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On the born female perspective

Started by Nero, March 18, 2014, 02:20:45 PM

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ErinM

Quote from: FA on March 19, 2014, 03:39:27 AM
Hi I just read more of this. Not sure this shouldn't have its own thread. But I do think there's a misunderstanding here. Maybe it's on the part of cis women going on about male privilege. Maybe not. But it's not about male privilege. It's about being born and growing up as female in a world where that has a minority status. If it were just about gender, if the sexes were equal, it would be different. But they're not. And I think maybe this is the point these cis women are trying to make when they mention male privilege. But male privilege really isn't a good explanation for it. Because it's not about what people born male experience; it's what they don't experience.

Please forgive me if I'm being a bit dense here, but I'm just not getting it. How can one say that not experiencing the minority status of being born the female sex not imply some kind of privilege?  I could be wrong, but I always thought that was a large part of male privilege - not being thought of as somehow lessor.
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Northern Jane

Generalizations lead to assumptions that apply to only a few in 'the middle of the road', like a Bell Curve. The more broad the generalization, the fewer it applied to. And generalizations are used to separate the "us" from the "them" which often leads to a disparity when in fact each and every one of us is our own "us" and are unique in our lives and experience.

Quote from: Cindy on March 19, 2014, 03:13:55 AM
Very interesting thread, I, as some of you know am a professionally powerful woman, would I have been that if I was natal female? I don't think I would have.

That is something I realize a LONG time ago! Had I been born with normal plumbing, I doubt I would have made it through high school - I was madly in love at 13, starved for love, and would probably have been pregnant by 16. By this point in life (in my 60s) I would be a grandmother many times over and probably a great grandmother.

With the 'normal' not being an option, my situation forced me down a different path. By age 8 or 9 the situation forced me to set aside my quiet and affable nature and become more assertive because I could see nobody was going to help me survive. It also forced me to become more studious because so little was know about transsexualism in the 1950s and 60s so I needed to become the authority. I had to learn to be resourceful and to be persuasive to get others to see what I needed in order to survive and to encourage other to do for me what I could not do for myself (like hormones).

I did not know it at the time but what I had to learn to survive were also very effective skills for succeeding in business which took me from poor and humble roots to considerable success (all as a woman in a man's profession) with "people skills" and smarts.  ;) That would not have happened if I had been normal-born.

QuoteIt raises a question, do transgender women push themselves harder to succeed and transmen are more content to blend in? Or is it a reflection of societal upbringing as boys and girls that define what we do in life?

I think I WISH I had had either societal upbringing! Growing up "it" had neither "privilege" and to some extent the prohibitions of both, but that was my life and there is no doubt it shaped much of who I became.

(I did not meet my birth mother until I was 40 and when we met I found myself to be a carbon copy of her in every way - same personality, same disposition, same character traits. It makes me wonder IF childhood experience is that formative or if there is a large portion of biology in there? LOL!)
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Heather

Quote from: Arch on March 19, 2014, 03:13:13 AM
I think you should be careful when assigning a "woman's perspective" to a trans man. I certainly would never tell a trans woman that she has a male perspective. She may know what it's like to be treated as male, and she may know how to talk the talk, but that certainly doesn't mean she has a male perspective.

People who know my history frequently tell me that I have a female or woman's perspective...but they are clearly just assuming that I do. I figure that if I did have such an understanding, I wouldn't have needed to transition. I didn't have a woman's perspective because I was not a woman. Even when I was trying very hard, I was just going through the motions and didn't understand how "other" women could do what I was trying to do or think the way I knew I was supposed to think. People familiar with my past merely assume that because I was seen as female, I experienced life as a woman. I didn't. I experienced life as an FTM trans person. So I didn't have a woman's perspective. Other guys' mileage may vary, of course.

The funny thing is that people, mostly women, who DON'T know my history often see specific things I say and do as very typically male. The women I meet tend to be pretty free with remarks such as "Of course you've never felt that way--you're a man!" and "Typical male thing to say." But pre-transition, I received criticism or stunned silence when I said these "typically male" things--because I didn't have the typically female perspective.
I'm sorry I just meant what it feels like to be treated like a woman. I wasn't saying ftm's know how a woman thinks. I don't understand how men think but I do know what it's like to be treated like one. I was trying to make a remark that if men knew what it was like to live as a woman maybe they wouldn't treat women the way they do. 
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Nero

Quote from: ErinM on March 19, 2014, 06:26:21 AM
Quote from: FA on March 19, 2014, 03:39:27 AM
Hi I just read more of this. Not sure this shouldn't have its own thread. But I do think there's a misunderstanding here. Maybe it's on the part of cis women going on about male privilege. Maybe not. But it's not about male privilege. It's about being born and growing up as female in a world where that has a minority status. If it were just about gender, if the sexes were equal, it would be different. But they're not. And I think maybe this is the point these cis women are trying to make when they mention male privilege. But male privilege really isn't a good explanation for it. Because it's not about what people born male experience; it's what they don't experience.

Please forgive me if I'm being a bit dense here, but I'm just not getting it. How can one say that not experiencing the minority status of being born the female sex not imply some kind of privilege?  I could be wrong, but I always thought that was a large part of male privilege - not being thought of as somehow lessor.

Well, it could be seen that way. But it's really just the absence of something. I just think the focus on male privilege kind of clouds the point and puts male born people on the defensive for no reason. Then it becomes a divisive thing (and leaves people like me who need to reconcile all this with a male identity with nobody to talk to lol).

I just... well, we talk about gender on these forums all day and about masculinity and femininity. But we never talk about what being female means in society. We talk a lot about the baggage of male life and everything males have to live up to. But not the baggage of female life (well aside from me recently lol). I've recently discovered that some of my more insidious hang-ups can probably be traced to female programming. But I have nowhere to go and no one to talk to. So I end up ranting and probably not coming off so well, offending everybody in the process.  :laugh:

Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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ThePhoenix

Quote from: Hikari on March 19, 2014, 12:19:54 AM
I also feel fairly similar to Suzi's points; and I would like to point out, a large part of the reason why we obsess over clothes is the same reason why so many college kids binge drink- because we can nows  and we couldn't before. I bet, that most of these women will be totally obsessed with clothes and self expression for a few years, and much like those college kids, will mature and find it plays a lesser role in their lives as other things gain more traction in their lives.

The part of this thread that intrigues me is the part about transwomen having a "skewed" view of femininity and not the part about privilege or minority status.  I raised the clothing obsession as a part of that.  And I sort of agree with this point.  But doesn't that prove the point about transwomen having a very different (i.e. "skewed") view of femininity?

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Cindy

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 19, 2014, 08:26:29 AM
The part of this thread that intrigues me is the part about transwomen having a "skewed" view of femininity and not the part about privilege or minority status.  I raised the clothing obsession as a part of that.  And I sort of agree with this point.  But doesn't that prove the point about transwomen having a very different (i.e. "skewed") view of femininity?

Of course we need to be careful of generalisations, but to be honest I have not noticed transgender women standing out in dress style. Yes I do adore being taken to a party and dressing up, but sadly that doesn't happen every week. I do usually wear a skirt/top or dress, and rarely jeans, but few women I mingle with wear any thing different. Maybe it is an age and profession thing.

I ride my bike to work in my lycra, and yes I like to look good, but the guys do as well, <cough> even the ones who really should not wear lycra. At work I change into my work clothes, usually as I said a skirt and top or a dress.
But I don't stand out from other women, in fact I would be a little upset if I did, at a party bet your ass I want to stand out :laugh:
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Hikari

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 19, 2014, 08:26:29 AM
The part of this thread that intrigues me is the part about transwomen having a "skewed" view of femininity and not the part about privilege or minority status.  I raised the clothing obsession as a part of that.  And I sort of agree with this point.  But doesn't that prove the point about transwomen having a very different (i.e. "skewed") view of femininity?

What I was trying to get at, though admittedly with poor articulation was that there isn't such a thing as one view of femininity and the obsessive part you singled out is more of a rational response to an exceptional situation.

I know lots of women, and men; almost all of them cisgender and they all seem to have vastly different ideas on not only what it means to be a man or woman but also what lessons they learned from thier own expierence. The way I look at it, if there is such massive variation there isn't really such a thing as a "normal cisgender perspective" to skew from. No one really owns what feminity or masculinity is, and certainly there is no such thing as a transgender or cisgender expierence, there are as many expierenced as there are people.

My feeling is that based on what I have observed which admitting my has to be flawed since it is a sample size of one, that societies role on getting women to internalize a "lesser" status has been vastly overstated as I know quite a few women with an attitude that makes them feel like they can do anything and for all of them it was caused by parents who instilled that attitude. Certainly there is pushback from society (I.e. They are called bossy among other B words). My point is a large part of what shapes your expierence isn't really controled by society at large. It by your internal family dynamics, they have many years to mold you before you go to school and get the perspective of society at large.

I am not trying to take from anyone's expierence, just saying that everyone's expierence is shaped and formed by a wide variety of circumstances and what each individual knows and understands about growing up as any gender might not be necessarily accurate to others. I am also not saying that your past has no impact on who you are, that would be ludacrus. Merely that while who I am might have been shaped by a male childhood that it isn't the same thing as even my brothers male childhood, even in the same household we had vastly different expierences and whilst there may be some commonalities one could point towns claim they are from the "male expierence" I don't think that is enough to categorically say there really is such a thing as a particular way boys or girls are raised.
15 years on Susans, where has all the time gone?
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radsi

I dont have a female perspective at all even tho i am pre everything, still questioning and very much still living in a female body :/ , i run away from conversations about clothes and makeup lol

Society seems accepting of tomboys and little girls who wont do girl things but its interesting that theres still not an equivalent really for boys who want to grow up with their feminine side showing.. If i had been born male and always felt female i really wouldnt see any kind of privilage to that only restriction and expectation.. Whereas ive been free to pretty much let my boyish side show the whole time and never had it make a difference to what i do. I love seeing you all having some of those male born restrictions lifting when you start your transitions :)

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sad panda

#68
Thanks FA. :)

We really should hear more of a FAAB perspective here. Like beyond the FTM section :-\

I'm really not gonna say anything heavy handed personally. I don't know where I fit into this picture. But it's nice to read how everyone feels about this. I mean really feels, at least to some extent...

Edit:nvm I wrote more but I think it wasn't relevant


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Nero

Quote from: Hikari on March 19, 2014, 09:32:03 AM

My feeling is that based on what I have observed which admitting my has to be flawed since it is a sample size of one, that societies role on getting women to internalize a "lesser" status has been vastly overstated as I know quite a few women with an attitude that makes them feel like they can do anything and for all of them it was caused by parents who instilled that attitude.

I don't think that's quite the same thing. I mean, I was a pretty tough bitch as a girl. It's not something that women go around thinking about having lesser status or anything. I never did. I never thought about any of this feminist stuff until now - years after transition.
But I do think being born into the 'lesser half' of humanity and all that means affects women growing up. How could it not?
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Jenna Marie

I think this is a generally brilliant thread, and I've been impressed by so many of the fantastic insights here. (I'm also a trans woman with a long history of exploring/studying feminism [and a habit of dressing in jeans, T-shirt, and no makeup, heh] so I'm always interested in the different perspectives people who have "crossed the gender divide" bring to what precisely that divide IS and how life changes on the other side of it.) I grew up as a feminine boy who *identified as a boy* and ended up as a woman, and yes, personally, it was very different being treated as an effeminate cis boy than it was for my female classmates. Better in some ways, worse in others, because that's how privilege often works; there's disadvantages even to being on top of the heap, and sometimes they can loom large to someone who hasn't been on the bottom yet.

I absolutely experienced male privilege, and in many of the microaggression-related ways I still never noticed it until it disappeared (like the way nobody grants me personal space anymore). I expected the big stuff - like having trouble advancing in my career as a woman - but the tiny day-to-day things, while I knew they *existed,* I had no idea how exhausting it would be to be gnawed on by dozens of them in a single day.

However, FA, as a tiny nitpick, I think referring to a woman as a "whale" is kind of cruel. :( It's a valid point, but one that could be made without the insult.
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Colleen♡Callie

I have read the first page of this thread, but sadly don't have the time to read the other pages right now. 

I just want to first thank FA for making this thread and for everyone adding their insights to it.  As a transwoman, I have been searching for a thread like this, and was even planning on starting one asking for insight and experience and help from FAAB side of things.  So this thread is great.

I guess I am a rarer breed of transwoman, in that I've always had equal amount of female friends as male and many times developed closer friendships with them.  This has helped greatly, as has a cis, but curious female friend who started a TG centric forum.  She has a sister who is trans.   This friend has sort of taken me under her wing and the knowledge shared has been immensely invaluable.  I honestly wish more of my friends were more open to being teachers like this.

It sucks that you have all had negative reactions to giving advice to transwomen, but please don't stop.  Even if the woman you gave the advice to rejects it, there are those like me, who want and value it.  It is not going to waste.

On the subject of clothes, I will say this.  It is not always a sexist mindset, it can be, but isn't always and is rarely that simple.  I think a lot of it stems from there not being an equivalent of a tomboy for MAABs.  While girls can move from a princess phase to a tomboy phase and explore all the facets of their personality as they grow up, we don't get to.  Those interests, don't go away simply because they are suppress and buried.  They simmer and remain like an inch that can never be scratched.  It becomes like a holy grail not always because of sexism or stereotyping, but because we couldn't simply swap the pants for a dress everytime we desired to wear one.  We had to supress that and bury it, and everytime it just added to the growing pile and now we get to, and we have sometimes 20 or 30 + years of repressed expression and desires that suddenly come pouring over us. 

It is said you have to ration how much food you give a a truly starving person, because if you don't, if you just give them food and let them self-ration they will overeat to the point of death.   Or consider the fact that most lottery winners declare bankruptcy.  Why?  Because we all have a list of things we would do if we were rich.  This list accumulates and grows.  Now suddenly they have the money, they can do all those things... And they do.  And eventually the money is gone, blown the list of wants and desires they waited forever to indulge. It is a lot like that.  And for many, self-rationing once they are free to put on feminine attire is impossible to do. 

Another aspect is fear.  There is real fear that is we don't put our femininity on full display (probably a better phrasing for that which I can't think of so I hope you get what I mean) that many will simply reject us as trans.  Not so much in the trans community, but outside it.  That if we don't visually show or if we still embrace some masculine or more than some, the reaction from many will be, Why become a woman then?  It sounds foolish, yet is no different than "Wait you like women?  Then why do you want to be one?" and vice versa.

We are a community of often fragile people with low self-esteem and as such, the fear of being rejected and not accepted is a strong one.  It is something I recognize in myself and stand guard from, so that these will not take over.  But not everyone sees them or can stop them from taking over.

Does sexism play a part?  Most likely, and probably often, but it isn't so simple.  I would argue that even in transwomen that show themselves to be sexist, it is much less about them only seeing women as a stereotype of femininity and emulating that, and more years and years of accumulated repressed desires and overwhelming fear of rejection if they don't act, dress or talk feminine. 

My two cents there.
"Tell my tale to those who ask.  Tell it truly; the ill deeds along with the good, and let me be judged accordingly.  The rest is silence." - Dinobot



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Nero

Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on March 19, 2014, 02:05:37 PM
I have read the first page of this thread, but sadly don't have the time to read the other pages right now. 

I just want to first thank FA for making this thread and for everyone adding their insights to it.  As a transwoman, I have been searching for a thread like this, and was even planning on starting one asking for insight and experience and help from FAAB side of things.  So this thread is great.

Hope you'll still feel the same way after reading the rest. Or at least not hate me.  :laugh:
I was just talking to someone about this. I'm always nervous talking about things like this. For one thing, I'm a guy and feel weird talking about it. Like I've turned into some kind of feminist or something. Or that I'll come off as less male somehow. The thing is though - cis guys don't talk about this stuff because it doesn't concern them. They're not female and they never lived as female.

The other thing that always makes me feel bad talking about this kind of thing is the fear that somehow I'll make MAAB people feel bad or sound like I'm accusing them or belittling their experience or something. And a lot of you are my close friends. So I hate that this is such a loaded thing and that some rad fems have turned this around to attack trans women. When really, I just need to talk about things that are eating me up inside, that really bother me. If I'm ever to heal some of the most insidious hang ups I have - very toxic things that are crippling. I'm not sure, but I strongly suspect they're rooted in both trans and female issues. Toxic messages and programming. So, yeah that's where I'm at with this. If I get kinda ranty, I guess it's cause this stuff is really bugging me.

Anyway, I never quite heard the below put that way before and think it might explain a lot.


QuoteI guess I am a rarer breed of transwoman, in that I've always had equal amount of female friends as male and many times developed closer friendships with them.  This has helped greatly, as has a cis, but curious female friend who started a TG centric forum.  She has a sister who is trans.   This friend has sort of taken me under her wing and the knowledge shared has been immensely invaluable.  I honestly wish more of my friends were more open to being teachers like this.

It sucks that you have all had negative reactions to giving advice to transwomen, but please don't stop.  Even if the woman you gave the advice to rejects it, there are those like me, who want and value it.  It is not going to waste.

On the subject of clothes, I will say this.  It is not always a sexist mindset, it can be, but isn't always and is rarely that simple.  I think a lot of it stems from there not being an equivalent of a tomboy for MAABs.  While girls can move from a princess phase to a tomboy phase and explore all the facets of their personality as they grow up, we don't get to.  Those interests, don't go away simply because they are suppress and buried.  They simmer and remain like an inch that can never be scratched.  It becomes like a holy grail not always because of sexism or stereotyping, but because we couldn't simply swap the pants for a dress everytime we desired to wear one.  We had to supress that and bury it, and everytime it just added to the growing pile and now we get to, and we have sometimes 20 or 30 + years of repressed expression and desires that suddenly come pouring over us. 

It is said you have to ration how much food you give a a truly starving person, because if you don't, if you just give them food and let them self-ration they will overeat to the point of death.   Or consider the fact that most lottery winners declare bankruptcy.  Why?  Because we all have a list of things we would do if we were rich.  This list accumulates and grows.  Now suddenly they have the money, they can do all those things... And they do.  And eventually the money is gone, blown the list of wants and desires they waited forever to indulge. It is a lot like that.  And for many, self-rationing once they are free to put on feminine attire is impossible to do. 

Another aspect is fear.  There is real fear that is we don't put our femininity on full display (probably a better phrasing for that which I can't think of so I hope you get what I mean) that many will simply reject us as trans.  Not so much in the trans community, but outside it.  That if we don't visually show or if we still embrace some masculine or more than some, the reaction from many will be, Why become a woman then?  It sounds foolish, yet is no different than "Wait you like women?  Then why do you want to be one?" and vice versa.

We are a community of often fragile people with low self-esteem and as such, the fear of being rejected and not accepted is a strong one.  It is something I recognize in myself and stand guard from, so that these will not take over.  But not everyone sees them or can stop them from taking over.

Does sexism play a part?  Most likely, and probably often, but it isn't so simple.  I would argue that even in transwomen that show themselves to be sexist, it is much less about them only seeing women as a stereotype of femininity and emulating that, and more years and years of accumulated repressed desires and overwhelming fear of rejection if they don't act, dress or talk feminine. 

My two cents there.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Colleen♡Callie

Quote from: FA on March 19, 2014, 02:23:06 PM
Hope you'll still feel the same way after reading the rest. Or at least not hate me.  :laugh:
I was just talking to someone about this. I'm always nervous talking about things like this. For one thing, I'm a guy and feel weird talking about it. Like I've turned into some kind of feminist or something. Or that I'll come off as less male somehow. The thing is though - cis guys don't talk about this stuff because it doesn't concern them. They're not female and they never lived as female.

The other thing that always makes me feel bad talking about this kind of thing is the fear that somehow I'll make MAAB people feel bad or sound like I'm accusing them or belittling their experience or something. And a lot of you are my close friends. So I hate that this is such a loaded thing and that some rad fems have turned this around to attack trans women. When really, I just need to talk about things that are eating me up inside, that really bother me. If I'm ever to heal some of the most insidious hang ups I have - very toxic things that are crippling. I'm not sure, but I strongly suspect they're rooted in both trans and female issues. Toxic messages and programming. So, yeah that's where I'm at with this. If I get kinda ranty, I guess it's cause this stuff is really bugging me.

Anyway, I never quite heard the below put that way before and think it might explain a lot.

There is a far cry from saying that Transwomen didn't have the experience of growing up female (which sadly was far from our choice) and saying that because of that, transwomen aren't women, which seems to me to be the rad fem attitude.  A lot simply come off as transwomen are just men here to swoop in and save us by crossing the genderline, even when they are fully accepting of transmen and consider them men through and through (there's also the rad fems that have equal grievances with transmen sadly).  They don't bother to hide that message or be subtle in it.  But the two statements are not the same.  One is a statement of fact.  We didn't grow up female, and will never truly have the full impact of developing and being shaped by having been raised female.  It's not our fault, which sadly is why it can be a sore spot for many, which causes a defensive response.  But's a fact. 

Just as Transmen weren't raised male.  While the first page did a great job at acknowledging and pointing out the privileges that can come from being either gender, having a privilege that allows you to more freely express yourself masculinely isn't the same as being raised male. 

This is why I feel that transwomen and men sharing their perspectives with each other is a positive and beneficial thing.  We each hold the pieces of the puzzle the other is lacking and by sharing can mutually help each other out.

Moreso, being a guy doesn't mean you can't be a feminist.  I never got any negative reactions or such for being a feminist while still in the closet.   

Why shouldn't you be able to rant?  Why shouldn't you be able to get things that are eating away at you off your chest?  Yes, someone might feel insulted (though most things of importance that are said will result in someone feeling insulted) but why does their feelings mean more at this moment than your mental health?  There are a number of times and instances I feel it is perfectly and truly acceptable to be selfish, and put yourself first.  This is one of them.  These things don't go away until you've fully gotten them off your chest and talked them out. 

So I am positive I won't feel differently.  And I definitely won't hate you.  You have shown yourself to be a very respectable and stand up guy.  Nothing here is going to change that.  I really don't read between the lines looking for something insulting, and when something is somewhat ambiguously on the fence where one perspective can cast it as an insult and the other can cast it as not an insult, I tend to let what I know of the person guide me, or when I don't know them choose the perspective where it's not an insult. 

Also, feel perfectly free to pm me to rant and unload if you wish.  I'm a good listener and won't be offended at all.  So don't hesitate to use me as to just unload these things on if need be. 

I feel this post was increasingly disjointed and ramble-y...
"Tell my tale to those who ask.  Tell it truly; the ill deeds along with the good, and let me be judged accordingly.  The rest is silence." - Dinobot



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Arch

#74
I just want to share a few of my experiences that point to the kind of incessant programming that FA has been talking about. I'm a little older than FA and considerably older than the young guys here, so my programming was probably stronger--but Susan's has introduced me to lots of young guys living in conservative areas, and being raised by conservative families, who had it worse than I ever did.

When he was sixteen, my brother was pushed into getting a summer job because, you know, he was a boy. We lived in a small, closed community, and I guess my parents brokered it for him. I was never pushed in this way. When I was nineteen--nearly twenty, in fact--I finally got a job while I was on a break from college. It was all my idea.

I was not raised with the assumption that I would have a career. In fact, when I was about twenty (as I said, a college student still living at home), my mother made it very clear that she expected me to work until I found Mr. Right. I guess that's all that my as-yet-unearned college diploma would have been worth.

I was expected to live at home until I married. I obviously couldn't fend for myself; someone had to take care of me.

I did many things later in life than my brother did, and this seemed to be expected because, you know, I needed to be protected. When I started talking about moving out (I was twenty), my parents, and especially my mother, made it clear that I could do that only under their control--they even talked about investing in a condo for me to share with a girlfriend so that they could keep me under their thumb. I finally just disappeared one day. I knew they would do everything they could to keep me at home.

As a child, I often bested the boys and was often told that I must have cheated because girls aren't good enough to compete with boys. I was taunted and even ostracized for being better.

At eleven, I and a boy were the smartest ones in the class. I had to worry about what would happen if I looked (or was) smarter than he was because girls can't be at the top of their class without a lot of grief.

When I was about fifteen, some of my father's side of the family was over for Christmas. We all took turns opening gifts while the whole bunch watched. I got a rape whistle. For some weird reason, nobody was watching me at that moment--or maybe they all figured it out and pretended to direct their attention elsewhere--but it was one of the defining moments of my life. In that moment, I knew that I would never be safe wherever I went. Never. As far as I can tell, girls are brought up with the certain knowledge that they are never safe. They can protect themselves by taking classes or carrying pepper spray or even a gun. But they do that BECAUSE they are unsafe. They must become defensive.

I was raised to worry about dark streets, empty parking lots, and strangers hiding in the back seat of my car. In my college years, I absorbed the knowledge that no woman should leave her drink unattended at a party, accept a ride from a strange man, or take a shortcut to her car.

Once I became sexually active, I was on tenterhooks every month lest I should miss a period. I got pregnant twice, maybe three times. Once when I wasn't even penetrated, once when my boyfriend raped me without a condom, and the third time, if it was a third time, when the birth control must have failed (I think I had a spontaneous miscarriage early on, but I'm not sure). Sex for me was a risky venture, even with birth control, and I know that it was like that for a lot of cis girls. And abortion apparently has a terrible effect on many women. I had a cattle call abortion once and saw the devastation in the recovery room. Fortunately, I was untouched. I just wanted the growth removed.

I was assumed to be incompetent at nearly everything--it didn't have to be math or science or cars. My superior knowledge in my own areas of specialty were routinely challenged and discounted by men. Once, when I invited my then-boyfriend to "look it up in the dictionary," he told me that the dictionary was wrong. He certainly couldn't be wrong.

At a job interview, my would-be employer sexually harassed me.

If I dressed unattractively, I was sometimes ignored or even insulted to my face. The alternative was worse, actually. If I dressed sexily, men had entire conversations with my chest (well, that happened no matter what), and some men assumed that I would put out. When I refused, some men became frighteningly angry as if I were obligated to have sex with them. When it became clear that I had a brain, some men were actually intimidated and dropped me like a hot potato and wouldn't talk to me. Poor things. They had been raised in a culture that said that a man is no man if he is bested by a woman.

Boys are raised with their own set of rules and assumptions. These are some of the ones I was raised with--a clear message that girls are less than boys, incompetent, sexually available, and unsafe in the world. I'm not saying that my actual experiences are universal; I'm saying that, generally speaking, the messages were, at least in my day. I hope things aren't as bad nowadays, but some things might actually be worse.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Colleen♡Callie

A very good post, and some of these things were exactly what I was thinking of in my reply to FA, when I said that pointing out transwomen had and have different experiences simply because we weren't raised female.  Some I wasn't even really all that aware of, partially because of my own experiences and the generation in which I grew up where certain messages weren't as loudly spoken or enforced (they were still and are still there just not as loudly.)  Certain, not all.  Some are still as loud as then.

This is a fact, and no amount of hurt feelings at the statement of said fact is going to change that.  It's one thing to point out this fact, it's another to use it to invalidate transwomen.  You are FA are not invalidating us by discussing and pointing this out.  You aren't saying we aren't real women for not having these experiences.  But it's a fact we don't.  And even the ones we do get post-transition from being perceived as female isn't the same as having that from day one while you were growing up and developing your identity.

This forum should be a place for you to unload and discuss your experiences as well, without worrying that you'll cause a transwoman to feel invalidated.  These are experiences many on here have no doubt shared, and continue to share.  Even today a lot of these persist, some quieted to a degree (depending on the family and area), some as loud as ever.  It should be discussed as needed.
"Tell my tale to those who ask.  Tell it truly; the ill deeds along with the good, and let me be judged accordingly.  The rest is silence." - Dinobot



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Shantel

Hey Arch, FA, Phoenix et, al!
             I just read through the entire thread, lots of honest stuff here and I loved it. Guess all I can add is that I've been married to the same spouse for going on 45 years, it has everything to do with the fact that we have always been equal partners, considerate of one another in everything. I never needed to have my own periods, I suffered right along with her through her own, made emergency runs to the store when supplies were low, we went through menopause together, I froze my ass off at night with the icy wind blowing in the windows whiie she suffered awful night sweats. There is nothing about each of us that the other doesn't know about, and we make concessions for each other's sakes.

And Phoenix, when people ask me how women dress here in the Pacific Northwest, I can honestly say that they dress just like me unless they have to wear heels and a dress for some specific purpose. Yeah, we all dress casually, skinny jeans, tanks and layered tops, nothing frilly here. Do cis women in society suffer second class status at times, yup they sure do and at my place we do everything to minimize the impact of that societal discrepancy.
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ThePhoenix

Quote from: Shantel on March 19, 2014, 04:24:39 PM
And Phoenix, when people ask me how women dress here in the Pacific Northwest, I can honestly say that they dress just like me unless they have to wear heels and a dress for some specific purpose. Yeah, we all dress casually, skinny jeans, tanks and layered tops, nothing frilly here.

Thank you. 
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ErinM

Coleen has articulated so well many of the points that have crossed my mind in the last few hours. I have been left pondering why my responses have been so defensive.

While it was never FA's intent this thread did hit close to home to me because of all the toxic BS spouted by TERFs that has corroded my mind. I still do grapple with feeling authentic in calling myself a woman when I never grew up a girl. I still feel obligated to somehow "earn" that right.

Also I need to work past a lot of "male guilt" (for lack of a better term) that I seem to carry. Reading Arch's account brought this home to me. I have been aware that these are daily worries faced by FAAB individuals by talking to cis female friends, in school and more recently the media. I am sickened by the fact that these things still continue today. I feel guilty about being associated with the perpetrating gender and in some twisted way do feel guilty for being spared.

But enough of my whining already. I too want to thank FA and Arch for bringing these issues to light. I clearly have some growing to do.
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Colleen♡Callie

Defensiveness is a normal reaction, especially when it is in line with something we are self-conscious about or something we are refusing to acknowledge about ourselves.  It is not that easy to break the habit of going on the defensive.  It can take a long time to train yourself out of it.

But the easiest way to handle it is to take a step back.  If you are feeling insulted, and defensive, don't post.  The thread will be there for you later.  Take a step back, calm down, and when you're not ready for the fight, go back, look over the post, see if maybe you jumped to a conclusion or were looking at what was said from the wrong perspective.  Is it possible that when looked at differently or read in a different tone of voice the post is no longer insulting or offensive?  If so, it's more likely the poster was seeing that perspective only when it was written and didn't even consider that from another perspective it might be read as offensive. 

If the post is still offensive, then you are now in a calmer, more level-headed in which to counter the poster's sentiments respectfully and without causing things to escalate.  Also always a good idea to double check before posting anything in case you accidentally misread the actual words.

"Tell my tale to those who ask.  Tell it truly; the ill deeds along with the good, and let me be judged accordingly.  The rest is silence." - Dinobot



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