structure starts developing in the womb. However, my bio psych professor also made it clear that there isn't as much of a difference when it comes to "masculine" and "feminine" traits as people think.

Yes, I guess I am presenting a more stable outlook to the world while working on some more subtle inner changes.

Eh... It's actually quite subtle up until the point where people try to start labelling me as either/or. Then they get confused.

[ThePhoenix]

Yes, I know transwomen who have struggled to shake off some of the subtleties of male behaviour.  They may have perfected the voice and the look and the hair, but the content of what they talk about was still uncannily male, for example discussing the specifications of recording equipment or listing engine performance statistics.  I don't know any women who have ever talked to me about that kind of thing. 

And drinking pints.  Lots of girls do drink pints though, so maybe it was just the WAY they were drinking them that served as unconscious cues to a more "manly" way of doing things.  These new micro-behaviours take a lifetime of observation to re-learn.  And eating a massive plate of food, well it's just so un-lady-like! 

This is a pretty good example of what I'm talking about.  What exactly is male content?  A ciswoman can sit down and talk about engine specs or recording equipment.  But while she's doing it, will people say she's acting like a guy, coming across as a guy, or seems like a man?  Probably not.  And, at least in the case of recording equipment, I'm not sure it would really be all that unusual for a woman vs. a man.  Women regularly eat big plates with lots of food.  That's by no means a guy thing. 

Whatever the difference in "vibes," "signals," and ways people "come across" is a whole lot more subtle than people talking about the wrong topic or eating too much food.  And, I think, it's both more fundamental and--frankly--more real than the stereotypes we are talking about.

There are differences in the social signals that men and women send off.  But many of the real ones are so subtle that they are hard to even talk about or even grasp.

Here's a very coarse, crude and unsubtle example of a signal like what I am getting at:
Men don't usually talk with their hands all that much.  Ciswomen do.  So do some ethnicities.  Go to Italy, for example, and you will see both men and women gesturing quite dramatically with their hands.  But yet if you talk to a hypothetical average ciswoman in the United States and a male recent Italian immigrant in the United States, the way that each of them talks with their hands will be different.  They both talk with their hands, but they both do it differently.  And of course this is highly variable based on culture, ethnicity, individual personality, how tired the person is, the persons mood at the particular time, and so on.  But yet--as I was recently reminded by a transguy acquaintance who recently put this in my mind--a transman can grow a beard, have his voice drop, pass perfectly as a man, and yet have people read femininity in him by the way he talks with his hands.  And typically that mixed signal (obviously male person talking with his hands in a blatantly feminine way) will be read as a sign that he is gay. 

So, what is the difference in how men and women talk with their hands that sends such a clear, perceptible, and easily understood signal of masculinity or femininity despite a thousand different variables that affect it?  And what are the other, even more subtle, subtle signals of masculinity or femininity that men and women send out?  This is what I am trying to get at. 

In the trans* community, we seem to give an awful lot of time to stereotypes like who is allowed to talk about sports or eat a particular meal.  Frankly, I think a lot of that is pretty superficial and of limited validity.  It does have some.  I've been with trans* women at women's up events where I see them just unable to have a conversation with the other women in the room because they have no common interests.  I feel absolutely AWFUL about it because they look miserable, uncomfortable, and I can't figure out any way to help bring them in.

But the type of thing that I'm talking about is the sort of thing that sends a signal that a person is a woman or a man even when they are not being stereotypical.  If Shakespeare is right that all the world's a stage, then what are subtleties of behavior that make the gender signals match up no matter what men or women are doing at the time?  Or to make it a lot more personal, why can I go to a chess club--not a typical feminine interest--be one of the best chess players in the room, talk trash with the guys, and yet there is zero doubt from any of the other players, spectators, or anyone else that I am 100% a woman?

Whatever is going on there is what I'm trying to express.  I don't understand it.  But it's a lot more than stereotyping.  It's something very subtle, but very powerful, that it cannot entirely put my finger on.

[Anatta]

Kia Ora

I'm finding the topic quite interesting, however it would seem that much of the general discussion relating to "trans-women" in this thread is coming from a "heteronormative" perspective...

But I could be wrong....

Just thought you would like to know

Metta Zenda

[ThePhoenix]

Kia Ora

I'm finding the topic quite interesting, however it would seem that much of the general discussion relating to "trans-women" in this thread is coming from a "heteronormative" perspective...

But I could be wrong....

Just thought you would like to know

Metta Zenda

Good point.

[peky]

Kia Ora

I'm finding the topic quite interesting, however it would seem that much of the general discussion relating to "trans-women" in this thread is coming from a "heteronormative" perspective...

But I could be wrong....

Just thought you would like to know

Metta Zenda

Well, Sis,

enlighten us with the "Homonormative" perspective then

Jus askin!

[Anatta]

Well, Sis,

enlighten us with the "Homonormative" perspective then

Jus askin!

Kia Ora Peky,

It would take a "Homonormative" person to do this...

Just saying !

Metta Zenda

[peky]

Kia Ora

I'm finding the topic quite interesting, however it would seem that much of the general discussion relating to "trans-women" in this thread is coming from a "heteronormative" perspective...

But I could be wrong....

Just thought you would like to know

Metta Zenda

let me see if I can get you to elaborate in a different way.

Are you saying that CIS heterosexuals individuals have a different perspective on maleness or femaleness than CIS homosexual individuals? OR

Are you saying that TRANS heterosexuals individuals have a different perspective on maleness or femaleness than TRANS homosexual individuals? OR

Are you saying that heterosexuals individuals have a different perspective on maleness or femaleness than homosexual individuals, regardless of their gender identity?

[Edge]

What does sexual orientation have to do with maleness and femaleness?

[peky]

What does sexual orientation have to do with maleness and femaleness?

I am wondering the same; I guess is up to Annatta she brought it up!

[peky]

What does sexual orientation have to do with maleness and femaleness?

I am also wandering that myself.

Annatta brought it up!

I am curious to see her mindful answer

[kerala]

So, what is the difference in how men and women talk with their hands that sends such a clear, perceptible, and easily understood signal of masculinity or femininity despite a thousand different variables that affect it?  And what are the other, even more subtle, subtle signals of masculinity or femininity that men and women send out?  This is what I am trying to get at. 

I think there are multiple points of references here, from overall posture, taking up of "space", scale of gestures, leaning in or out of the conversation, ways of standing, where do you put your hands when you're not saying anything, amount of eye-contact, amount of "animation" in the conversation, etc etc.  None of these are the sole preserve of either men or women, of course anyone can behave in any way they choose.  However, I would probably assign a gender to someone, albeit maybe unconsciously and even if I was specifically trying not to, simply because it is habitual to do so. 

Evolutionary psychologists would probably say that defining gender as a sign for biological sex is important so I can decide if the person I am speaking with is either:

• A same-sex threat
• A same-sex non-threat
• An other-sex mating opportunity
• An other-sex non-mating opportunity

It may be felt that the above list rather simplifies the issue...

I've been with trans* women at women's up events where I see them just unable to have a conversation with the other women in the room because they have no common interests.  I feel absolutely AWFUL about it because they look miserable, uncomfortable, and I can't figure out any way to help bring them in.

I think that would be hard with any group of people.  Just because I am a trans-woman doesn't mean I will have anything in common with any other trans-woman, apart from our trans-journeys which might be totally different anyway.  I am into Bach keyboard suites, power-lifting and contemporary dance.  How about you?  Finding common conversational ground is a real art form.

...why can I go to a chess club--not a typical feminine interest--be one of the best chess players in the room, talk trash with the guys, and yet there is zero doubt from any of the other players, spectators, or anyone else that I am 100% a woman?

There are a million things that seem to be required for passing and they all have to be nailed sufficiently for there to be no "doubts" at all.

I'm finding the topic quite interesting, however it would seem that much of the general discussion relating to "trans-women" in this thread is coming from a "heteronormative" perspective...

I guess, being a new-ish thread, there are but few data points and the picture is therefore still quite grainy. Feel free to jump in from any viewpoint you wish.

Are you saying that CIS heterosexuals individuals have a different perspective on maleness or femaleness than CIS homosexual individuals? OR
Are you saying that TRANS heterosexuals individuals have a different perspective on maleness or femaleness than TRANS homosexual individuals? OR
Are you saying that heterosexuals individuals have a different perspective on maleness or femaleness than homosexual individuals, regardless of their gender identity?

Nicely untangled!