Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 08:11:47 AM
Interesting point. There is also kind of a trend nowadays to celebrate anything traditionally masculine a girl does as 'girl power'. But I'm not sure that it is. It's more that traditionally feminine activities are seen as somehow less valuable. Our culture is masculine and so most of the things we see as worthwhile are traditionally masculine. Disney has also been trending towards this. I mean, on one hand, it's great that tomboys are finally being recognized. But I'd like to see a strong female heroine who isn't engaging in traditionally masculine activities (while of course being stereotypically hot and 'do'able at the same time), but is powerful through her femininity.
All these movies and games with 'kick-ass', ridiculously f_able heroines don't say 'girl power' or equality to me. It just says that turns men on. If it was about girl power, they wouldn't have to be f_able. They would look like a woman more likely to be capable of these feats - not small and slender with just 'lightly toned' limbs and not so f_able. It's just catering to male fantasy.
Sorry that turned into a bit of a rant. ugh, when will FA get off this feminist kick?
I agree, and I also disagree just a littttle bit
I think the honest problem here is one that feminism isn't built to address, which is the fact that men and women are actually different. The common sense and important part of this is, different--NOT unequal. Feminism can't medicate this. Because what happens when women still have all the respect that men appreciate (or can't) and they are unhappy because it turns out that a lot of them still want to be treated like ->-bleeped-<-?
Notice how I didn't say they deserve to be, i said want to be. That's empowering. It can even be a choice that a responsible adult makes because they are equal enough to have exactly what they want. Some people like being treated like ->-bleeped-<- and objectified, some people like being used... It's not wrong, even if it's awkward for a lot of reasons.
A thing that kind of bugs me about a lot of casual feminist sentiments is how against the spirit of feminism it can go on the topic of men. Men can end up pretty objectified as objectifiers, cold machines, like little terminators who chase women relentlessly no matter how many limbs they lose on the way. That is denying men an equality as well. We focus a lot on what Disney princesses do with their life but not really on the princes. Or is it just me that noticed Disney is just as bad, if not worse at writing princes? Not sure if I ever heard anyone say that but come on. All they ever really do is get the girl. What if they had like, feelings, or in some cases, lines? What if they wanted to throw it up and pluck those bold brows for a change? (I don't think we can argue that they aren't conventionally f__kable except when the whole point of their character is that they aren't...) And I mean at least the princesses get their own hair color. So we have equally bad gender role writing but people only ever talk about how it's bad for women. hmm.
And then a weird thing about feminism in that in spite of itself, women actually need feminism to begin with. Ever heard of masculinism? Me neither, I mean maybe it exists but. And I am not going MRA on you here, but i'm trying to point out that men don't have an equivalent to feminism because they don't need it, or at least not enough people believe they do. No, a man speaks for himself, he doesn't need an advocate. Is it really because people will listen to him and not to a woman, or is it also partially because we can tust him to assert his beliefs enough to have them heard? Oh, but women are raised not to assert themselves. Yeah, it can keep going around in circles like that, but eventually we have to ask where this divide came from in the first place and why, and why it naturally resists any amount of effort to change it.
So yeah, feminism is bizarre in a way because in advocating for women it is limiting and controlling what women are.. people who need avocady. People who are not strong enough on an individual level to overcome objectification. People who need someone to depend on to help with their practical affairs. Incidentally, this is what women do, they form groups to figure out issues rather than fight it alone. Because they don't like to fight alone, whereas most men get off on that kind of thing. Being the lone gunman against the world... trust me, disney movies aren't made for adult men's fantasies at all, and probably if disney princesses were ugly and boorish but had strong personalities, women wouldn't be as interested in them.
..And I know, feminism is completely reasonable in light of the issues that women face uniquely. But we don't extend that favor to men. We tell (explicitly or just through neglecting/refusing to give attention their problems) men to figure it out in their own, and maybe at the end of the day that's actually just because we trust and expect them to. :/ And who knows, maybe they wouldn't take advocacy even if you offered it to them, because they're too stubborn to agree on anything.
Y'know, I really believe that most stereotypes carry a little bit of truth somewhere, if sloppily. I'm not necessarily arguing against the reality of the view of men I pointed out above, because anyone who has ever had a mildly feminine appearance probably realizes that a lot of men actually are like little terminators. They can be freaking relentless (and scary) over something as bland as a quick, emotionless hookup, I mean seriously. No matter where or when you live, that is an overwhelmingly male behavior. Even if you were a different species it would be.
Women are doing a lot better now than they used to be in terms of power and respect. But has anything really changed so much? Do women feel more empowered and do they want to? The more we internalize feminism, the more embarrassing it is to be a waif, and old fantasies of going out in the big, scary world and catching a man are being replaced by fantasies of being controlled, subverted and dominated for their own good, bleeding out of society's pores through erotica, I mean Twilight, or like, post secret. A lot of people, at the end of the day, and I am probably including myself in this... have these problems because they don't know who they are without them.
BTW, I don't actually like the part of me that wants to share how I really feel about this issue, who wants to express the perspective of a probably feminine person who was chronically not allowed to be feminine or at least not liked for it, because I know someone will think, "but you're MAAB, you don't know what you're talking about," and I'd go all stockholm syndrome on them and agree. I prefer to agree even when i don't actually agree. I don't like the part of me that is conscious of all this stuff. Most of the time I don't talk about this because in the long run it's more satisfying to agree with the consensus of people who ultimately have just as truly never experienced a male upbringing either. I feel sort of rogue and unfeminine about all of this. Funny how that works. I mean maybe I am unfeminine though. I really never know anymore but figures that I can't stop caring anyway :/
I do think my saving grace is that the bottom line is that men and women are stereotypically different, but only the average person can accurately reflect that so you can't apply stereotypes to individuals, ever. You have to let them be who they are and they need to have access to whatever that means about them. It's hard to help that mainstream media caters to mainstream people and their concerns, but mainstream media wouldn't be mainstream if it didn't. It's just a fact of life. Everything is probably going to work itself out in the long run as we are more comfotable with the full range of gender and even the idea that maybe it is often hncomfortably binary and that that can be okay, that differences don't mean inequality. That's how I feel.
Uh sorry for going way off on a tangent though, I feel kind of ridiculous about it and it's mostly not related to the post I quoted anyway. :S
