On the born female perspective

[sad panda]

To put it in some perspective - a trans woman says 'boys are taught not to cry or be vulnerable'

If I were to come in - 'yeah well, I had it rough too, my dad wouldn't let me cry either or he'd give me something to cry about (true story) and my cis male cousin doesn't seem to have internalized that - he cried at my sister's wedding so... oh did I mention I was bullied?'

This is what a lot of replies sound like. Or the gist of them anyway.

Yeah I get it, but again I think it's the way you are talking about it that is making people do that. You're not just saying that girls are treated worse in X ways or usually have had X negative experience. Imagine if an MTF said, "it is way worse to be a boy. It is a universally horrible experience. Being a boy equals being constantly alone in the dark. Boys are never helped or supported in things they want to do. If they don't constantly prove themselves then everybody will treat them like ->-bleeped-<-. Like less than ->-bleeped-<-, but girls don't need to do that to be loved. That's just what life is like when you're a robot breadwinner, nobody cares about men at all, nobody values men for anything more than their technical knowledge and their muscles, I know this because I had to be raised as a boy and that is something an FAAB boy will never totally experience."

Some part of that would probably make people who chose to live as a man a little annoyed because a large element to those feelings is personal, not universal. Those are exaggerations, generalizations based on personal impressions of being a man. But you get to do the reverse because of feminism? I just think you can sometimes use some generalizations about female experience to go a little overboard and paint this emotionally charged picture that sort of just reduces the experience of any and every woman or person perceived as a woman into this little box. Like, you said before that all a woman is to people is pussy. How is someone supposed to feel about that? Do you really get to say that just because you are FAAB? Idk, i just think it sounds like a really personal feeling about something and you can't say it so absolutely...

[Nero]

To put it in some perspective - a trans woman says 'boys are taught not to cry or be vulnerable'

If I were to come in - 'yeah well, I had it rough too, my dad wouldn't let me cry either or he'd give me something to cry about (true story) and my cis male cousin doesn't seem to have internalized that - he cried at my sister's wedding so... oh did I mention I was bullied?'

This is what a lot of replies sound like. Or the gist of them anyway.

Yeah I get it, but again I think it's the way you are talking about it that is making people do that. You're not just saying that girls are treated worse in X ways or usually have had X negative experience. Imagine if an MTF said, "it is way worse to be a boy. It is a universally horrible experience. Being a boy equals being constantly alone in the dark. Boys are never helped or supported in things they want to do. If they don't constantly prove themselves then everybody will treat them like ->-bleeped-<-. Like less than ->-bleeped-<-, but girls don't need to do that to be loved. That's just what life is like when you're a robot breadwinner, nobody cares about men at all, nobody values men for anything more than their technical knowledge and their muscles, I know this because I had to be raised as a boy and that is something an FAAB boy will never totally experience."

Some part of that would probably make people who chose to live as a man a little annoyed because a large element to those feelings is personal, not universal. Those are exaggerations, generalizations based on personal impressions of being a man. But you get to do the reverse because of feminism? I just think you can sometimes use some generalizations about female experience to go a little overboard and paint this emotionally charged picture that sort of just reduces the experience of any and every woman or person perceived as a woman into this little box. Like, you said before that all a woman is to people is pussy. How is someone supposed to feel about that? Do you really get to say that just because you are FAAB? Idk, i just think it sounds like a really personal feeling about something and you can't say it so absolutely...

Well, it is a generalization. But no, I wouldn't be annoyed by people making statements about what it's like to be a man, especially people who have experienced it. I've experienced both and know that there are some basic things to each. Yes, people do expect men to be stoic and unemotional and able to lift anything. I don't think that's stepping on anyone's toes to say that.

And yeah, I get to say that about being AFAB because I've experienced it. Now sure, you will probably never hear that as bluntly as I put it. But really, a woman (especially, a young, pretty woman) is valued for one thing. Men want her for one thing and other women hate/envy her for one thing. Maybe it is different if the woman is old or unattractive or something - I wouldn't know. I know it's an ugly idea. But it's not my idea. I'm just being upfront about it like probably no one else will be to your face. And I don't mean to be nasty about it either. You're a pretty girl, this is the reality hon.

Again, I hate to be crude, but I'll tell you what the older ladies told me when I was a young kid in jail - 'Girl, you sitting on a gold mine'. And honestly, that simple statement sums up a lot of what it means to be a woman and how women are seen in this world.

[Edge]

FA and Edge:

I'm sorry if this has been answered previously and I'm forgetting it, but could part of your reluctance to talk about this be a fear of making youselves vulnerable?

It would be easily understandable considering the response we've see so far on this thread.

Don't know about FA, but yes for me. That and people tend to misinterpret my words, make false assumptions about me, and ignore things I say which are triggers for me.

[Heather]

It's amusing everybody always thinks the grass is always greener on the other side. Being raised female or male is not a pleasant experience. The way society is set up hurts both males and females and is in need of a serious overhaul.

[Edge]

It's amusing everybody always thinks the grass is always greener on the other side. Being raised female or male is not a pleasant experience. The way society is set up hurts both males and females and is in need of a serious overhaul.

Precisely. All sides should also be allowed to talk about and receive support for their experiences. "Who has it worse" arguments miss both this point and the point about the overhaul.

[Nero]

It's amusing everybody always thinks the grass is always greener on the other side. Being raised female or male is not a pleasant experience. The way society is set up hurts both males and females and is in need of a serious overhaul.

Oh I agree. And I don't doubt it. I hope it doesn't come across I think the grass is greener being a guy. Cause I don't think that. I do however think that sometimes there's a lot of programming to be undone both ways.

[Nero]

It's amusing everybody always thinks the grass is always greener on the other side. Being raised female or male is not a pleasant experience. The way society is set up hurts both males and females and is in need of a serious overhaul.

Precisely. All sides should also be allowed to talk about and receive support for their experiences. "Who has it worse" arguments miss both this point and the point about the overhaul.

I agree. However, I don't think talking about what women experience in an unequal society is taking sides.

[Edge]

I agree. However, I don't think talking about what women experience in an unequal society is taking sides.

Not at all. Sorry I am bad with words and "sides" was the only one I could think of. I didn't mean as in taking sides. Once I find a word that fits better, I'll edit it.

[Heather]

I agree. However, I don't think talking about what women experience in an unequal society is taking sides.

No it's not women are not treated like equals and it's sad. I may not have been treated like a female from birth but I am treated like one now. And I'm not one of these trans women who went into this thinking women have it so super awesome! Actually I knew my life was going to get more difficult even if I did pass 100%. And I know my life is going to get harder because not only am I a woman I'm a aging woman which society doesn't place a high value on. But this is my life and while a may not have had the opportunity to spend my whole life as one I am going to spend the rest of my life as a woman and be treated like one.

[Hikari]

I am a bit confused by this thread to be honest.

FA, as well as any AFAB people certainly had a different experience growing up, and while I would dispute an absolute generalization on any childhood being the same as one another, or having the same hangups; it would be foolish to think that a large swath of the AFABs didn't have commonalities at least in western culture. This undoubtedly has effects on young people who internalize messages delivered to them, and those that seem to escape this sort of programming I will concede do seem like a tiny minority and are exceptions to the rule, and their existence doesn't diminish the struggles of the average AFAB cis or trans.

The confusing part comes in to, why at the start of the thread was there so much talk of Transwomen not understanding femininity, with implications that many were clothes obsessed posers? That was the part that invited a rather defensive response from transwomen, and to be fair that particular part wasn't said by the OP at all....

Though, I am confused exactly what the OP was getting at by saying the part about the "whale" of a woman not being able to wear what she wants, since this social pushback would be similar to all women AFAB or not. Society views a woman's worth by her looks, we all know that and it really doesn't seem like it makes a difference if she was AFAB, which made me a bit confused exactly how it relates to the AFAB experience the OP was talking about. I may well have just misunderstood the point being made (though, to be fair to overweight readers, 'Whale' is probably not the best word choice here).

Regardless, if you look at the remarks made in the start of the thread by thephoenix, and then commented on by others, I think it becomes clear where the thread went off track, because I think the goal was to discuss the negative effects of female programming on men; which has nothing to do with being critical of women liking dresses because "real" women wear pants more often.

So, how about we forget about those comments which naturally put us MTFs on the defensive, and focus on the actual hangups and issues caused by an AFAB upbringing. As I understand it FA isn't trying to say anything to the effect that MAAB transwomen don't understand what it is like to be a woman, merely saying that he and most AFABs have a different experience growing up. Guys seem to have a tough enough time expressing themselves in this regard as is, no need to make them walk on eggshells because of something someone else said.

[sad panda]

Yeah I get it, but again I think it's the way you are talking about it that is making people do that. You're not just saying that girls are treated worse in X ways or usually have had X negative experience. Imagine if an MTF said, "it is way worse to be a boy. It is a universally horrible experience. Being a boy equals being constantly alone in the dark. Boys are never helped or supported in things they want to do. If they don't constantly prove themselves then everybody will treat them like ->-bleeped-<-. Like less than ->-bleeped-<-, but girls don't need to do that to be loved. That's just what life is like when you're a robot breadwinner, nobody cares about men at all, nobody values men for anything more than their technical knowledge and their muscles, I know this because I had to be raised as a boy and that is something an FAAB boy will never totally experience."

Some part of that would probably make people who chose to live as a man a little annoyed because a large element to those feelings is personal, not universal. Those are exaggerations, generalizations based on personal impressions of being a man. But you get to do the reverse because of feminism? I just think you can sometimes use some generalizations about female experience to go a little overboard and paint this emotionally charged picture that sort of just reduces the experience of any and every woman or person perceived as a woman into this little box. Like, you said before that all a woman is to people is pussy. How is someone supposed to feel about that? Do you really get to say that just because you are FAAB? Idk, i just think it sounds like a really personal feeling about something and you can't say it so absolutely...


Well, it is a generalization. But no, I wouldn't be annoyed by people making statements about what it's like to be a man, especially people who have experienced it. I've experienced both and know that there are some basic things to each. Yes, people do expect men to be stoic and unemotional and able to lift anything. I don't think that's stepping on anyone's toes to say that.

And yeah, I get to say that about being AFAB because I've experienced it. Now sure, you will probably never hear that as bluntly as I put it. But really, a woman (especially, a young, pretty woman) is valued for one thing. Men want her for one thing and other women hate/envy her for one thing. Maybe it is different if the woman is old or unattractive or something - I wouldn't know. I know it's an ugly idea. But it's not my idea. I'm just being upfront about it like probably no one else will be to your face. And I don't mean to be nasty about it either. You're a pretty girl, this is the reality hon.

Again, I hate to be crude, but I'll tell you what the older ladies told me when I was a young kid in jail - 'Girl, you sitting on a gold mine'. And honestly, that simple statement sums up a lot of what it means to be a woman and how women are seen in this world.

It's not like I don't know what you mean... I do because I have experienced it. I do every day. I just don't think you get to reduce my life to that bc you were born female. Yeah it is a part of my life and it is frustrating to me. My boyfriend just said ->-bleeped-<- like that to me while writing this post. That he bets I wish he would give me money just for being a good girl. It was sort of a joke but it's actually where and what I am in life. Every part of my life is decided by someone else and how much freedom they decide I deserce for being a good girl. Just sit there and look pretty. That's all I do and I'm good at it. I got told I was pretty literally like 15 times yesterday cuz that's the only compliment that occurs to anyone when they meet me. but at least let me believe that that isn't all my life is. You said you're just speaking about the unique FAAB experience but you are not. You are speaking for me too.

[Edge]

I understand that people who are born female do have a tough time but it isn't THAT hard. I think we are over-exaggerating this. To me, this thread seems like us FTMs just looking for sympathy.

For some of us, it is. Just because it wasn't for you or for other people you know doesn't mean we're over-exaggerating and just looking for sympathy.

[Nero]

It's not like I don't know what you mean... I do because I have experienced it. I do every day. I just don't think you get to reduce my life to that bc you were born female. Yeah it is a part of my life and it is frustrating to me. My boyfriend just said ->-bleeped-<- like that to me while writing this post. That he bets I wish he would give me money just for being a good girl. It was sort of a joke but it's actually where and what I am in life. Every part of my life is decided by someone else and how much freedom they decide I deserce for being a good girl. Just sit there and look pretty. That's all I do and I'm good at it. I got told I was pretty literally like 15 times yesterday cuz that's the only compliment that occurs to anyone when they meet me. but at least let me believe that that isn't all my life is. You said you're just speaking about the unique FAAB experience but you are not. You are speaking for me too.

Well hon, I am. I know what it is to be a young, pretty thing. Just because it sucks doesn't mean I'm wrong.

[FTMDiaries]

...this thread seems like us FTMs just looking for sympathy.

This, in a nutshell, is pretty much the purpose of a support forum. Isn't it?

I don't think that we're looking for sympathy per se. I just think that some of us are trying to come to terms with how we feel about the way we were raised. The way FAAB children are raised is very different today than it was in earlier decades. It's difficult for people who weren't around in those days to appreciate exactly what we went through.

[Nero]

...this thread seems like us FTMs just looking for sympathy.

This, in a nutshell, is pretty much the purpose of a support forum. Isn't it?

I don't think that we're looking for sympathy per se. I just think that some of us are trying to come to terms with how we feel about the way we were raised. The way FAAB children are raised is very different today than it was in earlier decades. It's difficult for people who weren't around in those days to appreciate exactly what we went through.

Exactly. It's easy to say when you're young and haven't even begun transition. I was a sexist MF-er before transition too.

[sad panda]

Well hon, I am. I know what it is to be a young, pretty thing. Just because it sucks doesn't mean I'm wrong.

But your opinion belongs here and mine does not because you are FAAB. I wouldn't care if it wasn't like yours is the real one. But the need for the distinction makes it feel that way. I dont even really own how I feel about myself cause feminism knows what's up with people like me. Sorry if I'm just being difficult :/

[Edge]

It's difficult for people these days too although maybe in different ways.

[FTMDiaries]

It's difficult for people these days too although maybe in different ways.

Yes - and one of those ways is, ironically, the improved visibility of trans* people. Because these days, unaccepting parents can invalidate their kids by saying that they're just 'copying what they've seen on Jerry Springer' or 'getting crazy ideas off the Internet'.

Those are valid topics too, and worthy of discussion whenever the time is right.

[Nero]

Well hon, I am. I know what it is to be a young, pretty thing. Just because it sucks doesn't mean I'm wrong.

But your opinion belongs here and mine does not because you are FAAB. I wouldn't care if it wasn't like yours is the real one. But the need for the distinction makes it feel that way. I dont even really own how I feel about myself cause feminism knows what's up with people like me. Sorry if I'm just being difficult :/

I'm not sure what you mean hon. You don't think I really believe women are less, do you? I don't. I just know this is what society believes. However you dress it down - CEOs, lawyers, presidents even - they all want what you're sitting on. It makes the world go round. Other people will tell you different, they'll spout a lot of affirmative BS. But in the end, you're a woman.
Don't kill the messenger honey.

[Edge]

Yes - and one of those ways is, ironically, the improved visibility of trans* people. Because these days, unaccepting parents can invalidate their kids by saying that they're just 'copying what they've seen on Jerry Springer' or 'getting crazy ideas off the Internet'.

Those are valid topics too, and worthy of discussion whenever the time is right.

I was actually referring to the women or people perceived as women seen as sex objects thing, but that's a possibility too.