{TRIGGERS} Being a woman...

[Nero]

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. The exception proves the rule. And being successful in other areas doesn't shield women from this. I never said there weren't successful women. I never said there weren't happy women. What I am saying is that women are valued for their looks first, everything second. I'm honestly surprised that saying this is so controversial. I guess it goes back to what I was saying - we all want to believe in equality and fairness. But women are not seen the same as men. Those same women you're talking about probably make less than their male counterparts. They probably have had facelifts. They probably are dieting. Because they are still judged as a whole on something men are not.

No credible scientist would claim an exception ever proves a rule. To say an exception proves a rule is again, fallacious. It is taking someone's evidence to the contrary to bolster your entirely different opinion. That can prevent this thread from being a conversation, if it does not matter to you what anyone says to the contrary, as it just "Proves" your point. 

You say women are valued for their looks first and everything else second. And then you wonder why what you say is controversial, in a forum full of many women who value women for everything else first, and looks second. Also, you say this in a room full of many women who struggle daily, not to look beautiful but simply to look female.

Then you throw a few straw men into the mix by assuming these women, presented to you as examples, are most likely underpaid, face-lifted, anorexics.

As I understand it, the income inequality has less and less to do with getting equal pay for equal work, and more to do with the salary offered at jobs women tend to do as compared to jobs that men tend to do. There are also, more single mothers than single fathers, and raising a family alone can interfere with career goals, thus increasing the odds of single mothers living at or near poverty. There is a discrepancy in pay, but it has more nuance than just assuming the man working beside me makes more just for being a man.

The assumptions that these women have probably had facelifts and are probably on diets, are the types of comments that leave me surprised when you wonder out loud why this thread is SO controversial. Why? Because those assumptions seem to shed light on your narrow view of women, rather than society's.

I hope that clears some things up for you FA, since it seems you want input from us in spite of your firmly rooted opinions.

I do love your approach to topics FA, as we don't see this type of conversation too often in this forum. I don't have hurt feelings.

'The exception that proves the rule' is just a figure of speech. And okay, maybe I shouldn't have made assumptions about the women. But stats show that most women are on diets, and more women than ever are getting plastic surgery. Because we really don't let women age anymore. Most women do go through this and are afraid not to be beautiful and scared of their birthdays. Because they're supposed to be a perfect piece of flesh forever. That's how it feels anyway. I wish I was wrong about this, but I know I'm not. This relentless focus on bodily perfection and women being constantly praised and shamed for their bodies is really harmful. Makes many afraid to eat or leave the house without makeup because they'll be shamed for their appearance by both men and other women.

It's not like something so obvious as I'm describing it. It's more noise in the background, you know? Something so normal it's not even noticed. I guess for me it has become obvious after transition where it wouldn't have been before. Now, I really didn't mind it at the time. I didn't care what people said. It wasn't even me anyway. It's only now that I'm starting to recognize that all this baggage is there.

You say women are valued for their looks first and everything else second. And then you wonder why what you say is controversial, in a forum full of many women who value women for everything else first, and looks second. Also, you say this in a room full of many women who struggle daily, not to look beautiful but simply to look female.

Well, I don't mean to do that. But I'm also seeing exactly what I describe all over these forums - the focus on youth and beauty. A lot of ageism and looksism here. It's only natural I suppose because that's what women are taught to focus on. I'm not saying that I think this way, I'm saying this is the overriding message young girls get. And that it's very limiting and dehumanizing - just as feeling forced to stifle emotions is for men. But isn't better to know this is out there and that it's wrong? That's what I'm saying. I'm certainly not saying it's right.

And I'm really not trying to depress anyone or paint such a bleak picture. The last thing I want to do is hurt anyone. But maybe it's better to think and talk about this out loud even in such stark terms than to just get it in small doses every day as background noise. At least if it's out loud in the open, it can't sneak in like a poison without you realizing. And also, I've endured countless rants over the years here about the limitations and expectations of manhood and how harmful it is. And I'm sure it sometimes sounded ludicrous to me as well. But that's because I didn't grow up with it. And it's not something obvious - I mean I don't get people yelling at me daily for breaking male rules. In fact, in years of living male, I never have been. Just a few funny looks. But I still know it's there.

[stephaniec]

No credible scientist would claim an exception ever proves a rule. To say an exception proves a rule is again, fallacious. It is taking someone's evidence to the contrary to bolster your entirely different opinion. That can prevent this thread from being a conversation, if it does not matter to you what anyone says to the contrary, as it just "Proves" your point. 

You say women are valued for their looks first and everything else second. And then you wonder why what you say is controversial, in a forum full of many women who value women for everything else first, and looks second. Also, you say this in a room full of many women who struggle daily, not to look beautiful but simply to look female.

Then you throw a few straw men into the mix by assuming these women, presented to you as examples, are most likely underpaid, face-lifted, anorexics.

As I understand it, the income inequality has less and less to do with getting equal pay for equal work, and more to do with the salary offered at jobs women tend to do as compared to jobs that men tend to do. There are also, more single mothers than single fathers, and raising a family alone can interfere with career goals, thus increasing the odds of single mothers living at or near poverty. There is a discrepancy in pay, but it has more nuance than just assuming the man working beside me makes more just for being a man.

The assumptions that these women have probably had facelifts and are probably on diets, are the types of comments that leave me surprised when you wonder out loud why this thread is SO controversial. Why? Because those assumptions seem to shed light on your narrow view of women, rather than society's.

I hope that clears some things up for you FA, since it seems you want input from us in spite of your firmly rooted opinions.

I do love your approach to topics FA, as we don't see this type of conversation too often in this forum. I don't have hurt feelings.


'The exception that proves the rule' is just a figure of speech. And okay, maybe I shouldn't have made assumptions about the women. But stats show that most women are on diets, and more women than ever are getting plastic surgery. Because we really don't let women age anymore. Most women do go through this and are afraid not to be beautiful and scared of their birthdays. Because they're supposed to be a perfect piece of flesh forever. That's how it feels anyway. I wish I was wrong about this, but I know I'm not. This relentless focus on bodily perfection and women being constantly praised and shamed for their bodies is really harmful. Makes many afraid to eat or leave the house without makeup because they'll be shamed for their appearance by both men and other women.

It's not like something so obvious as I'm describing it. It's more noise in the background, you know? Something so normal it's not even noticed. I guess for me it has become obvious after transition where it wouldn't have been before. Now, I really didn't mind it at the time. I didn't care what people said. It wasn't even me anyway. It's only now that I'm starting to recognize that all this baggage is there.

Well, I don't mean to do that. But I'm also seeing exactly what I describe all over these forums - the focus on youth and beauty. A lot of ageism and looksism here. It's only natural I suppose because that's what women are taught to focus on. I'm not saying that I think this way, I'm saying this is the overriding message young girls get. And that it's very limiting and dehumanizing - just as feeling forced to stifle emotions is for men. But isn't better to know this is out there and that it's wrong? That's what I'm saying. I'm certainly not saying it's right.

And I'm really not trying to depress anyone or paint such a bleak picture. The last thing I want to do is hurt anyone. But maybe it's better to think and talk about this out loud even in such stark terms than to just get it in small doses every day as background noise. At least if it's out loud in the open, it can't sneak in like a poison without you realizing. And also, I've endured countless rants over the years here about the limitations and expectations of manhood and how harmful it is. And I'm sure it sometimes sounded ludicrous to me as well. But that's because I didn't grow up with it. And it's not something obvious - I mean I don't get people yelling at me daily for breaking male rules. In fact, in years of living male, I never have been. Just a few funny looks. But I still know it's there.

the only way for society to grow is to educate and that means to explain what others can't see.

[Beverly]

'The exception that proves the rule' is just a figure of speech. And okay, maybe I shouldn't have made assumptions about the women.

Why not? Everyone else does... that is largely what you have been saying - women can be judged superficially. I happen to disagree with that

But stats show that most women are on diets

True enough because our metabolisms are slower than mens and so we put on weight very easily. Today's foods are carb and sugar laden meaning our calorific intake is too high so it is no surprise that we diet more than ever before.

and more women than ever are getting plastic surgery.

Also true, but it is still a minority of women. Most women do not undergo plastic surgery. You can dig the figures out but it is single figure percentages. We are not talking of 1/4 or 1/2 the population, it is more like 1/20. The figures can be tricky because often one person has multiple procedures.

Because they're supposed to be a perfect piece of flesh forever. That's how it feels anyway. I wish I was wrong about this, but I know I'm not. This relentless focus on bodily perfection and women being constantly praised and shamed for their bodies is really harmful. Makes many afraid to eat or leave the house without makeup because they'll be shamed for their appearance by both men and other women.

Afraid to eat? What planet are you on? Obesity is a MAJOR problem. More of the population is obese than ever before. Look out of your window and a few obese women will be passing soon http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html

But I'm also seeing exactly what I describe all over these forums - the focus on youth and beauty.

Ah yes - this place. This could totally move the goalposts of the discussion, but I will not go there other than to say that trans-women have a different set of reasons. If I posted what I really thought of some of the stuff I read here it would go down very badly.

[Nero]

Well, I suppose I could dig up a bunch of stats on eating disorders and plastic surgery. But I don't see the point. If you don't want to believe that women grow up having terrible body image as a group (that's the thing, everyone keeps dragging anecdotes and their friends into it, and it's not about the individual), because they as a group valued for their appearance first, then there's not much I can say.

For instance, I could say that my friend is effeminate and doesn't let anything get him down. But that doesn't mean men as a group aren't oppressed by harmful and stifling expectations.

[stephaniec]

Well, I suppose I could dig up a bunch of stats on eating disorders and plastic surgery. But I don't see the point. If you don't want to believe that women grow up having terrible body image as a group (that's the thing, everyone keeps dragging anecdotes and their friends into it, and it's not about the individual), because they as a group valued for their appearance first, then there's not much I can say.

For instance, I could say that my friend is effeminate and doesn't let anything get him down. But that doesn't mean men as a group aren't oppressed by harmful and stifling expectations.

here is a stat, 75% of woman have disordered eating according to a psychological study . It's irrelevant whether it's obeisity or anorexia the root problem is the image forced on them by society.

[Emmaline]

Tsk... society again.  We really should get it serviced.

[Nero]

Well, I suppose I could dig up a bunch of stats on eating disorders and plastic surgery. But I don't see the point. If you don't want to believe that women grow up having terrible body image as a group (that's the thing, everyone keeps dragging anecdotes and their friends into it, and it's not about the individual), because they as a group valued for their appearance first, then there's not much I can say.

For instance, I could say that my friend is effeminate and doesn't let anything get him down. But that doesn't mean men as a group aren't oppressed by harmful and stifling expectations.

here is a stat, 75% of woman have disordered eating according to a psychological study . It's irrelevant whether it's obeisity or anorexia the root problem is the image forced on them by society.

Thanks hon.
As usual, I feel awful for even talking about this. I do wonder though why discussions about male oppression always go on here without comment, but trying to talk about the other side always gets everyone so upset. Of course what I'm talking about is awful and ugly! Because it is.

Sure, I'm being kind of dramatic in the way I talk about it and you probably won't hear anyone else compare women to plants and the like. Cause nobody wants to be that crude. But how far is it really from this -



Sure, it's just an ad. But it's symptomatic of how women are viewed. Women And Objectification: Brain Sees Men As Whole, Women In Parts (STUDY)

[Jill F]

what does it mean to you? A difficult concept maybe. Many trans women are without the trappings that usually define 'woman', so what does it mean to you? Being female. In scientific terms this implies the ability to give birth, but is obviously more than that. What is the essence of woman - her beauty, her breasts, her genitals? I had all these and was not a woman, however much I tried to be. So, what is it?

OK, I'll bite.  I always knew something was off, and for decades I just thought I was just weird.  I like girls, I have guy parts, therefore I am a straight guy, right?  Never mind all these wonderful dreams I have where I'm a girl.   Who in their right mind would have a sex change just to become gay?  This is the crap I fed myself until the dysphoria really bit me in the ass.

I am a woman because my brain is female and I have erased all doubts that this is the case.   Testosterone makes me feel bad, estrogen makes me feel good.  There are plenty of women that lack beauty, breasts or genitalia, yet they are still women. 

My core is female, and the dissonance of not looking like one started to bother me to the point of self harm.   The more female I appear, the happier I am.  I also no longer wonder why it is that I never quite fit in with guy culture.  Men are still sort of a mystery to me, but somehow I always fit in much more easily with groups of women.  I know why it is now that when I was in college I fooled around with an inordinate number of lesbians.  It all makes sense now...   

[stephaniec]

here is a stat, 75% of woman have disordered eating according to a psychological study . It's irrelevant whether it's obeisity or anorexia the root problem is the image forced on them by society.


Thanks hon.
As usual, I feel awful for even talking about this. I do wonder though why discussions about male oppression always go on here without comment, but trying to talk about the other side always gets everyone so upset. Of course what I'm talking about is awful and ugly! Because it is.

Sure, I'm being kind of dramatic in the way I talk about it and you probably won't hear anyone else compare women to plants and the like. Cause nobody wants to be that crude. But how far is it really from this -



Sure, it's just an ad. But it's symptomatic of how women are viewed. Women And Objectification: Brain Sees Men As Whole, Women In Parts (STUDY)

keep it up . It's very refreshing to get a knowledgeable  perspective on things.

[Nero]

what does it mean to you? A difficult concept maybe. Many trans women are without the trappings that usually define 'woman', so what does it mean to you? Being female. In scientific terms this implies the ability to give birth, but is obviously more than that. What is the essence of woman - her beauty, her breasts, her genitals? I had all these and was not a woman, however much I tried to be. So, what is it?

OK, I'll bite.  I always knew something was off, and for decades I just thought I was just weird.  I like girls, I have guy parts, therefore I am a straight guy, right?  Never mind all these wonderful dreams I have where I'm a girl.   Who in their right mind would have a sex change just to become gay?  This is the crap I fed myself until the dysphoria really bit me in the ass.

I am a woman because my brain is female and I have erased all doubts that this is the case.   Testosterone makes me feel bad, estrogen makes me feel good.  There are plenty of women that lack beauty, breasts or genitalia, yet they are still women. 

My core is female, and the dissonance of not looking like one started to bother me to the point of self harm.   The more female I appear, the happier I am.  I also no longer wonder why it is that I never quite fit in with guy culture.  Men are still sort of a mystery to me, but somehow I always fit in much more easily with groups of women.  I know why it is now that when I was in college I fooled around with an inordinate number of lesbians.  It all makes sense now...

Thanks for answering hon. I didn't mean to derail this thread with my rants. That really wasn't my intention where I started this thread. Somehow I always keep coming back to this in some attempt to heal myself. And then I feel really awful for talking about it.

[Jill F]

OK, I'll bite.  I always knew something was off, and for decades I just thought I was just weird.  I like girls, I have guy parts, therefore I am a straight guy, right?  Never mind all these wonderful dreams I have where I'm a girl.   Who in their right mind would have a sex change just to become gay?  This is the crap I fed myself until the dysphoria really bit me in the ass.

I am a woman because my brain is female and I have erased all doubts that this is the case.   Testosterone makes me feel bad, estrogen makes me feel good.  There are plenty of women that lack beauty, breasts or genitalia, yet they are still women. 

My core is female, and the dissonance of not looking like one started to bother me to the point of self harm.   The more female I appear, the happier I am.  I also no longer wonder why it is that I never quite fit in with guy culture.  Men are still sort of a mystery to me, but somehow I always fit in much more easily with groups of women.  I know why it is now that when I was in college I fooled around with an inordinate number of lesbians.  It all makes sense now...


Thanks for answering hon. I didn't mean to derail this thread with my rants. That really wasn't my intention where I started this thread. Somehow I always keep coming back to this in some attempt to heal myself. And then I feel really awful for talking about it.

*hugs*

You know you're pretty awesome, right?

[Nero]

OK, I'll bite.  I always knew something was off, and for decades I just thought I was just weird.  I like girls, I have guy parts, therefore I am a straight guy, right?  Never mind all these wonderful dreams I have where I'm a girl.   Who in their right mind would have a sex change just to become gay?  This is the crap I fed myself until the dysphoria really bit me in the ass.

I am a woman because my brain is female and I have erased all doubts that this is the case.   Testosterone makes me feel bad, estrogen makes me feel good.  There are plenty of women that lack beauty, breasts or genitalia, yet they are still women. 

My core is female, and the dissonance of not looking like one started to bother me to the point of self harm.   The more female I appear, the happier I am.  I also no longer wonder why it is that I never quite fit in with guy culture.  Men are still sort of a mystery to me, but somehow I always fit in much more easily with groups of women.  I know why it is now that when I was in college I fooled around with an inordinate number of lesbians.  It all makes sense now...


Thanks for answering hon. I didn't mean to derail this thread with my rants. That really wasn't my intention where I started this thread. Somehow I always keep coming back to this in some attempt to heal myself. And then I feel really awful for talking about it.

*hugs*

You know you're pretty awesome, right?

No I don't. But thanks. You just made me cry. 
I've been feeling so bad all night. And guilty and afraid that I am hurting or depressing the women here. I guess I'm in a fragile state right now. I'm taking a course and doing a lot of inner work to try to fix myself. So a lot of this comes up and then I start ranting about it needing someone to listen. This is one of the issues I never knew was an issue and denied during transition. I was always a male and not ever affected by anything female. That's what I told myself.

And well, I guess I've become bitter and disgusted at the vast difference in how people react to me as a male. 
I'm sorry for bringing it up and I'm going to try not to.

[Jessika Lin]

here is a stat, 75% of woman have disordered eating according to a psychological study . It's irrelevant whether it's obeisity or anorexia the root problem is the image forced on them by society.

Citation please.

After a quick search I found:

- In their lifetime, an estimated 0.6 percent of the adult population in the U.S. will suffer from anorexia, 1.0 percent from bulimia, and 2.8 percent from a binge eating disorder (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-numbers-count-mental-disorders-in-america/index.shtml#Eating)

- Research suggests that about one percent (1%) of female adolescents have anorexia. There do not seem to be reliable figures for younger children and older adults, but such cases, while they do occur, are not common.
-Research suggests that about four percent (4%), or four out of one hundred, college-aged women have bulimia. Because people with bulimia are secretive, it is difficult to know how many older people are affected.
(http://www.anred.com/stats.html)

Oops, also:

According to a 2002 survey, 1.5% of Canadian women aged 15–24 years had an eating disorder.
Government of Canada. (2006). The Human Face of Mental Health and Mental Illness in Canada 2006.

The prevalence of anorexia and bulimia is estimated to be 0.3% and 1.0% among adolescent and young women respectively. Prevalence rates of anorexia and bulimia appear to increase during the transition from adolescence to young adulthood.
Hoek, H. W. (2007). Incidence, prevalence and mortality of anorexia and other eating disorders. Current Opinion in Psychiatry, 19(4), 389-394.
(http://www.nedic.ca/know-facts/statistics)

[stephaniec]

Citation please.

After a quick search I found:

- In their lifetime, an estimated 0.6 percent of the adult population in the U.S. will suffer from anorexia, 1.0 percent from bulimia, and 2.8 percent from a binge eating disorder (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-numbers-count-mental-disorders-in-america/index.shtml#Eating)

- Research suggests that about one percent (1%) of female adolescents have anorexia. There do not seem to be reliable figures for younger children and older adults, but such cases, while they do occur, are not common.
-Research suggests that about four percent (4%), or four out of one hundred, college-aged women have bulimia. Because people with bulimia are secretive, it is difficult to know how many older people are affected.
(http://www.anred.com/stats.html)

Oops, also:

According to a 2002 survey, 1.5% of Canadian women aged 15–24 years had an eating disorder.
Government of Canada. (2006). The Human Face of Mental Health and Mental Illness in Canada 2006.

The prevalence of anorexia and bulimia is estimated to be 0.3% and 1.0% among adolescent and young women respectively. Prevalence rates of anorexia and bulimia appear to increase during the transition from adolescence to young adulthood.
Hoek, H. W. (2007). Incidence, prevalence and mortality of anorexia and other eating disorders. Current Opinion in Psychiatry, 19(4), 389-394.
(http://www.nedic.ca/know-facts/statistics)

quick search, Psych central.com

[Beverly]

So a lot of this comes up and then I start ranting about it needing someone to listen. This is one of the issues I never knew was an issue and denied during transition. I was always a male and not ever affected by anything female. That's what I told myself.

There is some truth in that. Coming from the other direction, I now care about issues that previously I ignored and there are 'masculine' issues that no longer worry me now I am living as female. There is no need to feel guilty about it, it comes with the territory.

And well, I guess I've become bitter and disgusted at the vast difference in how people react to me as a male. 

Why? It is no secret that men and women receive different treatment, twas ever thus. Some people say that I am giving up "male privilege" (whatever the hell that is) and making myself a second class citizen. Maybe they are right but I am making myself happy and that counts for far, far more. If people treat you better as a man than they did as a woman, maybe that is to your credit. I am a far, happier and better woman than I ever was as a man and people respond to that. Maybe the same is true in your own case. Maybe they respond better to you because you have become a better person.

Even if you are wrong and they are treating you better because you are a man, that is an indictment of them and not a fault in yourself. Enjoy the sensation, but be good with it. There is no reason for guilt.

I'm sorry for bringing it up and I'm going to try not to.

What? Bury it? All of us around here know what THAT will achieve. You need to let it out. Just because people disagree with you does not mean you should stop discussing it. It is only through discussion that you will come to a resolution of this. Personally I would like to see you realise that you have nothing to answer for, no reason for resenting what OTHERS did to you or how THEY treated you.

In the end you can only be answerable for your own actions.

[Jessika Lin]

quick search, Psych central.com

A link would be handy. In any case, I read the Eating Disorder section and nowhere was it asserted that 75% of all women have an eating disorder.

According to that site's statements:

- Rarely talked about, an eating disorder can affect up to 5 percent of the population of teenage girls. (Intro page)
- Right now, 1 percent of all American women -- our sisters, mothers and daughters -- are starving themselves (Anorexia page)
And no numbers beyond 'millions' in reference to Bulimia and Binge-eating.

Also, the site provides zero citations as to where the information they present has come from. While the numbers I just referred to above seem reasonable to me (as far as they go), without sources I consider the information they present to have no credibility at all.

[Nero]

So a lot of this comes up and then I start ranting about it needing someone to listen. This is one of the issues I never knew was an issue and denied during transition. I was always a male and not ever affected by anything female. That's what I told myself.

There is some truth in that. Coming from the other direction, I now care about issues that previously I ignored and there are 'masculine' issues that no longer worry me now I am living as female. There is no need to feel guilty about it, it comes with the territory.

And well, I guess I've become bitter and disgusted at the vast difference in how people react to me as a male. 

Why? It is no secret that men and women receive different treatment, twas ever thus. Some people say that I am giving up "male privilege" (whatever the hell that is) and making myself a second class citizen. Maybe they are right but I am making myself happy and that counts for far, far more. If people treat you better as a man than they did as a woman, maybe that is to your credit. I am a far, happier and better woman than I ever was as a man and people respond to that. Maybe the same is true in your own case. Maybe they respond better to you because you have become a better person.

Even if you are wrong and they are treating you better because you are a man, that is an indictment of them and not a fault in yourself. Enjoy the sensation, but be good with it. There is no reason for guilt.

I'm sorry for bringing it up and I'm going to try not to.

What? Bury it? All of us around here know what THAT will achieve. You need to let it out. Just because people disagree with you does not mean you should stop discussing it. It is only through discussion that you will come to a resolution of this. Personally I would like to see you realise that you have nothing to answer for, no reason for resenting what OTHERS did to you or how THEY treated you.

In the end you can only be answerable for your own actions.

I think I just feel really bad about it all around - about talking about it, opening up in the first place on here when I haven't really done that in years. Being a man affected by women's issues, And then I'm afraid that I'm causing harm to the women here talking about it. I guess I hear what I think is a lot of offense in some of the replies which makes me feel bad and get defensive and keep going on about it hoping I can make someone understand.
I think that going from what I was - never able to go anywhere or do anything without compliments and the opposite on my appearance and seeing the difference. I feel like I'm seen as a whole person. You know, maybe other women didn't have it the same. I don't know. Maybe it was my appearance and people's reactions to it which made me this way. Never being allowed to forget it. I think it contributed to my social anxiety.

[Sarah Louise]

FA, there are so many factors that go into our view of life.  Things we have no control over.

Sometimes I have the habit of "burying my head in the sand", it hurts too much to think about my past, so I try to avoid it.  Guess what, that doesn't work.

Your facing your demons, I'm proud of you for that.

[Beverly]

And then I'm afraid that I'm causing harm to the women here talking about it. I guess I hear what I think is a lot of offense in some of the replies which makes me feel bad and get defensive and keep going on about it hoping I can make someone understand.

Many feel passionate about the issues - just like you do - and sometimes things are not expressed well. It usually sorts itself out.

You know, maybe other women didn't have it the same. I don't know. Maybe it was my appearance and people's reactions to it which made me this way. Never being allowed to forget it. I think it contributed to my social anxiety.

I agree.

I know for a fact that other women did not have it the same because I have been surrounded by women all my life. I have always had a lot of female friends, female work colleagues and I always got on better with my female relatives. I have daughters of my own and their friends are often here. Out of that collection, they were aware of the effect of beauty but out of all of them only a handful were badly affected by it - 2 or 3.

If you need to keep on about this topic then do so. You know that covering it up will solve nothing except to make it worse.

[stephaniec]

A link would be handy. In any case, I read the Eating Disorder section and nowhere was it asserted that 75% of all women have an eating disorder.

According to that site's statements:

- Rarely talked about, an eating disorder can affect up to 5 percent of the population of teenage girls. (Intro page)
- Right now, 1 percent of all American women -- our sisters, mothers and daughters -- are starving themselves (Anorexia page)
And no numbers beyond 'millions' in reference to Bulimia and Binge-eating.

Also, the site provides zero citations as to where the information they present has come from. While the numbers I just referred to above seem reasonable to me (as far as they go), without sources I consider the information they present to have no credibility at all.

it's on the web page where you find % of woman with eaating disorders. look for 75% of woman have disordered eating. that's the best I can do because I don[t know how to do that link stuff it is there under the psych central.com address of the heading 75% of woman have disordered eating