Yeson Voice Surgery Post-Op Thread

[Jennygirl]

Ahhh, I feel dim now...makes total sense now, thanks Jenny! I'm the same btw...when I don't put any effort feminising my voice to soften it, my voice has quite a 'bite' too

Btw...quick question: Lately I've been trying to get my voice back into good shape in terms of (upper) range with regular singing exercises after considerable time without doing them and not singing very much. My range is getting better again top end...but do you think this is a benefit or do u think it's more important to have a good period of vocal rest prior to the procedure? I'll ask Jessie about her thoughts too but wondered what you gals thought.

Thanks,

Gigi

Definitely a smart idea to ask her, but I would guess as long as you are being gentle it cannot hurt

I think I actually damaged my vocal cords doing vocal exercises long ago and that is what developed my vocal tremor, so please do be careful! While doing those exercises your throat should not feel the slightest bit restrained. It should be totally relaxed and comfortable. I was doing quite the opposite for a number of years :/ Luckily though everything turned out okay because Dr. Kim is a magical wizard

[alexiakk]

You're probably saving yourself a lot of healing time, I'd say keep it up until the month mark if you can

The amount of healing and adjustment that has to take place is kind of nuts. Here is my comparison from 1 week to 11 months of recovery:



She said I do NOT have a vocal tremor, and that likely the upper range difference to cis is likely because the muscle groups in my voicebox are built for bigger vocal cords. So there you have it I have a feeling that upper range will continue to improve slightly as years go by, but seeing how low my voice was pre-op I'm not at all unsatisfied. I've managed to go from C5 to ~G5 on the high end which is noteworthy.

Jenny, that question I asked Dr. Kim previously. He said that there are two reasons the extreme upper extension is hard to get: 1 is that the brain changes the muscle patterns (if I remembered correctly he told me there are 15 set of patterns) in singing while androgen level elevates during puberty in order to adapt to the enlarged cords. 2 is the difference in length of size of vocal tract. However I don't think the second one is "that" influential though...

I think abby's still in the recovering process, or you were really just too low pre-op... There were several clips I shared with Amy just several days before she had her surgery, Ima try posting it:




These are the singing of a Hongkonese patient a fairly long time after the operation. Although it's kinda auto-tuned, Amy confirmed that she did have a good quality on those G5s in the first clip. There are more in her channels.

I want to point out though, when she WAS 3 months (already 3 months!!) her singing voice was really poor just as this clip indicates:

But I think she was a tenor pre-op at least.

[alexiakk]

Note that there are E6s at the very end of the first clip... that's the altissimo register I believe, haven't been totally whistle.

[alexiakk]

Definitely a smart idea to ask her, but I would guess as long as you are being gentle it cannot hurt

I think I actually damaged my vocal cords doing vocal exercises long ago and that is what developed my vocal tremor, so please do be careful! While doing those exercises your throat should not feel the slightest bit restrained. It should be totally relaxed and comfortable. I was doing quite the opposite for a number of years :/ Luckily though everything turned out okay because Dr. Kim is a magical wizard

Jenny you're so experienced

There is one point I am really concerned about Dr. Kim's judgement on tremor: I have two friends (cis male) both judged by Dr. Kim to possess vocal tremor - however, none of them "actually" possess tremor (just as you, the ENT said you do NOT have tremor), at least the one whom I've known since junior high doesn't. Dr. Thomas told him that he just becomes nervous very easily and his habits make his vibrato too heavy. Another one I don't know that much, but another China doctor he met told him he doesn't have tremor either. The TRUE tremor is like this: according to them... and it seems like Dr. Kim judges all vibratos as tremor.

This I may need Amy's to answer: Did he make you sing some notes, and did you put vibratos in them?

[AmyBerlin]

Hi Alexia,

Note that there are E6s at the very end of the first clip... that's the altissimo register I believe, haven't been totally whistle.

AFAIK (what little I do know), altissimo is just another word for whistle. Yes, and anything above around C6 (soprano high C) is altissimo/whistle, there's no other way to produce these notes. BTW, for the un-Yesonized male voice, altissimo starts about an octave below (it's the same effect, the vocal cords "zip up", although sound-wise, it cannot be aptly called "whistle").

There is one point I am really concerned about Dr. Kim's judgement on tremor: I have two friends (cis male) both judged by Dr. Kim to possess vocal tremor - however, none of them "actually" possess tremor (just as you, the ENT said you do NOT have tremor) [...] and it seems like Dr. Kim judges all vibratos as tremor.

This is the impression I have as well. I suspected that even before I went to Korea, that's why I made a point of producing notes straight as an arrow during the examination.

This I may need Amy's to answer: Did he make you sing some notes, and did you put vibratos in them?

Dead on. That he did. I was to sing various notes up the scale, but in the first note, a really low one, G2 maybe, I was too nervous to remember my no-vibrato strategy and I sang the note with vibrato. All others were dead straight. And precisely, Dr. Kim picked that note and said I'd have slight tremor in the extreme low range. Apparently it wasn't enough for him to suggest Botox though, but if it had been, I'd have started a discussion.

So it seems: notwithstanding his undoubted surgical prowess, take any tremor diagnosis by Dr. Kim with a grain of salt.

Just my 2¢,

Amy

[anjaq]

I want to point out though, when she WAS 3 months (already 3 months!!) her singing voice was really poor just as this clip indicates:
But I think she was a tenor pre-op at least.

That is amazingly bad in that video. I am astonished that Dr Kim puts it on youtube like that. Anything in the head voice seems broken and not working well at all for her. 3 Months is clearly too early, so it is not saying a lot but I wonder why even try to make a singing recording at just 3 months and then posting it online. Ah well - if anything, they should also put up a 6 and 12 month video. From all the results. I think it is a really annoying thing that there is a lack of long term result videos

Does being a Tenor or a Bass make such a difference in the upper range? My voice therapist said, I actually managed for some moments to reach a C6 (could not sing in it though, but who knows what some training would do) and I am definitely Bass or Bariton physiologically. I think it probably would be harder for me to sing in that range than for a Tenor though, but I have no clue about singing - The talking voice in the 3 month clip there is pretty ok though with a good change pre vs post op.

[Charlotte]

Alexia, Thank you for posting the Kelly C. singing video. I remember listening to her 3 month video on Yeson and feeling sad that I might never be able to sing again. So what a pleasant surprise to hear her latest video! Even allowing for autotune I think it sounds great.

With this and the clip Voodle posted yesterday of her wonderfully smooth voice it's really good to hear some more great long-term results.  It's eased my worries so much! The adrenaline has really kicked in today!

And thank you Amy for the tip about the vibrato. I'll try and sing the notes as straight as I can
Also I've practicing doing my old 110Hz voice consistently and it's not easy - I just instinctively keep bringing it up. I want to make sure Dr Kim realises just how low my 'natural' voice is.

[alexiakk]

That is amazingly bad in that video. I am astonished that Dr Kim puts it on youtube like that. Anything in the head voice seems broken and not working well at all for her. 3 Months is clearly too early, so it is not saying a lot but I wonder why even try to make a singing recording at just 3 months and then posting it online. Ah well - if anything, they should also put up a 6 and 12 month video. From all the results. I think it is a really annoying thing that there is a lack of long term result videos

Does being a Tenor or a Bass make such a difference in the upper range? My voice therapist said, I actually managed for some moments to reach a C6 (could not sing in it though, but who knows what some training would do) and I am definitely Bass or Bariton physiologically. I think it probably would be harder for me to sing in that range than for a Tenor though, but I have no clue about singing - The talking voice in the 3 month clip there is pretty ok though with a good change pre vs post op.

Ikr!! The cis male friend I mentioned had his nodule surgery with Dr. Kim, and his range was very limited until 5 months post-op; he starts talking with no problem 3 weeks post-op though. And VFS is clearly a larger surgery, so I think 3 months is indeed too early. (This one I really have no idea, but I think SarahR may have good result  )

I think there are differences. Tenor/Bass unless you're like Amy who has learned and trained almost everything in technique, there are differences in habits and tessitura. If your tessitura was originally low (I heard this is the main difference between contra-alto and tenor?), I can't imagine you sing the higher counterpart post-op.

[alexiakk]

I am not really sure whether the effect of this surgery is like the "shift" of range to upper part? If it is, then the bass/tenor thing I mentioned may have some ideas... Most countertenors/tenors are comfortable with using their upper part of voice and basses use their lower part of voice, so post-op I suspect this also contributes to something.

It's like, contra-alto transman may adapt to their voice change easier than soprano transman?

[Meria]

Wow, this is really interesting. I've heard before about voice feminization surgery, but at the time, they didn't really speak very well about the surgery. For all I knew, they said that the voice effect was like Mickey Mouse, unnatural and annoying sound, and suposedly it was a VERY dangerous surgery that made me get scared and don't even think about it.

But I've been looking around and this seems to have good results. So... Is it really as risky and dangerous as I heard it was?

[anjaq]

Hey Meria. They still usually say that. My ENT was saying I should not do this as I WILL get hoarse and loose volume and loose some at the low and upper end. My voice therapist was concerned as well, saying she had a patient who had a Mickey Mouse voice and needed to train to lower it afterwards plus another one that became hoarse. Another voice therapist said that one can never scream or yell afterwards and needs a whistle to gain attention. Horror Stories. I spoke to 3 people who did this surgery in Germany. I was not impressed. They DID actually sound hoarse or strained - two had a glottoplasty like Dr kim does and two a CTA. Sadly all of them smoked or talked within the healing period, so they are not representative. I never heard a good result of CTA, but it seems Dr Kim does something different from all of them as I have not yet heard anyone sound hoarse or strained. The worst case I have seen up to now was some cases where the change was not as pronounced as hoped for. So it seems that finally there is a way that this actually can work, although most people still remember all the bad results of the past decades.

[Boca.Lisa]

Hi Everyone,

I'm now just over 2 months post op. I'm posting this here hoping someone can tell me if this is normal.

I've started my vocal exercises but am finding them difficult. I cannot hit all the notes and really have no upper range any more. When doing the candle blowing or lip trills from middle C, I cant raise my voice more than 6 notes and am unable to reach a B (or Ti on Do-Rey-Mi scale)

Overall my pitch has not changed much from before surgery and I'm a little disappointed in the outcome. If I speak from my chest, my voice is not good. When I pull it into my head it's better but not what I had hoped for. I don't want to get discouraged as I know I might hear some additional change in the future.

Is this common? Anyone else experience this?

[Charlotte]

Hi Everyone,

I'm now just over 2 months post op. I'm posting this here hoping someone can tell me if this is normal.

I've started my vocal exercises but am finding them difficult. I cannot hit all the notes and really have no upper range any more. When doing the candle blowing or lip trills from middle C, I cant raise my voice more than 6 notes and am unable to reach a B (or Ti on Do-Rey-Mi scale)

Overall my pitch has not changed much from before surgery and I'm a little disappointed in the outcome. If I speak from my chest, my voice is not good. When I pull it into my head it's better but not what I had hoped for. I don't want to get discouraged as I know I might hear some additional change in the future.

Is this common? Anyone else experience this?

Hi Lisa, I don't know if this is any help but have you checked your range on Jenny's progress graph :

Here is a graph that will maybe ease your mind.

This shows (to the best of my memory) how my range changed from pre op through the first 7 months

The red squares are an approximation of my fundamental frequency in normal speech. The blue rectangles show my minimum/maximum range. Obviously when I was where you are now so early in recovery, I wasn't actually testing my range to the fullest extent. This is where it seemed to be though.

If you're at 8 weeks it look like your highest note will be F4 or G4. Just my 2 cents. Hope things keep improving. 

[anjaq]

I guess you cannot really take Jennys graph 1:1 as every voice is different. But it seems the trend is that there is still a lot room for improvement at week 8. what was your range before and what is it now? Have you checked the pre and post op fundamental frequency as well as the lowest-you-can-do tone? sometimes we jus think it is the same but it is not. Did your voice quality change (less deep undertones), did you compare your relaxed - nontrained voice with your present relaxed voice or did you compare your pre and post trained voice? In the latter case, maybe you feel that it comes more natural  and easier now even if it is the same pitch?

Actually I am a bit amazed that Jenny shows in that graph that her highest pre op note was a B4 only. I am at A5 if I push it a bit now, pre-op but the lower end is similar. But I have been training a lot, so maybe I just have reached the same status in the upper range as Jenny did post op with the exercises. But it is hard to hit anything up there, I imagine with VFS it may be easier...

[AmyBerlin]

Dear Anja,

Actually I am a bit amazed that Jenny shows in that graph that her highest pre op note was a B4 only. I am at A5 if I push it a bit now, pre-op but the lower end is similar. But I have been training a lot, so maybe I just have reached the same status in the upper range as Jenny did post op with the exercises. But it is hard to hit anything up there, I imagine with VFS it may be easier...

Actually, B4 as highest frequency is pretty common for male larynges (pl. of larynx?) whose owners (male or female) haven't found whistle register, which the male voice needs to hit pitches higher than about C5. The female whistle register starts about an octave higher.

Amy

[anjaq]

Ah ok. Makes sense. I think I feel another switch similar to the one from chest to head voice somewhere in the range above 500 Hz, so I guess I am using whistling then to go up to that upper range. Thats why it is not really useable for anything, I guess.

[Rachelicious]

I'm posting this here, too, since I'm a Kim prospect and it has to do with the vocal break matter, which may interest others:

Dr. Kim notes my reading voice pattern to be moderately unstable: pitch instability, and a breathy voice with too much air escaping. Apparently it's the act of defying the way the voice wants to sound on its own that induces voice tremor - that going from chest voice to falsetto makes the voice break more pronounced. They assume the voice break will continue after VFS, but that with botox + if I adapt to my new vocal folds, the voice break is believed to improve.

This really seems to support the notion that it's our voice box musculature being used to working with thick, long vocal folds which causes tremor, and that it's not necessarily something innate or permanent. If this is the case, I feel a lot better about having VFS done, as the vocal break matter is one of the last things I've been concerned about. Truth be told, I actually 'can' cross that break, but because my voice is so breathy, there's a super-fine line between clocking the break and using not enough air to induce vibration. And that's almost certainly due to my voice feminization techniques.

As for the simple presence of tremor, I can reflect that in my first year or two post-transition, I had a good friend (choral expert) who noted one of my strengths was perfectly steady, straight-tone singing. The tremor / instability Dr. Kim notes in my voice are consistent with what I've noticed myself in recent years especially.

Thoughts?

[Teslagirl]

And thank you Amy for the tip about the vibrato. I'll try and sing the notes as straight as I can
Also I've practicing doing my old 110Hz voice consistently and it's not easy - I just instinctively keep bringing it up. I want to make sure Dr Kim realises just how low my 'natural' voice is.

The more I read about VFS at Yeson, the more confused I get! I have been controlling my voice for many years and I am in the female range in terms of pitch, although I think the quality of my voice doesn't sound totally female (though no-one ever notices). Do I need to get that long ago male voice back to demonstrate to Dr Kim how it sounded originally so he'll adjust my pitch enough? Or do I use my routine day to day (controlled) voice? I don't want an under-correction.