On the born female perspective

[sad panda]

But your opinion belongs here and mine does not because you are FAAB. I wouldn't care if it wasn't like yours is the real one. But the need for the distinction makes it feel that way. I dont even really own how I feel about myself cause feminism knows what's up with people like me. Sorry if I'm just being difficult :/


I'm not sure what you mean hon. You don't think I really believe women are less, do you? I don't. I just know this is what society believes. However you dress it down - CEOs, lawyers, presidents even - they all want what you're sitting on. It makes the world go round. Other people will tell you different, they'll spout a lot of affirmative BS. But in the end, you're a woman.
Don't kill the messenger honey.

OK lol I give up. I had an opinion but I lost it. This always happens... why do I even post. Seriously. But no I didn't think you thought that... I just don't wanna believe that's all I am to people but it is probably true cuz I have no personality anyway.

[Edge]

OK lol I give up. I had an opinion but I lost it. This always happens... why do I even post. Seriously. But no I didn't think you thought that... I just don't wanna believe that's all Ia to people but it is probably true cuz I have no personality anyway.

I have a personality too and that didn't stop what happened with me.

[Nero]

But your opinion belongs here and mine does not because you are FAAB. I wouldn't care if it wasn't like yours is the real one. But the need for the distinction makes it feel that way. I dont even really own how I feel about myself cause feminism knows what's up with people like me. Sorry if I'm just being difficult :/


I'm not sure what you mean hon. You don't think I really believe women are less, do you? I don't. I just know this is what society believes. However you dress it down - CEOs, lawyers, presidents even - they all want what you're sitting on. It makes the world go round. Other people will tell you different, they'll spout a lot of affirmative BS. But in the end, you're a woman.
Don't kill the messenger honey.

OK lol I give up. I had an opinion but I lost it. This always happens... why do I even post. Seriously. But no I didn't think you thought that... I just don't wanna believe that's all I am to people but it is probably true cuz I have no personality anyway.

Aww hon. I really, really didn't mean to hurt you. I'm speaking in blunt terms and sadly as a girl, it probably is how the world sees you. But people who love you and care about you don't see you that way. But yeah, to be a girl is basically to be a sex object. And yeah, it's awful. That's the whole point. It doesn't mean people don't live fulfilling lives as women, because they do. And you are too. But the whole 'woman as body' thing is very damaging to women. That's all. I mean imagine growing up with that message - that you are a body, a sex object - and only worth how good you are in that role - how thin you are, how big your tits are, your ass, etc.

[sad panda]

I have a personality too and that didn't stop what happened with me.

Sorry I didn't get you 100% D:

You mean that didn't stop you getting that treatment and being viewed that way with people? Yeah I guess it would not. I'm always surprised that people don't even seen to realize or care that I have like no personality of my own, I just latch onto whoever they are....

OK lol I give up. I had an opinion but I lost it. This always happens... why do I even post. Seriously. But no I didn't think you thought that... I just don't wanna believe that's all I am to people but it is probably true cuz I have no personality anyway.


Aww hon. I really, really didn't mean to hurt you. I'm speaking in blunt terms and sadly as a girl, it probably is how the world sees you. But people who love you and care about you don't see you that way. But yeah, to be a girl is basically to be a sex object. And yeah, it's awful. That's the whole point. It doesn't mean people don't live fulfilling lives as women, because they do. And you are too. But the whole 'woman as body' thing is very damaging to women. That's all. I mean imagine growing up with that message - that you are a body, a sex object - and only worth how good you are in that role - how thin you are, how big your tits are, your ass, etc.

Well thanks. I'm not gonna say I did grow up that way and start it all over again but being abused makes you feel that way and see that in everybody. So.. idk. It's not like I just can't imagine something like that though.

[Shantel]

Aww hon. I really, really didn't mean to hurt you. I'm speaking in blunt terms and sadly as a girl, it probably is how the world sees you. But people who love you and care about you don't see you that way. But yeah, to be a girl is basically to be a sex object. And yeah, it's awful. That's the whole point. It doesn't mean people don't live fulfilling lives as women, because they do. And you are too. But the whole 'woman as body' thing is very damaging to women. That's all. I mean imagine growing up with that message - that you are a body, a sex object - and only worth how good you are in that role - how thin you are, how big your tits are, your ass, etc.

That's always been the way it is and unfortunately so many women have caved into that male visualization game and get big breast implants in order to be seen as attractive by men. It's sadly pathetic that anyone would want to be known as the sum total of their body parts! Then there are trans women who wind up with oversized breast implants because they naturally retain that visualized image of what in their minds would make them look more female. But oh well, huh? Back in the day I was looking after three lactating Viet Cong mothers who were going to be transported to Saigon, I had to chase away several groups of morons that felt they had the right to peek and ogle, it filled me with disgust.

[Nero]

I am a bit confused by this thread to be honest.

FA, as well as any AFAB people certainly had a different experience growing up, and while I would dispute an absolute generalization on any childhood being the same as one another, or having the same hangups; it would be foolish to think that a large swath of the AFABs didn't have commonalities at least in western culture. This undoubtedly has effects on young people who internalize messages delivered to them, and those that seem to escape this sort of programming I will concede do seem like a tiny minority and are exceptions to the rule, and their existence doesn't diminish the struggles of the average AFAB cis or trans.

The confusing part comes in to, why at the start of the thread was there so much talk of Transwomen not understanding femininity, with implications that many were clothes obsessed posers? That was the part that invited a rather defensive response from transwomen, and to be fair that particular part wasn't said by the OP at all....

Though, I am confused exactly what the OP was getting at by saying the part about the "whale" of a woman not being able to wear what she wants, since this social pushback would be similar to all women AFAB or not. Society views a woman's worth by her looks, we all know that and it really doesn't seem like it makes a difference if she was AFAB, which made me a bit confused exactly how it relates to the AFAB experience the OP was talking about. I may well have just misunderstood the point being made (though, to be fair to overweight readers, 'Whale' is probably not the best word choice here).

Regardless, if you look at the remarks made in the start of the thread by thephoenix, and then commented on by others, I think it becomes clear where the thread went off track, because I think the goal was to discuss the negative effects of female programming on men; which has nothing to do with being critical of women liking dresses because "real" women wear pants more often.

So, how about we forget about those comments which naturally put us MTFs on the defensive, and focus on the actual hangups and issues caused by an AFAB upbringing. As I understand it FA isn't trying to say anything to the effect that MAAB transwomen don't understand what it is like to be a woman, merely saying that he and most AFABs have a different experience growing up. Guys seem to have a tough enough time expressing themselves in this regard as is, no need to make them walk on eggshells because of something someone else said.

Ohhh, guess you're right hon. Probably many of the replies weren't meant for me.  I didn't realize the thread got so off track.

Thanks sweetie.

[Nero]

Aww hon. I really, really didn't mean to hurt you. I'm speaking in blunt terms and sadly as a girl, it probably is how the world sees you. But people who love you and care about you don't see you that way. But yeah, to be a girl is basically to be a sex object. And yeah, it's awful. That's the whole point. It doesn't mean people don't live fulfilling lives as women, because they do. And you are too. But the whole 'woman as body' thing is very damaging to women. That's all. I mean imagine growing up with that message - that you are a body, a sex object - and only worth how good you are in that role - how thin you are, how big your tits are, your ass, etc.

That's always been the way it is and unfortunately so many women have caved into that male visualization game and get big breast implants in order to be seen as attractive by men. It's sadly pathetic that anyone would want to be known as the sum total of their body parts! Then there are trans women who wind up with oversized breast implants because they naturally retain that visualized image of what in their minds would make them look more female. But oh well, huh? Back in the day I was looking after three lactating Viet Cong mothers who were going to be transported to Saigon, I had to chase away several groups of morons that felt they had the right to peek and ogle, it filled me with disgust.

Yeah, it is disgusting, really. And sad.  The whole thing. I really don't mean to hurt young girls by talking about this. And thankfully, they probably won't hear it much in such stark terms. Or not. I mean, most of us here have heard guys talking. Or even joined in ourselves. We know what it's like. Thankfully (or not) guys aren't quite as critical as women are to themselves or each other.

[Inanna]

Ohhh, guess you're right hon. Probably many of the replies weren't meant for me.  I didn't realize the thread got so off track.

Thanks sweetie.

Yeh, I probably wouldn't have said anything if not for multiple posts about mtfs on the first page.  It would be like a post about AMAB diverging into how FTMs' masculinity is suspect because being a man is more than sporting a beard and calling each other dude, and when you responded being told that you're making this about yourself.  Again, apologies for any misunderstandings, FA.  You're a wonderful person and I've always held the highest respect for you on these forums. 

[Edge]

Sorry I didn't get you 100% D:

You mean that didn't stop you getting that treatment and being viewed that way with people? Yeah I guess it would not. I'm always surprised that people don't even seen to realize or care that I have like no personality of my own, I just latch onto whoever they are....

That reminds me. I was going to share some things I was taught. I'll get to it. I've just got several things going on at once.

You're a wonderful person and I've always held the highest respect for you on these forums. 

I second this. Also, my respect for FA has grown.

[Hikari]

Ohhh, guess you're right hon. Probably many of the replies weren't meant for me.  I didn't realize the thread got so off track.

Thanks sweetie.

Yeah, it happens alot, I actually had to reread things to realize, that you were not the one at all who brought up transwomen not really understanding women. Then, everything you said made a great deal more sense. I was just reacting badly to the notion especially with my style being a hippy-goth mixture that wearing skirts and dresses is somehow less feminine, because it isn't authentic enough. None of that really at all had anything to do what you wrote about, and I am sorry I made the confusion there.

[Arch]

I mean imagine growing up with that message - that you are a body, a sex object - and only worth how good you are in that role - how thin you are, how big your tits are, your ass, etc.

Things get even weirder if you have a male identity and don't even want that body in the first place. That's what happened to me, but I didn't know about trans people when I was a teenager. So in the locker room, all the focus was on chests and periods and typical girls' milestones...I wanted them so that I would be normal and fit in, but I didn't really want them. And I didn't know why. I just knew that inside my head, I was a boy...but I didn't let the two parts of me talk to each other, so I never made the full connection.

What to do? Oddly enough, I wound up doing what a lot of cis girls do: I went overboard and tried to really nail the part. Be sexy, show off what I had. But that just made me feel worse. Once I figured out what I was, I stopped doing all of that, and I thought that the bad feelings came from my transness. Years later, I began to realize that lots of real women feel it, too. The double standard, the sense that they are selling themselves out or buying into some cheap and degrading trap, the desperation that goes along with that whole "sexy woman" role.

[eli77]

Yeah, it is disgusting, really. And sad.  The whole thing. I really don't mean to hurt young girls by talking about this. And thankfully, they probably won't hear it much in such stark terms. Or not. I mean, most of us here have heard guys talking. Or even joined in ourselves. We know what it's like. Thankfully (or not) guys aren't quite as critical as women are to themselves or each other.

You wanna know something really screwed up? Sometimes it feels validating to be treated as an object.

Despite how much I hate that this is a thing in our world, how vile and demeaning it is to be reduced to my flesh... I know that's how females are perceived. And getting that kind of negative attention is instant confirmation that I am female. And that I'm a valuable female, since flesh is the primary thing on which we are judged.

Even now I still get that sick rush of pride to be catcalled, followed by the backlash of feeling like total dirt.

There are some pretty unpleasant interactions between gender norms and being trans.

What to do? Oddly enough, I wound up doing what a lot of cis girls do: I went overboard and  Years later, I began to realize that lots of real women feel it, too. The double standard, the sense that they are selling themselves out or buying into some cheap and degrading trap, the desperation that goes along with that whole "sexy woman" role.

It is incredibly hard not to want to be sexy when society puts so much effort into telling you that that matters more than anything else. That I intellectually know it's vile bull->-bleeped-<- doesn't change the emotional pull.

And, I dunno. I didn't grow up with that direct peer pressure, but I still got that expectation ingrained in me somehow. I don't honestly know any young trans women who don't feel that pressure to be attractive. And then the combination with the physical dysphoria...

I'm still fighting with myself over whether I want to get a boob job. Sigh.


FA, maybe you'd share an experience that isn't too close to home for you? I promise to bite anyone who is mean to you.

[Nero]

Yeah, it is disgusting, really. And sad.  The whole thing. I really don't mean to hurt young girls by talking about this. And thankfully, they probably won't hear it much in such stark terms. Or not. I mean, most of us here have heard guys talking. Or even joined in ourselves. We know what it's like. Thankfully (or not) guys aren't quite as critical as women are to themselves or each other.

You wanna know something really screwed up? Sometimes it feels validating to be treated as an object.

Despite how much I hate that this is a thing in our world, how vile and demeaning it is to be reduced to my flesh... I know that's how females are perceived. And getting that kind of negative attention is instant confirmation that I am female. And that I'm a valuable female, since flesh is the primary thing on which we are judged.

Even now I still get that sick rush of pride to be catcalled, followed by the backlash of feeling like total dirt.

There are some pretty unpleasant interactions between gender norms and being trans.

I've heard cis women who have never fit the 'attractive mold' say something similar - that while they're ranting and raving against this treatment of women, they're secretly envious they don't get catcalled or on the rare occasion they do, feel validated. Like they almost need this treatment to feel recognized as a woman.

And post-menopausal women go through similar. They're no longer noticed and start to feel invisible.