being trans is the worst thing ever *major tw*

[FalseHybridPrincess]

^To be fair, those who are born female generally don't face as much pressure from birth to fit into feminine stereotypes as males do to fit into masculine stereotypes. Being a tomboy is a generally well-accepted cultural label to be. Where there really isn't a male equivalent. And it's also telling that when a woman wears male clothes, nobody really thinks much of it, maybe just assuming that she's a butch lesbian or something. But if a man wears women's clothes he can be diagnosed with transvestic fetishism, and is called a freak.

So basically, I feel like us MtFs are under a bit more cultural pressure to fit in, and therefore are a bit more scared to be our authentic selves because we're so used to being teased and ostracized for it. And I will admit that I admire this about FtMs too. They seem to be much more aware that the clothes they wear and the way they act don't define their gender identity, where so many of my MtF trans friends are constantly bothering me about needing to wear makeup, needing to wear a skirt, needing to do this and that "because I'm a woman."

I agree completely.

[sad panda]

If what you are saying is true, then I've been conned by the TG community, especially MTF's.  I've actually admired FTM's in their honesty, the genetic female trans people (including bigender / genderqueer) have more striked me as representing the transgender spectrum than the genetic male side.  I think a lot of genetic male TS's are just more worried about not being accepted and thus not represent things accurately, at the expense of people like me, who are significantly more honest than average.  And I know that among people raised as female, there is just more honesty in general when it comes to intimate issues.

So here I am for more than 6 years questioning my own gender despite wanting to have breasts, a vagina, desiring to have sex only as a woman, and desiring to have a female looking body and that i happen to have a natural feminine personality (including feminine mannerisms), and being stuck in the mud due to the lack of honesty among MTF's.

I'm sorry, i don't exactly understand. Why does MTFs' honesty or dishonesty make you stuck??

^To be fair, those who are born female generally don't face as much pressure from birth to fit into feminine stereotypes as males do to fit into masculine stereotypes, because our culture as a whole values masculinity more than femininity. Being a tomboy is a generally well-accepted cultural label to be. Where there really isn't a male equivalent. Society can understand why girls would like sports, strength, toughness, and other "masculine" things, because it views them as the "default." Where it can't understand why boys would like makeup, dresses, emotions, and other such "feminine" things, because it views them as lesser. It's very telling that when a woman wears male clothes, nobody really thinks much of it, maybe just assuming that she's a tomboy or a butch lesbian or something. But if a man wears women's clothes he can be diagnosed with transvestic fetishism, and is called a freak.

So basically, I feel like us MtFs are under a bit more cultural pressure to fit in, and therefore are a bit more scared to be our authentic selves because we're so used to having our authentic femininity belittled, teased, laughed at, and beaten out of us by a society that's constantly telling us to "man up." And I will admit that I admire this about FtMs too. They seem to be much more aware that the clothes they wear and the way they act don't define their gender identity, where so many of my MtF trans friends are constantly bothering me about needing to wear makeup, needing to wear a skirt, needing to do this and that "because I'm a woman."

I'm starting to wonder if this is actually true or not.

When I think back, there was certainly almost no pressure to be masculine, (I believe it is culturally almost perfectly acceptable to be unmasculine) and then i might have just imagined the pressure to not be feminine.

I mean, I didn't get to socialize much as a boy, but I would go to college classes with 20 or so boys in them in gender-neutrally styled (but obviously female cut/sized) women's clothes, with blown out shoulder length hair and oversized sunglasses. I was always the smallest boy and always thought to be the youngest. I was shy and gentle and a little serious, a little flirty. Nobody ever treated me the least bit poorly or made a single bad comment. Actually, the guy who sat next to me was always so excited about my body... lol. He was like 6'3 and 300 lbs and always commented (in a playful way) about my hair and my size. He even picked me up once.

I don't know, just an experience i had, in retrospect i wish I would have pushed the envelope more fashion-wise... more accessories, girlier bags and more feminine clothes. There was this fear that stopped me from going beyond andro femme but it wasn't cuz i had been given reasons to be afraid. It was just cuz of this cultural brainwashing that femininity is lesser. People didn't actually treat me that way when. i expressed femininity though. And if they tried to,get me to be more masculine, they gave up and moved on pretty quick when they realized it wasn't me and didn't suit me.

I also think part of this stuff is just a question of taste. Let's be honest, women's clothes don't always suit the male figure. It can look humorous because it's such a clash of expectations. But I think if it was always done tastefully most people wouldn't be shocked enough to care. But looking like a quarterback in drag is going to turn heads. It would turn heads if a cis girl looked that way too.

Idk, but again, I am not trying to say that pressure doesn't exist, I just personally never experienced more than a benign form of it, but yeah I only had a little socialization as a boy so.

[ThePhoenix]

^To be fair, those who are born female generally don't face as much pressure from birth to fit into feminine stereotypes as males do to fit into masculine stereotypes, because our culture as a whole values masculinity more than femininity. Being a tomboy is a generally well-accepted cultural label to be. Where there really isn't a male equivalent. Society can understand why girls would like sports, strength, toughness, and other "masculine" things, because it views them as the "default." Where it can't understand why boys would like makeup, dresses, emotions, and other such "feminine" things, because it views them as lesser. It's very telling that when a woman wears male clothes, nobody really thinks much of it, maybe just assuming that she's a tomboy or a butch lesbian or something. But if a man wears women's clothes he can be diagnosed with transvestic fetishism, and is called a freak.

So basically, I feel like us MtFs are under a bit more cultural pressure to fit in, and therefore are a bit more scared to be our authentic selves because we're so used to having our authentic femininity belittled, teased, laughed at, and beaten out of us by a society that's constantly telling us to "man up." And I will admit that I admire this about FtMs too. They seem to be much more aware that the clothes they wear and the way they act don't define their gender identity, where so many of my MtF trans friends are constantly bothering me about needing to wear makeup, needing to wear a skirt, needing to do this and that "because I'm a woman."

I feel like I should say something in response, but I honestly do not understand what you are saying so I can't.  What about what I said makes it feel like you've been duped?

^To be fair, those who are born female generally don't face as much pressure from birth to fit into feminine stereotypes as males do to fit into masculine stereotypes, because our culture as a whole values masculinity more than femininity. Being a tomboy is a generally well-accepted cultural label to be. Where there really isn't a male equivalent. Society can understand why girls would like sports, strength, toughness, and other "masculine" things, because it views them as the "default." Where it can't understand why boys would like makeup, dresses, emotions, and other such "feminine" things, because it views them as lesser. It's very telling that when a woman wears male clothes, nobody really thinks much of it, maybe just assuming that she's a tomboy or a butch lesbian or something. But if a man wears women's clothes he can be diagnosed with transvestic fetishism, and is called a freak.

So basically, I feel like us MtFs are under a bit more cultural pressure to fit in, and therefore are a bit more scared to be our authentic selves because we're so used to having our authentic femininity belittled, teased, laughed at, and beaten out of us by a society that's constantly telling us to "man up." And I will admit that I admire this about FtMs too. They seem to be much more aware that the clothes they wear and the way they act don't define their gender identity, where so many of my MtF trans friends are constantly bothering me about needing to wear makeup, needing to wear a skirt, needing to do this and that "because I'm a woman."

I never thought of the difference between mtf and ftm in quite this way, but now that you mention it, I can kind of see what you mean.  A lot of the modern genderqueer people emerging on the scene are also FAAB.  In fact, from what I have read and seen, the overwhelming majority of genderqueer people are FAAB.  I've always seen that as an expression of the greater freedom that society gives to people who are FAAB.  But I never connected it with the differences between mtf and ftm individuals.  For what it's worth, I have a somewhat controversial theory that genderqueer is a more accurate description of most trans* identities.  I believe that more people do not state that they identify as genderqueer or otherwise non-binary because it just isn't as accepted and they do not understand the concept or feel the freedom to say so.  I believe this because, although I cannot know what is happening inside of people, I can see their actions via gender expression.  When we talk about that extremely masculine expressing transwoman, for example, that is not a binary female expression.  It's more of a mix.  And that's true even though the person may insist quite adamantly that they identify as 100% female no matter how much the gender expression fails to match the stated identity. 

What I don't understand about your post is that there is often mtf pressure put on people who DO conform precisely because of their conformity.  Like in my case, I am often assumed to be mtf and then criticized because I am "too much like a woman," "trans cis," "too gender conforming," or told "your super femme gender presentation might alienate some people."  These are all quotes.  So this suggests that at least some mtf individuals recognize gender conforming behavior and then punish it.  How does that fit in with the idea of mtf individuals being under pressure to conform and trying hard to do so?

I don't know, just an experience i had, in retrospect i wish I would have pushed the envelope more fashion-wise... more accessories, girlier bags and more feminine clothes. There was this fear that stopped me from going beyond andro femme but it wasn't cuz i had been given reasons to be afraid. It was just cuz of this cultural brainwashing that femininity is lesser. People didn't actually treat me that way when. i expressed femininity though. And if they tried to,get me to be more masculine, they gave up and moved on pretty quick when they realized it wasn't me and didn't suit me.

I also think part of this stuff is just a question of taste. Let's be honest, women's clothes don't always suit the male figure. It can look humorous because it's such a clash of expectations. But I think if it was always done tastefully most people wouldn't be shocked enough to care. But looking like a quarterback in drag is going to turn heads.

Doesn't this prove (or at least support) the point Carrie Liz was making?  Men's clothes don't always suit the female figure either.  In fact, a woman walking around in a men's shirt may be wearing garments that are comically large on her.  But it's still acceptable.  In fact, boyfriend styles are produced for women specifically to imitate men's clothing.

But the man wearing women's clothing does turn heads, is ridiculed, and often may be subject to violence.  There is no such thing as a style of clothing for men that imitates women's clothing.  At least so far as I know. 

It would turn heads if a cis girl looked that way too.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.  Did I mention that I never mastered passing as a guy? 

I have been harassed and come close to ending up in the hospital because of being seen as a woman walking down the street in a men's suit and tie.  And other people I know have had guns pointed at them and other such things for the same reason.  I am very aware that the life of a person seen as a non-conforming female is not easy. 

But the amazing thing is how seldom I and others had trouble.  The overwhelming majority of the time, I would have people do things like rush in front to open the door for me, say things in the elevator like "I think we need to let her out" and other such things.  It just wasn't remarked on.  It wasn't a big deal.  If I had been a man in drag rather than the other way around, I am not at all sure I'd have even been allowed into the building.  And I certainly don't believe I'd have received the courtesy that was shown.

Typically, people would very obviously read me as female and still be courteous and gentlemanly.  Or they'd stumble around because if how I was dressed and decide that I must be a guy because I'm somewhat tallish for a woman (I'm 5'9") and was wearing a suit and a tie.  But violence, harassment, etc. didn't seem to happen all that much.  I really didn't have all that many problems.  I doubt that it would have been like that for a crossdressing man.

By the way, sad panda, reading your posts here and elsewhere makes me wonder about something.  Please feel free to not answer if this is too intrusive.  But have you ever considered the possibility that you might have some sort of intersex issue going on?  The story you tell about your life and how you came to transition sounds very familiar in that respect . . . .

Edit:  I fixed a typo

[sad panda]

I feel like I should say something in response, but I honestly do not understand what you are saying so I can't.  What about what I said makes it feel like you've been duped?

I never thought of the difference between mtf and ftm in quite this way, but now that you mention it, I can kind of see what you mean.  A lot of the modern genderqueer people emerging on the scene are also FAAB.  In fact, from what I have read and seen, the overwhelming majority of genderqueer people are FAAB.  I've always seen that as an expression of the greater freedom that society gives to people who are FAAB.  But I never connected it with the differences between mtf and ftm individuals.  For what it's worth, I have a somewhat controversial theory that genderqueer is a more accurate description of most trans* identities.  I believe that more people do not state that they identify as genderqueer or otherwise non-binary because it just isn't as accepted and they do not understand the concept or feel the freedom to say so.  I believe this because, although I cannot know what is happening inside of people, I can see their actions via gender expression.  When we talk about that extremely masculine expressing transwoman, for example, that is not a binary female expression.  It's more of a mix.  And that's true even though the person may insist quite adamantly that they identify as 100% female no matter how much the gender expression fails to match the stated identity. 

What I don't understand about your post is that there is often mtf pressure put on people who DO conform precisely because of their conformity.  Like in my case, I am often assumed to be mtf and then criticized because I am "too much like a woman," "trans cis," "too gender conforming," or told "your super femme gender presentation might alienate some people."  These are all quotes.  So this suggests that at least some mtf individuals recognize gender conforming behavior and then punish it.  How does that fit in with the idea of mtf individuals being under pressure to conform and trying hard to do so?

Doesn't this prove (or at least support) the point Carrie Liz was making?  Men's clothes don't always suit the female figure either.  In fact, a woman walking around in a men's shirt may be wearing garments that are comically large on her.  But it's still acceptable.  In fact, boyfriend styles are produced for women specifically to imitate men's clothing.

But the man wearing women's clothing does turn heads, is ridiculed, and often may be subject to violence.  There is no such thing as a style of clothing for men that imitates women's clothing.  At least so far as I know. 

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.  Did I mention that I never mastered passing as a guy? 

I have been harassed and come close to ending up in the hospital because of being seen as a woman walking down the street in a men's suit and tie.  And other people I know have had guns pointed at them and other such things for the same reason.  I am very aware that the life of a person seen as a non-conforming female is not easy. 

But the amazing thing is how seldom I and others had trouble.  The overwhelming majority of the time, I would have people do things like rush in front to open the door for me, say things in the elevator like "I think we need to let her out" and other such things.  It just wasn't remarked on.  It wasn't a big deal.  If I had been a man in drag rather than the other way around, I am not at all sure I'd have even been allowed into the building.  And I certainly don't believe I'd have received the courtesy that was shown.

Typically, people would very obviously read me as female and still be courteous and gentlemanly.  Or they'd stumble around because if how I was dressed and decide that I must be a guy because I'm somewhat tallish for a woman (I'm 5'9") and was wearing a suit and a tie.  But violence, harassment, etc. didn't seem to happen all that much.  I really didn't have all that many problems.  I doubt that it would have been like that for a crossdressing man.

By the way, sad panda, reading your posts here and elsewhere makes me wonder about something.  Please feel free to not answer if this is too intrusive.  But have you ever considered the possibility that you might have some sort of intersex issue going on?  The story you tell about your life and how you came to transition sounds very familiar in that respect . . . .

Edit:  I fixed a typo

Well, yeah, I know it's a huge double standard. I can't disagree with that at all... hrmm, honestly I would be interested to hear what the femme ftm guys around here who pass as male have to say about it. I think it varies a lot by location as well. Ugh, nobody deserves to be threatened over this trivial stuff though. That makes me so ashamed for people as a whole :/

I can see how baggy clothes could also be comical to people, though I think we are more used to seeing that. Like, oversized is even a fashion. Baggy clothes at least can drape to the figure. But too small always looks bad. I don't think it's just about gender, for some weird reason people find that juxtaposition funny. Like a clown on a tiny bicycle or a big man with a little dog. Plus, male-style clothes come as small as you want because there's always the boy's section, and in my experience even an adult extra small isn't too baggy aside from in the waist, but women's clothes are really just not made to suit definitely male-sized/shaped bodies I think. The size range is much narrower.

I'm sure the way male crossdressers are received is caused by a mix of all this stuff though... but it was just like. At least in my own experience, I never had anyone freak out or even say anything. Probably because it didn't look unusual enough. Not that I was wearing skirts or dresses or anything though. They might not have realized i was wearing women's clothes at all but I thought the cuts got pretty blatant. I mean one of my jackets had princess seams and a drawstring around the hips. I think i could compromise for a sort of preppy businessy 20 something wardrobe if i were a boy again. Sort of ann taylor-ish. Don't know how it would go over but I guess most likely i just wouldn't pass as a boy. i just can't do men's clothes, I got so tired of trying to fit them when I don't even like the styles available.

Hmm well about my body though, I have had that suggested a lot of times but ultimately I just don't know. there is zero doubt that I didn't develop normally cuz all the males in my family are 5 or 6" taller and much larger than me but I don't actually know why. I identify a lot with what some other IS people have told me about their lives but yeah. But on paper I'm trans right now either way which i guess is why I am struggling.

Anyway... I just really want to see all these double standards and oppressive thinking change... it makes me so sad and unsure of what to do with myself I never know what fears are reasonable and what is just the spotlight effect so right now I just feel stuck as a girl. I was thinking if I could make it to your support group, that would be a first place to try a boy presentation!

[ThePhoenix]

Hmm well about my body though, I have had that suggested a lot of times but ultimately I just don't know. there is zero doubt that I didn't develop normally cuz all the males in my family are 5 or 6" taller and much larger than me but I don't actually know why. I identify a lot with what some other IS people have told me about their lives but yeah. But on paper I'm trans right now either way which i guess is why I am struggling.

Some intersex people are also trans* identified.  Some are not.  Some identify as strictly male or female.  Some don't.  And intersex is a pretty broad category that includes more than just ambiguous genitals.  Not everyone realizes that.  But like I said, your story rings familiar in that way. 

Anyway... I just really want to see all these double standards and oppressive thinking change... it makes me so sad and unsure of what to do with myself I never know what fears are reasonable and what is just the spotlight effect so right now I just feel stuck as a girl. I was thinking if I could make it to your support group, that would be a first place to try a boy presentation!

I feel kind of a bit similar.  A part of me would like to try a male presentation from a place of curiosity.  But another part of me is too scared to do it now.  And another part of me is pretty content with having finally landed in a place that feels comfy and therefore is too disinterested and lazy to bother.  The scared and lazy tend to outweigh the curious.

But yes, by all means come.  We're all about including the * in trans*.  If transportation is a problem, let me know where you're coming from via PM and I can see if I can arrange some help.  The ability to do that is kind of spotty, but sometimes we can either arrange a ride with someone or help figure out the transit links.  And there is space to change if traveling in one presentation or another is uncomfortable or unsafe.