Male dominance behaviour

[FTMDiaries]

I had an epiphany on Saturday morning.

For those who aren't aware, I'm transitioning whilst married to a man who has insisted that our marriage must end if I transition. He's been treating me quite cruelly over the past two years since I came out to him... but over the past few months he's really ramped up the nastiness in the way he talks to me. Everything he says is assertive to the point of being aggressive - almost like he's large & in charge and giving the orders round here - and I've been struggling to understand why he's bullying me.

Then on Saturday I read a story about Johnny Weir filing for divorce from his husband, and he made a comment along the lines of 'whenever you have two men living together in a relationship, they're always going to compete against each other to see who is top dog'. Well, over the past two months I've suddenly started passing reasonably well: my voice has dropped, I have facial hair, my bone structure has become more masculine and I've recently had top surgery.

So it struck me: is it possible that he's starting to perceive me as male and is engaging in male dominance behaviour with me? Is he challenging me to prove who is 'top dog'? Has anyone else here had to cope with this sort of thing in their relationships?

[randomroads]

Bullying behavior is a sign of massive insecurity. If he's ramped it up in the past few months he's most likely taking serious blows to whatever self confidence he's had in the past because you're inadvertently challenging his perception of what being a man is all about. Even if you aren't intentionally challenging him, he's trying to knock you down emotionally so that he 'wins' because he's unable to cope with the anxiety he's feeling. Men are socialized as boys to never cry over something that hurt their feelings, and they're told girls are the ones that become overly emotional at even the slightest snide remark. Being cruel to you is a grade school tactic to force you to behave 'like a girl.'

I don't agree that two men can't live together without dominance issues. Certainly there are dominant personalities and two of them may have more issues than a passive/active partnership, but generally speaking ADULTS learn how to respect differences and communicate needs or concerns without verbally and emotionally attacking each other.
I am in a marriage with a cis man who supports my transition. There have been plenty of times where he says something hurtful, but it's due to ignorance and he's always quick to understand where I'm coming from and apologize. He wants us to be together, to be happy, and to be madly in love despite whatever changes are happening in my body. He wants us to grow together instead of apart. The difference between him and your husband is that Clark is mature, honest, compassionate, and not hung up on socialized male dominance. It helps that he's the passive partner and that I'm the more active/dominant partner.

I am incredibly sorry to hear that you're going through this with him. I hope that you've got a professional outlet to talk to or some really good friends who are non-judgmental and can just be there for you. He would benefit greatly from professional help as a sounding board, and it would help him grow out of his childish behavior but people like that rarely want to fix themselves because they blame everyone else.

[Edge]

So it struck me: is it possible that he's starting to perceive me as male and is engaging in male dominance behaviour with me? Is he challenging me to prove who is 'top dog'? Has anyone else here had to cope with this sort of thing in their relationships?

Yes, I have had to cope with this sort of thing, but I don't know if it has to do with being perceived as male since I got it when everyone thought I was female. I think it has more to do with challenging or ignoring their "dominance." It is also something some people do to try to bully someone into doing what they want.

[FTMDiaries]

Bullying behavior is a sign of massive insecurity.

Agreed - and to be honest, I think he's cracking up under the strain of his insecurities. He's also being nasty with his parents and with our kids, so it looks like he has some internal stuff he's working through.

Being cruel to you is a grade school tactic to force you to behave 'like a girl.'

I warned him several months ago that I can't (and won't) cry like I used to, and that if he tries to upset me he's not going to get the passive, 'girly' response he's expecting. But I'm still trying to figure out how best to respond to his cruelty, because I do worry that he might get violent.

I don't agree that two men can't live together without dominance issues. Certainly there are dominant personalities and two of them may have more issues than a passive/active partnership, but generally speaking ADULTS learn how to respect differences and communicate needs or concerns without verbally and emotionally attacking each other.

This is what our relationship used to be like, many years ago. We used to communicate well together, but a couple of years before I came out he just stopped bothering. And since I came out, he's just dialled it up to 11. Ah well.

The difference between him and your husband is that Clark is mature, honest, compassionate, and not hung up on socialized male dominance. It helps that he's the passive partner and that I'm the more active/dominant partner.

You're very fortunate. And so is Clark. I've always been the dominant partner too, but since I've started passing better, he's puffing out his chest & trying to act like the silverback in our relationship. It's as if it was OK for me to dominate him when I was presenting as female, but now that I present properly as male he can't handle it. It's very puzzling.

I am incredibly sorry to hear that you're going through this with him. I hope that you've got a professional outlet to talk to or some really good friends who are non-judgmental and can just be there for you. He would benefit greatly from professional help as a sounding board, and it would help him grow out of his childish behavior but people like that rarely want to fix themselves because they blame everyone else.

Thanks, your kind words mean a lot. I've got some good friends, here and IRL, who keep my head screwed on straight. As for counselling, he's totally against it as he 'doesn't see the point'. Well, the point is, his behaviour is hurting his entire family. And you're right; he loves blaming everyone else.

[FTMDiaries]

Yes, I have had to cope with this sort of thing, but I don't know if it has to do with being perceived as male since I got it when everyone thought I was female. I think it has more to do with challenging or ignoring their "dominance." It is also something some people do to try to bully someone into doing what they want.

The funny thing is: he was never dominant before. We always worked as an equal partnership, but now that he's decided our marriage must end, it's like he's doing everything in his power to 'punish' me for wanting my independence from him. But it's only in the last 2 months or so that he's become really vile on a day-to-day basis.

[Nero]

It might just be he's freaking out over the divorce. Like maybe he would still be this big of a jerk if you weren't trans but the relationship was experiencing this level of problems. Though he may very well be experiencing some kind of masculinity crisis because you're transitioning.

[dalebert]

I had a few bad experiences but I've lived with a lot of men, gay and straight, and they have mostly been pretty positive and cooperative experiences without any noticeable dominance games.

[FTMDiaries]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. It sounds like I just have a first-class immature douche on my hands. But I'm hoping to have some positive & cooperative experiences myself, as soon as I can rid myself of the douche in question.

[Bunter]

 The explanation that a guy behaves in a deplorable way because he is insecure strikes me as somewhat female-socialized  It always seems to me that female-socialized people want to see the "hurt little boy" in aggressive men, which is a backhanded and clever, though somewhat dangerous way to subvert the power position of the man while maintaining a "good, nurturing" facade.

There, I've said it  now kick me out.

What I'm really trying to say is that if he treats you like he is punishing you for transitioning/divorcing, he is probably punishing you for transitioning/divorcing.

He has some reason for that, mainly you transitioning and divorcing him.

That's just the way it is, no complicated psychoanalysis needed.

You, on the other hand, have every right to protect and defend yourself from any meanness that he throws your way, even if you have a certain understanding for his situation.
That's how male-socialized people do it ;-) (and how female-socialized people should do it)

[Blue Senpai]

You certainly have a jerk on your hands and seems to not be able to handle life as he knows it crashing around him. Even when transitioning, you're still the same person you were when you both got married and he doesn['t seem to think that way. The comment he made about two guys competing who is top dog is basically what a young, immature teenage boy would think about the situation and he's way paste the high school years.

Hang in there for a brighter future with a great support system willing to hold you up high. 

[Jayne]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. It sounds like I just have a first-class immature douche on my hands.

Yes you do have a first class douche on your hands  Do you want me to get in touch with my ex & we'll hook them up, as we've discussed they sound perfect for each other.

Regardless of his view of counselling he needs it, he just doesn't realise it. His open hostility towards you stands a very good chance of him alienating your kids so if he doesn't want to deal with his issues for either of your sakes then he should at least be willing to do it for the emotional wellbeing of his children.

His insecurities may also stem from the fact that you are the breadwinner in your house & therefore even more of a threat to his position as alpha male in the household.
Regardless of his motivation for this hostility it's not on especially when you have children to consider, he's being selfish & only thinking about how your transition effects him (It's all about me, me, me!!).
Every time we've spoken about him being a jerk your primary concern has been the kids welfare, this should be the primary concern of any adult going through seperation or divorce regardless of the reasons for the break up.

Very best wishes

Jayne

[awilliams1701]

I've been engaged to an emotionally abusive girlfriend and I'm glad she ended it. At the time I wasn't. I will not tolerate her kind of behavior anymore. Male or female, I would get the hell out of there if it was me.

[Silver Centurion]

This is a situation that worries me. If he's already lashing out and refusing to tone it down or apologize I fear it will only escalate. If he won't tell you why he's being such an ass then he needs to be told to speak with someone else to get it out in the open before he wrecks his relationship with his kids and such. If he's not willing to knock it off or talk with someone he ought to be shown the door before it gets worse than this.

[dalebert]

What I'm really trying to say is that if he treats you like he is punishing you for transitioning/divorcing, he is probably punishing you for transitioning/divorcing.

There's something to this, I think. Look at the obvious explanation first before digging deeper. FWIW, gay male relationships statistically have the lowest incidence of domestic violence compared to M/F and F/F.

If he's strongly heterosexual, then the relationship is perhaps not meant to be. Is he trying to hold onto the relationship as it was, i.e. with you presenting female? That's obviously not going to happen but I assume you both have already discussed all of this in depth.

You, on the other hand, have every right to protect and defend yourself from any meanness that he throws your way, even if you have a certain understanding for his situation.

Exactly. I will be completely honest. If I were dating a guy and he said he was going to transition, I would have to break it off and just be friends. I'm too gay. But I certainly wouldn't be mean about it. Then again, I have gone to far more effort than the average person to educate myself about trans issues.

[Hikari]

Please be careful, escalation has been a prelude to violence In quite a few of my parents and step parents relationships. If someone is dead set on control and asserting themselves it usually does end in violence.

Also I wouldn't give much credence to the fact your both men making this behavior happen, seeing as people of all genders do this sort of thing. I would think the prospect of divorce looming is probably a big factor, after all if you are splitting where is the incentive to be nice?

[sad panda]

Well I don't think dominance is the right word, but control. A man's typical core fear is "I am powerless." (everyone fears being out of control, but different people stay in control in different ways, men typically use force and women typically appeal to their connections to other people, including directly to the problem person)  ...and to have the person that he invested himself in act beyond his control is very threatening, basically you transitioning is confirmation that he is powerless, he needs to have been right about you to feel in control, and to have you transition is proof that all his coping mechanisms aren't even necessary to be a man, which is a humiliation. And the more you confront him with that, the more he's going to dig deeper for proof that he is in control. He sounds pretty narcissistic, if I were you I'd just keep as much distance as possible until everything is finalized. Good luck

[Jayne]

Hi Sad Panda (what a cool name),

Whilst I agree with the point you are making it's not always possible to keep your distance especialy when children are involved.
I don't know if FTM's soon to be ex partner displays his resentment infront of them but children of all ages know when one parent is being hostile to another & the resentment can sit in the back of their minds ready to explode years later.
About 15 yrs after my parents divorced me & my father had an argument & all of the resentment over the way he tried to win favour by putting my mother down boiled over, even though I thought I was well over it this meant the end of our relationship, resentment festers & grows.

They say you reap what you sow & if you sow resentment then one day it will come back to bite you on the bum.

[sad panda]

Hi Sad Panda (what a cool name),

Whilst I agree with the point you are making it's not always possible to keep your distance especialy when children are involved.
I don't know if FTM's soon to be ex partner displays his resentment infront of them but children of all ages know when one parent is being hostile to another & the resentment can sit in the back of their minds ready to explode years later.
About 15 yrs after my parents divorced me & my father had an argument & all of the resentment over the way he tried to win favour by putting my mother down boiled over, even though I thought I was well over it this meant the end of our relationship, resentment festers & grows.

They say you reap what you sow & if you sow resentment then one day it will come back to bite you on the bum.

Uh huh, but if OP is potentially in danger and his husband is not willing to cooperate, then probs needs to stay businesslike for everyone's sake. I just wanted to point out that probably the only way to handle a person like this is to realize they are looking for control, and the less opportunity they have to think about being out of control, the less they're going to try to take control. You just can't win with someone like that, y'know? Bc they're being destructive either way.

[Bimmer Guy]

Uh huh, but if OP is potentially in danger and his husband is not willing to cooperate, then probs needs to stay businesslike for everyone's sake. I just wanted to point out that probably the only way to handle a person like this is to realize they are looking for control, and the less opportunity they have to think about being out of control, the less they're going to try to take control. You just can't win with someone like that, y'know? Bc they're being destructive either way.

I think you are really spot on with your perspective in your two posts.  The need for control is the issue and he feels out of control.

FTMDiaries, I noticed you wrote this several months ago.  How are things going?

[FTMDiaries]

Hi everyone

Wow, this thread has resurfaced all of a sudden, hasn't it?

Thanks for the kind thoughts everyone, but this thread is actually from March and I'm pleased to report that things have slowly improved over time. I'm also pleased to report that I was absolutely spot-on about the reasons why he was behaving the way he was. My physical features started shifting from definitely female to definitely male around that time, and his behaviour was his attempt at asserting dominance over someone who was suddenly presenting as a smaller male. David Attenborough could've done a documentary about it.

Here, in the suburbs of Bristol, we find the lesser spotted male human engaging in male dominance behaviour. In humans, as with their cousins the chimpanzees and gorillas, groups tend to be ruled by an alpha male, who is typically the largest and most aggressive male in the group. When challenged by a younger, smaller rival, the alpha male will attempt to maintain his position by intimidating and dominating the smaller male, often though aggressive means. In the case of gorillas this may take the form of chest-beating and teeth-baring; in humans it can involve verbal aggression, physical aggression and comparing how far each male can urinate...

In all seriousness, he kept trying to dominate me and I stood my ground and wouldn't give an inch. It didn't take long - only a month or so - before he realised that I wasn't going to be bullied by him, and he suddenly backed off. I simply used the techniques I used to use against people who bullied me in school, and they seemed to work. Over the past month he's started becoming much more reasonable and much less outwardly aggressive.

In retrospect, it was pretty darn hilarious seeing him trying to metaphorically beat his chest when he started to see me as a rival.