Am I going to hell?

[Jess42]

Believe me, if there is indeed a Hell being transgendered is probably fairly low on the list with all the child molesters, murderers, theives, con artists, people that hate because of differences from themselves and many others in the world. OK so life is not supposed to be easy so why would God condemn a person to Hell when we are going through it in life? It is a philosphical question and I really can't tell you for sure what happens after the body dies, because no one really knows. But a lot of people do use the Bible to justify persecution and hate.

In my opinion the Spirit and body are seperate entitis one being physical and the other supernatural bound together because of our fall from grace and to experience the material existance to either rise above it or delve deeper into it. What if a female Spirit is born into a male body or vice versa? God made our Spirits, the world makes our bodies. So naturally the the world or nature may make a mistake such as birth defects, extra limbs, deseases and so on depending a lot on genes. These conditions are not considered abominations. Not to mention drugs that are given to the mother during pregnancy or just a flood of certain hormones, or the development of the brain. Who knows, being transgendered my be gentic or being exposed to certain prenatal conditions? This would not make being transgendered our faults but a natural anomoly in which we are not responsible for.

I wouldn't worry about it, there are different eras contained in the bible in which this was law and that was law but in the end, man wrote the bible with inspiration of a Creator in which they in no way could fully understand and we still can't. With Christ came a better understanding of Spirituality and that was roughly two thousand years ago. In two thousand years do we not think that human Spirituality hasn't changed? I for one think so and in this life I have been through Hell.

Make your life positive regardless of the circumstances because if you believe that you are going to hell, according to some metaphysical stuff that has to do with nuerology and how the brain experiences death, you may very well experience it until the brain is fully dead and the consciousness, Soul or Sirit is no longer bound by and or influenced by a lifetime of material or physical thought patterns.

But who knows, our eternity may be the six or so minutes it takes for the brain to fully die after the body quits breathing and that's the end and we cease to exist.

Attention, the following message has been brought to you by a crazy lady and in no way can be held resposible for it being fact. Just a lifetime of reading, delving into different theologies, studying the paranormal and investigating it and just forming my own opinions.

[crowcrow223]

You are not going to hell baby! Remember G-D made us in the image of G-D, male and female. You are a part of that. The old testament Laws of Moses was used to guide believers before Christ's coming. It also says to follow ALL of the laws or it is an abomination. No one I know has ever followed all the laws prescribed in it. The Mosaic Laws became mute anyway when Jesus came. He himself said all you have to do to enter the kingdom of G-D is to profess a belief in G-D whole heartedly. The laws of Moses became void at that point. 

I'm not a biblical scholar, but Leviticus is part of the OT's Mosaic Law (aka: the law) which was given to the Jewish people -- unless you are of the Jewish faith, the Law isn't applicable to you: Christians are saved through faith in Jesus (read the book of Galation (sp?) -- only four chapters, really short); it's comforting to me, at least. 

Law is for ever. Torah is the basis for everything. I don't personally believe Jesus is the messiah, there's not even one prophecy in the jewish bible, the tanakh that would clearly point out that messiah will be G-d in the flesh, who will die for our sins and if we believe in him our sins will be forgiven. No. It's not there.

Torah was given to the jewish nation, but it's set of divine laws, the only revelation a human being ever received from the Creator. I believe the rest of the world should keep at least the 7 Noahide laws.

Torah doesn't say to keep all or you're an abomination, it's christian mis-quotation that leads people away from Torah. The notion of keeping all or keeping none is not in the text. We should strive to become more godly by adhering to the commandments revealed to Moses at Mt. Sinai, but obviously, we may stumble and fall, G-d knows that. But He loves us and He doesn't want to punish us for our sins. "Is it my will to punish the sinner? or that he turns away from his wickedness?"

I don't believe hell exists, simply because G-d is altruistic and good, that's why we should love us, because He loved us first.

Psalm 119:152  "From long ago I have known your testimonies, that You have established them forever."

Leviticus 3:17 "It is a law forever throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.."

Leviticus 6:18 "it is a permanent law throughout all your generations.."

Leviticus 6:22 "by an eternal ordinance it shall be entirely offered.."

Leviticus 7:36 "it is an eternal law for their generations."

Leviticus 16:34 "Now this is to you an everlasting ordinance.."

Leviticus 16:29 "This is to you a permanent law.."

Numbers 19:21 "So it is a law forever for them.."

[Satinjoy]

I believe in both Heaven and Hell, and Jesus unconditional love for us, and the way He sees and values our hearts, and especially when our hearts are close to Him.  I also believe there is an Adversary with malice for everyone.  But we have a saviour that gets us out.  I do not believe that trans sends anyone to Hell.  But what we do with it is important.  We need more than anyone to be powers of example of compassion, tolerance, purity, all that is good and wholesome, for a world that is falling apart, steeped in pain of broken hearts and marrages and relationships and filled with all manner of addictive behaviours.

Sounds like you are non of the negs and all of the goods.  But Christ's payment on the Cross is the Big Time, and we are not going to Hell, only if we reject His love and salvation.

Again, my very pentacostal theology here.  And experience - I have seen a lot of stuff over the years, interventions, intercessions, wild things, and also things that are not very nice.  And through all Christ has been my Hero and continues to intervene - POST TRANSITION - so He sure hasn't left.

But fear, which kept me bound and in the closet for over 50 years, tries to mess with most of us, and must be exposed for the lies it is usually based on.

No hell for trans, not if they are sincerely following Jesus.  For those that disagree -tis your right, no judgement here, but it doesn't fit my experiences.... I came from that place and moved to the centrality of the cross.   And having seen what I have seen I have a strong desire for all to find Christ and freedom from fear of the next world.

God Bless.

[crowcrow223]

I believe in both Heaven and Hell, and Jesus unconditional love for us, and the way He sees and values our hearts, and especially when our hearts are close to Him.  I also believe there is an Adversary with malice for everyone.

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. Adversary i.e. satan in the christian meaning does not exist. Every evil and every good in this world comes from ONE power, that is G-d.

G-d might use angels as adversaries in our life, which may contribute something positive in the bigger picture, like in the story of Balaam where satan was an absolute blessing trying to change Balaam's ways. Satan is a blessing.

There's a story recalled in two books of the bible that say that G-d incited David to count the jewish people. It is a sin to count jewish people by the way. G-d was testing him. In one book of the bible we read that it was G-d who incited David to do that, and in the other one we read that it was satan who did that. G-d uses angel/s as adversaries for our own good.

[...] Jesus unconditional love for us [...] But we have a saviour that gets us out.

Isaiah 43:11, the word of the Lord says,
I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.

Isaiah 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God;

Psalms
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.

No hell for trans, not if they are sincerely following Jesus.  For those that disagree -tis your right, no judgement here, but it doesn't fit my experiences.... I came from that place and moved to the centrality of the cross.   And having seen what I have seen I have a strong desire for all to find Christ and freedom from fear of the next world.

Depending on our own experiences/beliefs/opinions is pointless. It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what the Bible says... There's thousand upon a thousand of muslims/jehovah witnesses/mormons who will tell you the same thing, "Muhammad saved my life/Joseph Smith is a true prophet of G-d" blahblah.

When it comes to miracles and wonders:

If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place (my addition: think resurrection) and the prophet says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

[Satinjoy]

I will not debate you here... you would have to experience what I did, or I would have to experience what you do, to fully understand.  I know Jesus is who He said He is for me.  I would have been dead a long time ago from alcohol with His direct intervention, many times.  Our opponent would have permitted me to drink or incented me to drink and therefor to die.  God however takes over and instead of bending my elbow, I walked away, and not under my own strength, and got my body to an AA meeting where it was safe.  Tomorrow will be 30 years without a drink and I came from a condemned apartment building in Harlem walking 70 blocks sometimes to get to an AA meeting.  We have differing experiences.

But I would like to hear your view how trans affects your relationship to the Most High, assuming the heart of the law is fully kept...

The debate about Jesus, I do not wish to engage here with you, and I understand and respect your passion.  But helping the OP is a different matter.  For me, thinking the dysphoria would damn me put me right on the edge of total destruction and heartbreaking insanity.  For a birth anomoly... does not fit the totality of scripture there.   Not for something like this.

With respect....

[MadelineB]

Take it from me as a former missionary and priest who effectively used almost all of the gifts of the spirit in Christ's name to serve people: healing, prophecy, tongues, casting out demons, love (the chief of these being loved): God will never punish you, in this life or the life to come, for being the person he created.
Moreover, no person, be they parent, priest, prophet, minister, evangelist, bishop, etc etc, can tell you who you were created to be. That is written in your heart. It is between you and God.

That said, scripture is very clear about the punishment for people who hurt people for the way God made them. Or who hurt children for any reason. The kingdom of heaven has no place for bullies or bigots.
End of sermon.

P.S
I extensively studied Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Paganism, etc, and they all agree. No hell for being who the creator made us to be.

[Jess42]

Take it from me as a former missionary and priest who effectively used almost all of the gifts of the spirit in Christ's name to serve people: healing, prophecy, tongues, casting out demons, love (the chief of these being loved): God will never punish you, in this life or the life to come, for being the person he created.
Moreover, no person, be they parent, priest, prophet, minister, evangelist, bishop, etc etc, can tell you who you were created to be. That is written in your heart. It is between you and God.

That said, scripture is very clear about the punishment for people who hurt people for the way God made them. Or who hurt children for any reason. The kingdom of heaven has no place for bullies or bigots.
End of sermon.

P.S
I extensively studied Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Paganism, etc, and they all agree. No hell for being who the creator made us to be.

Well said Madeline, and to the point.

[crowcrow223]

P.S
I extensively studied Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Paganism, etc, and they all agree. No hell for being who the creator made us to be.

Quran (40:71-72) - When the fetters and the chains shall be on their necks; they shall be dragged Into boiling water, then in the fire shall they be burned
Quran (4:56) - Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise

[MadelineB]

Crowcrow, Inshallah! The blessed prophet did indeed declare the fate of the disbeliever. However, never were transgender people suggested to be infidel. In fact many leading imams and ayatollahs have written tolerantly of transwomen, and use the holy book as justification for our inclusion.

[crowcrow223]

Imams and ayatollahs' opinions pretty much mean nothing. People are fallible, it does not matter what we say.

"Allah curses a woman who wears a men's clothing and a man who wears a woman's dress."( Abu Dawud)

So what's your point? That BEING transgender is not a sin? of course it's not, you can't help what you are. But whenever a person asks a question, am I going to hell if I'm transgender or does G-d hate me if I'm transgender, I can guarantee you that what they're really asking is "does G-d mind if I proceed with my transition?".

[MadelineB]

OK CrowCrow, I won't debate a person about their beliefs or lack thereof. If you do not feel oppressed by your belief, I am glad. But for those who do live within faith systems, it is important to know that the major faiths are not necessarily anti-trans; there are leaders and congregations in all faiths that are very trans-positive, and there is real hope that those numbers will increase in time. There are also transphobes in all religions as well as in the atheist and agnostic communities. All belief, whether religious or non-religious, is subjective and subject to human interpretation. So it matters that we engage positively with believers and help them to adopt healthy opinions towards trans people and transition.

Though the Hadith are not canonical in the same way that the Koran is, and are by their nature subject to the interpretation and clarification of scholars and holy men, they are an important part of Islamic tradition. The  particular Hadith you quoted itself could (and has been) used to support transition for transsexual individuals: it would be accursed for a woman (such as myself) to dress as a man... the way G*d made me, a trans woman, it caused me suffering when I dressed like a man... when I finally dressed in accordance with the way G*d made me, a woman, I was no longer accursed. Transition is a process of lifting the curse of dysphoria by learning to be true to who we are.

[crowcrow223]

Hadiths are not just a part of islam, since if you reject them, you are an apostate, and I presume you're aware what's the consequences of anyone leaving their islamic faith.

Your interpretation of this hadith is quite far-fetched, and very biased.

It does not matter if muslims accept trans-people, it does not matter if holy men accept them, as both muslims, holymen, even jews and rabbis, they are all HUMAN, which means FALLIBLE. Even if we gained acceptance of EVERY religious person in this world, we HAVE to ignore it, and absorb the knowledge from the Torah, which is my biased opinion, as I believe this is the only revelation a human being has ever received from the Creator. but even Qur'an affirmed the Torah, plus Hadiths condemn cross-dressing.

I remember one rabbi say that we are obliged to take the simple and basic meaning of the commandments, just as it is written.

I hope G-d really sees us as the gender we feel we are, and hence we're not sinning against Him. I really have a sincere hope of that.

[Satinjoy]

I hope G-d really sees us as the gender we feel we are, and hence we're not sinning against Him. I really have a sincere hope of that.

I am glad you put that into your posts.  It changes the entire emotional impact of your contributions, in a good way.

I have to look at it - and I am conservative, albeit Christian but we have many common grounds - I have to look at it from the point of view of a compassionate G-d, of a G-d that knew before we were born who we would be, what our challenges would be, everything.  I do not believe He would condemn any of us to a life of pain, anguish, fear, self condemnation for trying our hardest to please Him and falling short, of lonliness, of living a lie to ourselves by pretending to be something else out of a motive from either fear, a desire to please, pride of legalism, a hundred motives... but we are to live for G-d with all of our heart, soul, mind.  I look at the fruit of being transgender.  There is pain, but there are those we help through our courage, there is lack of deception- and deception is bad- when we live an honest life.  For many of us including myself that suffer from Gender Dysphoria, choice is between agony, extreme depression with the potential to hurt ourselves and thereby everyone we love, and lifetime loneliness, or living a life of truth without deception and walking free.

For me, the answer to your question and hope is yes.  I came to that conclusion by way of pain.  I tried to live legalistically believing that trans was condemned and I could not, and everything I see that is about that condemnation does not appear to come from what I believe is the heart of G-d.

Living in fear paves the way for all sorts of sadness and destructive thinking.  I do not believe we need fear hell by being trans, but I do believe that as transpeople of faith we are called to a very high standard of example, so that we do not get lumped in with the liscivioius or carnal, but seen for who we are, people of differing gender living as best we can for our G-d, just like everyone else of faith.

This I would assume we can agree upon.  I don't believe I am sinning against G-d, and I am going to help as many people as I can, trans and non trans, to escape evil and alcoholism and addictions of all kinds, and find the One who made us to His purpose, glory, and pleasure, for He created us to be with Him, for eternity, because we love Him.

I hope this is helpful to you.  G-d knows the real deal.  In my heart, I know He is with me, and you too.  All of us.  We just have to reach out to Him and ask for His presence, and for Him to open our eyes and our hearts to His scriptures and to see inside them straight to the heart and mind of G-d.  Its about our desire to please Him and draw closer to Him.

Once again, I strongly believe and in my specific case I know that trans is a birth anomoly.  No condemnation for this.  I was born this way.  My body and mind is not the same as a "normal" birth male.  I have qualities of both male and female, physically and mentally, from birth.  And testosterone turned on me, I am not compatible with it.  It makes me very painfully crazy and it probably isnt physically good for me either.

Those who condemn us often don't have a clue what we deal with or face daily.  They think from the point of view of a person that does not have the dysphoria, and then condemn that which they do not understand, with no regard for other people's pain.  That is unfortunate to say the least.

Peace to all.

[crowcrow223]

I loved reading your post. It is so, so true.

If it wasn't for me being transsexual, I probably wouldn't believe in G-d. To be perfectly honest, I used to think and I still kind of do, that it was G-d who made my transition happen, transition and everything. It may sound odd, but if I were to brush all of it off with saying "oh it's just a coincidence" I'd have to be mad. Seriously mad. It all points out to someone behind it, someone working behind the scenes, someone who has a plan for me, compassion, and love.

However, there will always be this hint of doubt whether I am condemned or not, but maybe I am not supposed to ever know? I noticed, being a believer & transsexual, really stops me from jumping into wrong conclusions and judging others, as sometimes, in anger, when I fall, I may judge others, who are or aren't religious, and then I always remind myself "and who the actual f* is saying that? a ->-bleeped-<-? wake-up honey, you ain't better".

I just hope one day I'll be able to fully enjoy my life, look in the mirror, accept myself, love myself, which is directly connected to me getting all my surgeries done, and I am hoping G-d will help me raise the funds & will guide me to undergo surgeries safely. Even though I do not deserve it, I am extremely full of hope one day I will feel complete.

[Satinjoy]

Love it.  Makes me feel good.

I have that same, deep fear of Hell.  But it is fear based, not faith based, it is buy in to those who persecuted me or others for not looking and acting like them.  The circumstances leading to my acquisition of a shrink and of hormones, and the priceless gift of keeping my wife and having a very close relationship with her- because there is no deception, because I shared the scariest thing in my life to her and risked everything, and mostly because it was a G-d created and appointed marrage - these I believe are gifts from above.  Some given perhaps out of the wisdom of G-d knowing that the alternatives would be disasterous, so He allows it because it is necessary in the preservation of my soul and out of grace to my wife.   Part of my choice to remain preop is to keep her from being conflicted.  As long as I still have the thing and live steath looking like a male, she is safe from the conflict of perceiving girl on girl.  I remain deeply attracted to and in love with her.  My feelings are the same as my birth feelings as far as orientations.

It becomes about trusting Him, faith, producing good fruit, living pure, living true, looking up and not down.

I was never ever able in my life to look in the mirror and say "I love you" until I began transition.  I could only say "I repect you" in pretransition.  Now I say it to the mirror, and I mean it.   I smile when I see the woman within, I smile when disrobed, and I get that nothing happens without purpose and that by being trans, like you, I am drawn closer to God and more in line with His will for my life as I refuse to judge others, even the testosterone driven folks that hurt me, because they are clueless and could not see through their own hormones to know the truth, that but for the grace of G-d, they would be the same as we are, and they just have a different path and will answer for their thoughts and actions someday, as will all of us.

Peace, happiness and best, to everyone that posted and continues to post here.  May our G-d take pleasure in what has been spoken and honor the desires of our hearts to please Him as we live with our unique natures.  I think much good can come from this thread for those similarly conflicted and living in fear.  We have enough to overcome without that added burden.

So glad you posted, and everyone else too.

[Shantel]

I couldn't add a thing to what Satinjoy has said here other than the fact that I share her mindset 100% and so Amen!

[Emo]

No.
Its not who you are. Its how you live.

[Jess42]

What gets me is that our whole accepted preconceived concepts of Hell are taken from a book that came long after Christ was gone called Dante's Inferno. You know, the "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here", the seven levels and so on. Somehow this worked its way into beliefs as actual Hell. If you read what Christ said of Hell and the fiery pit, a lot of people believe that He was talking about the burning trash pits that were kept on the outside of towns in those areas and those days in which murderers, thieves and other non do gooders bodies would end up instead of a proper burial. Therefore the sinners ended up in the fiery pits. On the other hand, the "gnashing of teeth", "praying for death but death will not come", anguish, emotional pain, regret, fear an all the other negativities sort of sounds like this life doesn't it? Even when we are seemingly happy in life we are only one step from tragedy that will shatter the illusion of happiness.

As for the men wearing women's clothes and women wearing men's clothing, what is the whole context of the writings? If a man that is truly a man inside and out but dons female clothing to protect his own skin because of cowardice or a woman that is female inside and out and dons men's clothing for whatever selfish gains then no these things are not right. But when it comes to being transgendered and being  spiritually a female or male and physically the opposite but wearing the proper clothing and exercising self expression that fits the Spirit that God created and knew before the body was formed by nature in the womb, I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Even throughout history different cultures and civilizations have even accepted us as we are. It's just that we are living in a an extremely materialistic time in which everything is material even our perceptions of our Spirits or has to be material in order to make sense to the majority of us. Just think of the descriptions of Heaven and most people think they will be walking on streets of gold dressed in elaborate robes or clothing looking like they do in their physical life or even in their physical bodies. My mom who was a stout Pentecostal believed this way but I could never really wrap my mind around it though.

Like I said I am not a traditional Christian but do follow Christ's teachings and do believe in One Creator that we call God. Do I believe in a heaven and hell, most certainly but I think we experience these concepts many times throughout out life time and will continue to experience them until we are Spiritually mature enough for whatever else we go on to, in a Spiritual sense of course.

[Vicky]

Jess -- you have expressed my personal feelings and beliefs much better than I was able to here.  Like you I am not "mainline" in my Christian beliefs and hold your perspective of history and the ideas of social actions being in the Bible for practical reasons as well as divinely given.

[Jess42]

Yeah Vicky, I just can't seem to follow a lot of mainstream thoughts when it comes to Spirituality or religion or science or pretty much anything else. Everything even beliefs and thought processes have changed many times throughout history. Science for instance and the belief that the Earth was the center of the universe and everything else revolved around this one insignificant point in space. Oh yeah, did I mention that we used to believe that the Earth was flat at one time in our perceptions? Galileo had to renounce his revelations that the Earth and the wanderers in the sky at certain times revolved around the Sun or be condemned as heretic in the eyes of the church and society. Here we are 500 some odd years later and we know and have known the truth that the planets and the Earth revolve around the sun instead of the other way around and that the sun revolves around the Galaxy and so on.

A lot of times like my mom, we end up looking upon Spirituality as a means of punishments and rewards instead of evolving our own consciousness to a higher level of understanding. I have read, studied and asked questions from other belief systems. The main concept that I have come to realize it's not about punishments and rewards. It's not about who is more faithful or who believes more in one or the other. It's not about reincarnation or one life or atheism for that matter because there are truths to all of it. Take atheism and reincarnation or when you die you go to heaven or hell for instance, all are true. When I, Jessica dies, what used to be Jessica goes into the ground to become part of the materialistic world from which this body came from. What happens to that part of myself that is sitting here writing this posts, that very energy that allows me to think with my brain, keeps me breathing, animates my limbs and digits and is possibly Devine in nature and cannot be destroyed? I really don't know and no one else can really tell me with any kind of proof. Faith tells me my consciousness will be unbridled from this body to go on to another existence whether it be another physical life, Heaven, Hell or just an existence as pure intelligent energy. But what happens isn't the most important dynamic of human Spirituality. In my opinion and belief it is to try to understand the mind of God and to actually try to make a conscious connection with that Devine Entity. I say try because I don't think anyone can truly understand or comprehend but trying is our purpose. That children die, wars happen, many unjustices are committed, prayers go unanswered and that life isn't fair. It's not supposed to be but rather physical life is something to be overcome and to live a Spiritual existence in a material world. It's not God that causes all the strife on this planet, it is mankind and since we have Freewill it is up to mankind to change the conditions on this planet. I tend to look at being Trans as a gift with mixed emotions about it. It truly has put me through hell and emotional torment like nothing else that I have experienced but with a turn of the card it has allowed me to expand consciousness to the point of realizing that who I was born as is just a temporary existence but who I was created by God as is possibly eternal.

So, in relation to the original post: Me being Trans has expanded my concept of Spirituality, opened my mind to greater possibilities, made me extremely accepting of everyone whether they share my same views or not and allowed me to experience my own consciousness by it not being in synch with my physical body so how can I be punished eternally by a Loving Creator for that? For me it has been more or less a Spiritual kick in the butt. On the other hand it has caused me great suffering, non acceptance by the rest of society, emotional pain and turmoil, in the past a great loathing and hate for myself, anger, loneliness, depression and many more negatives. It has allowed me to see that society doesn't have to accept me and I don't have to accept society but I do have to accept myself for who I am. So in relation to Hell, I have been there already and still am at times but self acceptance makes it a little more bearable. So to me it has been a great Spiritual gift but a really bad curse simultaneously and just another obstacle to overcome to the best of my abilities.