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{TRIGGERS} Being a woman...

Started by Nero, April 05, 2014, 10:21:53 PM

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Tori

We can explore the nature of fallacy elsewhere.

The beauty "Trap" is real, and I can see it as being a dysphoric trigger for many FTMs.

The fact is traps can be avoided. Many MTFs WANT to play the beauty game and do not see it as a trap. Others, like me, never would have transitioned if beauty was a personal requirement to be female.



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stephaniec

Isn't that probably the most explosive issue on this site to be beautiful  and " passible  , or pretty enough to "pass"  or not even to try.  .
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Tori

In the sense that passing is blending in, it does for many, take more work to pass as female than male.


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Nero

Quote from: Tori on April 06, 2014, 06:53:55 PM
We can explore the nature of fallacy elsewhere.

The beauty "Trap" is real, and I can see it as being a dysphoric trigger for many FTMs.

The fact is traps can be avoided. Many MTFs WANT to play the beauty game and do not see it as a trap. Others, like me, never would have transitioned if beauty was a personal requirement to be female.

Well, sure MTFs are viewing this with a different lens. They haven't grown up with this youth and beauty chain around their necks. Just as I haven't grown up with a masculinity chain around my neck. Obviously it isn't a requirement - plenty of effeminate guys and homely chicks around. But look around and tell me women aren't  valued first and foremost for their bodies - on a societal level.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Tori

Historically, globally, no, they were not. It is, in great part, a Judeo/Christian, Colonialist construct.


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Nero

Quote from: Tori on April 06, 2014, 07:12:15 PM
Historically, globally, no, they were not. It is, in great part, a Judeo/Christian, Colonialist construct.

Well, times have certainly changed. And it used to be that virginity was the measure of a young woman. With that gone, beauty has become the price of admission. At least the former was mostly something within her control. Now we've got eating disorders and plastic surgery addictions with the latter.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Sybil

Quote from: FA on April 05, 2014, 11:48:11 PM
I definitely identify with that as a guy. And it sucks. But at least it's mostly behavior based. As a girl, it's all about winning the genetic lottery. You either look good or you don't. And even if you do, it doesn't last. A guy at least, has the option, however difficult, of changing his behavior. And he's got time on his side to prove himself. For a girl - it's much more limited. If she didn't win the genetic lottery, she's out. For good. No amount of behavior will save her. And even if she did win, her time is very limited. A man has all the time in the world.
Thank you for saying this. I feel this pressure every day, and feel like my genetics being mostly male are a huge uphill battle for me. It isn't just limited to non-trans girls (I'm not sure if that's what you were saying?). I frequently stress myself over my youth slipping away while I try to chip away at money for FFS/GRS. I feel as though, in the end, I'll have 10 years to really enjoy life. If I'm even pretty. If I'm even passable. Then I'll be old. An old woman who no one cares about except for her friends, who know her personality. I have to fight myself not to resent losing a good 2/3 of my youth. There's no point in being bitter. For the record, this feeling of powerlessness has always been there for me. Even as a "guy," who had really great genetics (although, I was overly concerned with my looks compared to most men).

As to answer your question about what it means to be a woman, for me it means not wanting to be any other way -- despite all of the hardship -- and not really needing a reason for that. A comfortable compulsion, and nothing more.
Why do I always write such incredibly long posts?
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FalseHybridPrincess

Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 07:07:47 PM
Well, sure MTFs are viewing this with a different lens. They haven't grown up with this youth and beauty chain around their necks. Just as I haven't grown up with a masculinity chain around my neck. Obviously it isn't a requirement - plenty of effeminate guys and homely chicks around. But look around and tell me women aren't  valued first and foremost for their bodies - on a societal level.

Women are valued for their bodies by sex hungry males...

And as something close to a woman I couldnt care less about how others see my body, if they think its my most important aspect then they are just ignorant and disrespectful...

Some girls unfortunately fall for this trap but most dress the way they do to feel pretty , not to impress boys...

I just feel ashamed , its unfair really...
Women are free to act and dress how they want , there just has to be a man who ll call them sluts and bitches when the only thing he d use them for is sex...
Im dissapointed by society ...
http://falsehybridprincess.tumblr.com/
Follow me and I ll do your dishes.

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Nero

Quote from: FalsePrincess on April 06, 2014, 07:26:31 PM
Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 07:07:47 PM
Well, sure MTFs are viewing this with a different lens. They haven't grown up with this youth and beauty chain around their necks. Just as I haven't grown up with a masculinity chain around my neck. Obviously it isn't a requirement - plenty of effeminate guys and homely chicks around. But look around and tell me women aren't  valued first and foremost for their bodies - on a societal level.

Women are valued for their bodies by sex hungry males...

And as something close to a woman I couldnt care less about how others see my body, if they think its my most important aspect then they are just ignorant and disrespectful...

Some girls unfortunately fall for this trap but most dress the way they do to feel pretty , not to impress boys...

I just feel ashamed , its unfair really...
Women are free to act and dress how they want , there just has to be a man who ll call them sluts and bitches when the only thing he d use them for is sex...
Im dissapointed by society ...

It is disappointing really. And girls often do dress for themselves and the approval of other girls. In the same way boys strut for other boys. Women judge each other on their bodies and fashion more than men do. It just seems so unfair somehow as a girl to be judged mostly on something you literally have no control over. Something so superficial. Something that depreciates with every breath. Like mileage on a car. For a guy, mileage is just experience.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Tori

In the animal kingdom, it is not common for females to fall into a beauty trap either. Females blend into their surroundings better in general, males are flashier, more colorful, and the female tends to select their mate.

Humans, are no exception. The males are more colorful. Easier to see. Easier to read from a distance. At least until you add makeup and fashion.

I think, FA, we agree it is a societal construct. If society genders someone, it may happen through the filter of beauty. If someone genders themself, it does not have to.


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Sybil

I think the fundamental argument FA is making isn't about ethics or self-acceptance, but about the realization women have that beauty is power, power equals success, and success equals happiness.

We can steel our own minds, but we can't change that of others. The world is not a beautiful place where only good people hold power. Frequently, apathetic or terrible people hold power -- and to those people, a woman's beauty often does matter. Aside from people making conscious decisions based on beauty, there is also a common, subconscious edge when establishing friendships (and thus connections), landing employment, mediating disagreements, succeeding in deals, and so on and so forth. The benefits for sexual partners and vanity are really just icing. Beauty extends as a weight to all facets of life. No matter your mindset, you cannot change the world's influence over you -- only how it makes you feel, and in the end, we're only human when it comes to the amount of zen we hold over our lives.

The only thing I'm really in disagreement with is the seeming exclusionary clause for MtF. Not all people assigned male at birth were ignorant of the gripping claws of beauty until womanhood came knocking. There are some of us who have been there right from the beginning, for one reason or another (most probably unusual social circumstances). Anyone who is overweight or has a deformity probably understands this very well, too.
Why do I always write such incredibly long posts?
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Miyah48

Everything is mostly in the head for me. Physical attributes come second to my thoughts. My brain has been through hell and back with me and I just want it to feel normal. The only way to do that for me is hormones.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication
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sad panda

Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 07:38:57 PM
Women are valued for their bodies by sex hungry males...

And as something close to a woman I couldnt care less about how others see my body, if they think its my most important aspect then they are just ignorant and disrespectful...

Some girls unfortunately fall for this trap but most dress the way they do to feel pretty , not to impress boys...

I just feel ashamed , its unfair really...
Women are free to act and dress how they want , there just has to be a man who ll call them sluts and bitches when the only thing he d use them for is sex...
Im dissapointed by society ...


It is disappointing really. And girls often do dress for themselves and the approval of other girls. In the same way boys strut for other boys. Women judge each other on their bodies and fashion more than men do. It just seems so unfair somehow as a girl to be judged mostly on something you literally have no control over. Something so superficial. Something that depreciates with every breath. Like mileage on a car. For a guy, mileage is just experience.

This does really suck though. i'm so afraid of getting old. I'm trying to not obsess over my appearance only and lose out on having a skill or something but it is hard, not havin any confidence in anything about me. Being pretty is the only thing that makes me feel normal. But I'm already piling in the list of surgeries i feel like I need (that have nothing to do with being trans) just to feel human. Esp a tummy tuck. Sucks losing your flat tummy before you could even be valued for it. hah... :/
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Nero

Quote from: Sybil on April 06, 2014, 07:46:53 PM
I think the fundamental argument FA is making isn't about ethics or self-acceptance, but about the realization women have that beauty is power, power equals success, and success equals happiness.

We can steel our own minds, but we can't change that of others. The world is not a beautiful place where only good people hold power. Frequently, apathetic or terrible people hold power -- and to those people, a woman's beauty often does matter. Aside from people making conscious decisions based on beauty, there is also a common, subconscious edge when establishing friendships (and thus connections), landing employment, mediating disagreements, succeeding in deals, and so on and so forth. The benefits for sexual partners and vanity are really just icing. Beauty extends as a weight to all facets of life. No matter your mindset, you cannot change the world's influence over you -- only how it makes you feel, and in the end, we're only human when it comes to the amount of zen we hold over our lives.

Very true. And at least someone seems to understand what I'm trying to say.  :)
Obviously I feel very strongly about this. And just as many on here talk about the damaging effects of forced masculinity - well, this is my damage. And a very common one for women. It was forced on me. It's not like I could help how I looked or how I developed - this isn't about personality, masculinity or femininity. It's flesh pure and simple.

QuoteThe only thing I'm really in disagreement with is the seeming exclusionary clause for MtF. Not all people assigned male at birth were ignorant of the gripping claws of beauty until womanhood came knocking. There are some of us who have been there right from the beginning, for one reason or another (most probably unusual social circumstances). Anyone who is overweight or has a deformity probably understands this very well, too.

Well, I never really thought about that, but that makes sense as well.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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sad panda

Quote from: Sybil on April 06, 2014, 07:46:53 PM
The only thing I'm really in disagreement with is the seeming exclusionary clause for MtF. Not all people assigned male at birth were ignorant of the gripping claws of beauty until womanhood came knocking. There are some of us who have been there right from the beginning, for one reason or another (most probably unusual social circumstances). Anyone who is overweight or has a deformity probably understands this very well, too.

This is true too, lol I had to laugh and look back at my journal from when I was 12 or 13:

"Since I started gaining weight, I just stopped wanting to talk to people anymore.. slowly but surely stopped talking to basically all of my friends.. . . . Well It's amazing how much people care about your weight and how you look. If ignorance were fatal then probably everyone would be dead by now. Soo yep, I'm homeschooling now... I just hate going places. I have like no self esteem, not to mention like no friends. I hate myself..."

I have struggled with binging/purging/starving/extreme diets/harmful exercising since then... still never felt like I lost enough weight even though I did get to a normal helahty range eventually. But always gonna struggle with it.
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Nero

Quote from: sad panda on April 06, 2014, 07:57:04 PM
This does really suck though. i'm so afraid of getting old. I'm trying to not obsess over my appearance only and lose out on having a skill or something but it is hard, not havin any confidence in anything about me. Being pretty is the only thing that makes me feel normal. But I'm already piling in the list of surgeries i feel like I need (that have nothing to do with being trans) just to feel human. Esp a tummy tuck. Sucks losing your flat tummy before you could even be valued for it. hah... :/

Well, the last thing I want to do is give young girls a complex. Somehow it's important and a part of healing for me to talk about this. Because transition hasn't fixed it. I think I still view myself the way women do - from an outside perspective. I mean, I could explain it away and make excuses for it, but the truth is most men aren't as vain or focused on looks and age as me. And that's female programming. How many men do you know who use face cream? Seriously. Sure, there may be a few. But I'm not going to kid myself. it's female programming. Men may have general worries about looks and aging and all but as a side note - not the main course women have.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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sad panda

Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 08:41:28 PM
Well, the last thing I want to do is give young girls a complex. Somehow it's important and a part of healing for me to talk about this. Because transition hasn't fixed it. I think I still view myself the way women do - from an outside perspective. I mean, I could explain it away and make excuses for it, but the truth is most men aren't as vain or focused on looks and age as me. And that's female programming. How many men do you know who use face cream? Seriously. Sure, there may be a few. But I'm not going to kid myself. it's female programming. Men may have general worries about looks and aging and all but as a side note - not the main course women have.

Then it's good to talk about it :) I didn't mean you were giving me a complex w that post (damage is long done) I was just agreeing that it sucks. This stuff is absolutely damaging.
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Nero

Quote from: sad panda on April 06, 2014, 08:50:43 PM
Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 08:41:28 PM
Well, the last thing I want to do is give young girls a complex. Somehow it's important and a part of healing for me to talk about this. Because transition hasn't fixed it. I think I still view myself the way women do - from an outside perspective. I mean, I could explain it away and make excuses for it, but the truth is most men aren't as vain or focused on looks and age as me. And that's female programming. How many men do you know who use face cream? Seriously. Sure, there may be a few. But I'm not going to kid myself. it's female programming. Men may have general worries about looks and aging and all but as a side note - not the main course women have.

Then it's good to talk about it :) I didn't mean you were giving me a complex w that post I was just agreeing that it sucks. This stuff is absolutely damaging.

Thanks for that sweetie. Sometimes I worry that in talking about this, I'm painting a bleak picture of womanhood for the young and new ladies here. And I really don't mean to do that. That's the last thing I want. We hear often on this site how it is being a man and the expectations surrounding that. But rarely what it's like for a girl. Probably part of that is guys (ftms) just don't talk much about that kind of stuff. And I certainly wouldn't have early in transition. But I'm well past that stage and really have nothing to prove anymore. And a lot of baggage to drop. So... yeah.

Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Joanna Dark

I wish I could unread all of this. Ugh. If I could, I'd go back to being a man. But, I never got the chance to even try and I mean that in a very physical sense. Sometimes, I feel so alone on this board and in the trans world in general. I can't even detransition because there is nothing to detranstion to. If I stopped taking hormones and had my boobs surgically removed, they would grow back within a year. At least, that's what the doctor said. I'm all of 5'5 and 118 lbs and dropping and that may sound great to some, but I live in a ->-bleeped-<-ing ghetto, and I might as well have a target on my back. But, now I think what am I transtioning too? I'm already all the supreficial things that comprise "being a woman": I'm vain (i've been using makeup and face creams for a very long time; I always wonder how others see me and try to put myself in their shoes and i imagine what they see and how I can fix it so i can look better. I'm by far the most vain person I know. My ex said give me a mirror, a camera and some makeup and you could lock me in a room for days without a peep.

But I really have been thinking this a lot lately. Why am I doing this? I mean sure not getting weird looks anymore is great, but now I feel like am I doing this just for the looks, because I'm that vain. That doesn't seem right at all. I almost feel like throwing up.

But then again, what choice do I have. I'll just keep going into something stops me or i self-destruct. IDK. This question is too hard, may have another?
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sad panda

Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 09:03:53 PM
Then it's good to talk about it :) I didn't mean you were giving me a complex w that post I was just agreeing that it sucks. This stuff is absolutely damaging.


Thanks for that sweetie. Sometimes I worry that in talking about this, I'm painting a bleak picture of womanhood for the young and new ladies here. And I really don't mean to do that. That's the last thing I want. We hear often on this site how it is being a man and the expectations surrounding that. But rarely what it's like for a girl. Probably part of that is guys (ftms) just don't talk much about that kind of stuff. And I certainly wouldn't have early in transition. But I'm well past that stage and really have nothing to prove anymore. And a lot of baggage to drop. So... yeah.



Well to be fair it is kinda bleak. I mean trans women usually lose a lot a lot to go thru their transitions and they should probably expect that it's going to be that way. I was actually thinking about it today. It's really hard for trans women to completely assimilate. Even a long time in it's super normal to struggle forming or keeping basic satisfying relationships and pretty much anything. Part of that is being trans, a lot of that is definitely also living as a woman. Who may or may not be able to live up to standards of beauty, who barely even have value as an object and yeah, may suddenly have no worth to so many people. It's just really sad for cis and trans women alike. :c

(not saying there aren't successful, happy trans women, just statistically it is not a good demographic to be in if you can avoid it...)

Kind of ironically I sometimes think it's even harder for stealth trans women than openly trans women. Cuz if you're stealth you're just living like a cis woman with extra internal problems.
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