Transitioning is merely a choice

[taru]

IMNSHO and by definition, without the overwhelming need to transition that afflicts transsexuals, the person is not transsexual.

HBSOC seems to disagree with this. (and we get into semantics of overwhelming)

How would you classify person who transition yet whose need is not overwhelming? If they are not transsexuals what are they?

[tinkerbell]

IMNSHO and by definition, without the overwhelming need to transition that afflicts transsexuals, the person is not transsexual.

HBSOC seems to disagree with this. (and we get into semantics of overwhelming)

How would you classify person who transition yet whose need is not overwhelming? If they are not transsexuals what are they?

This is the answer I gave Asiangurlee yesterday:

But I would say that someone can choose to not transition but still suffers from gender identity disorder.

True, that person may suffer from some kind of GID, but obviously that GID isn't too strong for that person to be considered transsexual.

Transsexualism = Severe form of GID

Transsexualism is a severe form of GID, defined by an intense discomfort with one's assigned sex and with one's primary and secondary sex characteristics.  For people who suffer from profound GID, there's a conflict between the person's body and the person's psychological identity as male or female.

The above paragraph was extracted from this link:

http://www.glad.org/rights/me_ad_reg_mb_testimony.pdf

tink

As far as a definition word per se.  I don't know which will apply, perhaps "transgender" since this is an umbrella term that covers everyone who is gender variant.

tink

[taru]

Except by SOC only transsexuals are treated.

And this creates a loop. Everyone receiving treatment as per SOC is diagnosed as being TS. Non-TS TG inviduals should not be given treatment if SOC is followed. Now you may have other criterias for this, but isn't the "who is a TS" quite old (lots of threads about the issue)

ICD10 and HBSOC define transsexual (as do the site rules) and they do not include "overwhelming".

[TheBattler]

Grrr,

why are we bothering with this conversation.

Some people will transistion - some people will not. We each have individual choices to make, our own journey based on our beliefs, deires and emotions. I will not transistion as my GID is not great enough. The again next year when I get of my anti-depression meds I may re-think.

We are all different people. Lets support each other in their own goals without  trying to put our values onto other people.

Alice

[tinkerbell]

Except by SOC only transsexuals are treated.

And this creates a loop. Everyone receiving treatment as per SOC is diagnosed as being TS. Non-TS TG inviduals should not be given treatment if SOC is followed. Now you may have other criterias for this, but isn't the "who is a TS" quite old (lots of threads about the issue)

ICD10 and HBSOC define transsexual (as do the site rules) and they do not include "overwhelming".

We are discussing whether transition is a CHOICE among TS people.  A transsexual WILL transition.  If a person "chooses" not to transiton, then that person, IMO and by definition isn't TS.

4
Transsexualism (F64.0) has three criteria:
1. The desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied
by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through
surgery and hormone treatment;
2. The transsexual identity has been present persistently for at least two years;
3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality.

I think there was a little discussion about the "usually" part when the definitions were created here, but it was finally decided to keep it anyway.

BTW the above statement regarding who is and who isn't was made using the words IMHO.

tink

[Thundra]

Of course transitioning is a choice.  I DARE anyone to throw a brick. I triple dare you.

OK, now that, THAT nonsense is over, lets put it in context.

Everything in life is a choice, including staying alive. You can always choose suicide if that doesn't work for you.

Transitioning for GID afflicted people is a choice, but it is more akin to an ultimatum, ala:

Guy has a heart that is 90% obstructed, and he is only given a short-time to live.
He can choose to do nothing and die, or he can choose to take a treatment in the hopes that he will live.

Transitioning is a treatment alove all else. It keeps people alive. It doesn't solve all of the problems that person might have, but neither will an angioplasty for the guy in the analogy above. It is used by the medical community, and it must be valid, or they would quit using it as part of the treatment regimen. So, transitioning is not a lifestyle choice so much as it is part of a treatment regimen.

Now, there are plenty of people that can and will refuse treatment for any given medical condition. Or they may choose part of the treatment program and refuse others, like my Mother has done. People with a bad tooth might go in to have it taken care of, or they may wait until it is either falling out, or infecting the whole body. The choice seems simple, but for some people, the pain of the treatment is immediate and scares them into refusing the treatment, therefore making the problem much worse down the road. And nobody can make you do something that is good for you ~ i.e. transitioning ~ if you are afraid of the regimen.
The devil you know is safer than the devil you don't know, at least that is true for some people.

So, yes, transitioning is a choice. It is a choice for a better, healthier, safer life. It is a choice not to fall into the grips of the medical condition, and an attempt, a choice, to try and get better. It is also an acceptance of your condition. So, for some people, the inability to come to grips with their situation causes them to deny they have a life-threatening problem. Even when they are depressed and suicidal. It reminds me of my drinking days. You can't get help until you are able to admit that you have a problem and need help.

Most medical conditions are more easily overcome by younger folk. So, it is no surprise that when a person is diagmosed with this medical situation, that the younger the person is when they first seek treatment, the better the results are, and the more likely they will have a positive outcome. The older a person is when they first seek treatment, the more likely that the condition will have progressed in a negative fashion, and so it requires more agressive, expensive, and invasive care to get back to a positive outcome. Transitioning is no different.

Hopefully, someday, when all of the politics are squeezed out of the mix, then people can seek out and get treatment as it is needed, instead of when it can be afforded.

Of course, that is just my NSHO.

Throw a brick, and I will crush you like a bug.

[tinkerbell]

I found the largest brick, Thundra, but after reading your post.  I agree with most (not all) your points.  *hides brick for future use*

tink

[melissa90299]

Grrr,

why are we bothering with this conversation.

Because it is absolutely essential that the myth that transitioning is a choice be squelched. Thousands of women are forced to pay out if pocket for their transition because of the belief that transitioning is a "choice."

Some people will transistion - some people will not. We each have individual choices to make, our own journey based on our beliefs, deires and emotions. I will not transistion as my GID is not great enough. The again next year when I get of my anti-depression meds I may re-think.

I am not one to judge anyone else but the consensus seems to be that one of the essential elements of being a transsexual is the overwhelming desire to transition. One may not be able to because of health or finances, whatever but without that overwhelming feeling of dysphoria, I would question if that person is a  transsexual.

[Shana A]

We are discussing whether transition is a CHOICE among TS people.  A transsexual WILL transition.  If a person "chooses" not to transiton, then that person, IMO and by definition isn't TS.

I wish to thank both Thundra and Kristi for stating things far more eloquently than I'm able to.

Speaking from personal experience, I was diagnosed TS. I did over a year RLE (it was called RLT back in the dinosaur ages when I transitioned). I later made the even more difficult choice to not go any further, even though I was more happy as a woman than I've ever been as a man. I had many reasons for not continuing my transition, among them, couldn't get some doctors to treat me without health insurance, religious or spiritual beliefs that I was created as I am with this disjunct between mind and body for some reason unbeknown to me and maybe changing my body wasn't the right solution (for me, not anyone else), and finally that accepting myself as I am regardless of outward presentation is most important.

I disagree that the definition of TS is that one WILL transition, certainly the desire to do so is strong, and I still sometimes wonder years later whether I should try again. The condition of being gender variant isn't a choice, no question about that, I've known that since I was a child, however whether we decide to transition, or kill ourselves, or live with depression, or find Jesus or Yahweh or Buddha... these are choices that we make.

OK, those bricks that you didn't throw at the others, I've changed into my stylish armor 

zythyra

[Suzy]

Except by SOC only transsexuals are treated.

And this creates a loop. Everyone receiving treatment as per SOC is diagnosed as being TS. Non-TS TG inviduals should not be given treatment if SOC is followed. Now you may have other criterias for this, but isn't the "who is a TS" quite old (lots of threads about the issue)

ICD10 and HBSOC define transsexual (as do the site rules) and they do not include "overwhelming".

We are discussing whether transition is a CHOICE among TS people.  A transsexual WILL transition.  If a person "chooses" not to transiton, then that person, IMO and by definition isn't TS.

4
Transsexualism (F64.0) has three criteria:
1. The desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied
by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through
surgery and hormone treatment;
2. The transsexual identity has been present persistently for at least two years;
3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality.

I think there was a little discussion about the "usually" part when the definitions were created here, but it was finally decided to keep it anyway.

BTW the above statement regarding who is and who isn't was made using the words IMHO.

tink

My dearest Tink, with whom I so rarely disagree,  go ahead and get that brick out.  You'll need it.  But please make it big enough to put me out of my misery when you use it.

Using this part of the SOC, what do you call this person (using the corresponding numbers)?

1. The desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatment;

The person wants this badly and spends as much time as possible in that role.  The person wants desperately to have HRT and surgery, and to transition, but cannot at present for a variety of reasons, chief among them being medical.  Conditions may or may not ever improve.

2. The transsexual identity has been present persistently for at least two years;

The person has had this struggle for over 40 years, has tried to suppress it, but the feelings intensify with each occurrence, to the point where the struggle is now constant and nearly unbearable.

3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality.

Quite the opposite, the disorder has been shown to be the source of other secondary disorders.

OK, go ahead and diss this person because they have not transitioned.  (The standards don't, by the way, if you read them carefully.)  This person does not have the choice of transitioning.  Not at this time, anyway, and perhaps never.  And she is so envious of those who can.  So everyone go ahead and start lobbing the bricks.  Make it a party and enjoy the hurling!  Those splats and crunches will inspire some uproarious laughter.  I happen to know she won't mind.  It would be a huge relief if they are big enough and thrown hard enough.  How do I know?  If you haven't figured it out, I'm talking about myself.

Kristi

[Melissa]

3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality.

Quite the opposite, the disorder has been shown to be the source of other secondary disorders.

Source and symptom are quite the opposite.  A symptom is caused by another source.  This is merely to specify that the GID is not caused by something like Disassociative Identity Disorder (Multiple personalities).

[Suzy]

3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality.

Quite the opposite, the disorder has been shown to be the source of other secondary disorders.

Source and symptom are quite the opposite.  A symptom is caused by another source.  This is merely to specify that the GID is not caused by something like Disassociative Identity Disorder (Multiple personalities).

Melissa, that was precisely my point.  Thanks, hot chick!

Now, I keep hearing that this is a definition thing.  I have read the SOC.  Where did I miss this?  Will someone please quote the part that says "a TS WILL transition"?

BTW here is what I have been considering authoritative:
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~colem001/hbigda/hstndrd.htm

Is there a newer version of which I am not aware?

Thanks!

Kristi

[tinkerbell]

Will someone please quote the part that says a TS WILL transition?

Thanks!

Kristi

Didn't you receive the quote you requested via PM?   >

tink

P.S.  Time to do something more fun.  Good night. 

[Suzy]

Will someone please quote the part that says a TS WILL transition?

Thanks!

Kristi

Didn't you receive the quote you requested via PM?   >

tink

P.S.  Time to do something more fun.  Good night. 

A little medical knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Did you hear about the latest study that proved now that milk is hazardous to your health?  They fed laboratory rats a quart of milk an hour and guess what happened..... they exploded!  So milk is hazardous to out health.

I'm afraid that is more scientific than what Tink sent me, even though it was good for a laugh.

I agree, time for bed.

Kristi

[Suzy]

Kristi, out of curiosity, why do you think everyone's ready to condemn you because you haven't physically transitioned? Is this fear about how we feel or about you feel?

Gina, thanks for the flowers!  Actually, we have had this discussion before a number of times.  I know the majority of opinions are not what I personally share.  Now I'm kind of sorry I let myself get sucked into this again.  It just irks me when people talk about what some great authority says, when really it does not.  No problem, I am proceeding off to take my pill:



Kristi

[almost,angie]

 Choice???  I have no choice at all. If I can`t have hope of transition , I want to die now at this moment. Way would I go from our "so called" normal excepting strait family relationship I have with Carla to a gay relationship with Carla ( hopefully) Strait men are veawed like first class citizens. Gay women are more like 3rd.
  It`s not a choice

[Butterfly]

Good for a joke.  Allow me to laugh ~laugh~ if not joke, implausibly insolent & insulting to transsexual women.  Plus a good reason for insurance companies to waive genital reconstruction surgery from their formularies.

[katia]

it's a choice for someone that isn't a transsexual.  being who you are is never easy.  it is either this or that.  it can't be both.

[Anaya]

If I can`t have hope of transition , I want to die now at this moment.

wasnt that right now a choice? you chose an alternative way, as i said it will hurt you, but its still a choice

Thats how things get chosen. one option is bad/horrible and the other is better/great.

well everyone seems to have a different definition of choice
i like to think that im somewhat in control of my life. There are strong feelings that might make me act in some way but i always have the choice to act in a completely other manner.

[MeganRose]

I have no issue with saying I chose to transition.

I chose to transition the same way that I chose to abuse drugs, and both were for almost the same reason. I was in pain living my life the way I was living it. I wanted to be happy, I wanted something to take the pain away.  I chose drugs first. Perhaps intoxicating myself continuously, day in day out, would ease the pain, make me think of something else, not let the pain rule me like it was beginning to. For a while it worked. I felt happy.

Inevitably though, it stopped working. The pain was still there in the background, and kept coming back to the foreground every time I sobered up. And it was affecting my health, and ways my pain was not doing on its own. I realised my choice of how to deal with my pain was a bad one. So I made a concious choice to stop trying to treat my pain with chemicals, and to transition with the hope of my pain going away once and for all. And that turned out to be a good choice.

I chose to live my life as a woman. I chose to see a therapist to get my HRT letters, I chose to change my name, I chose to wear the clothes and makeup and style my hair in a way acceptable to the general public as to what a woman should do so I would be better accepted by them as a woman. I didn't choose to be transsexual - I chose to live my life as a woman in happiness instead of live as a man full of pain and torment.

I'm going to chance an analogy here: you don't choose to be hungry, but you do have a choice of what to eat. You can eat the food that makes you feel healthy and fulfilled, or you can eat the food that will give you food poisoning and cause you to spend the better part of the evening vomiting. Just because one of the options seems completely irrational to you doesn't mean that you don't have a choice.

And because it's probably going to come up, judging by some of the previous replies, if you feel the sudden need to reply to my post by claiming that I mustn't be a transsexual because I can see that I had a choice to do what I did, keep it to yourself. I know what I am, I'm not deluding myself, please don't feel the need to point out to me that I am. I'm completely comfortable with the idea that, as a rational human being, I made a rational choice to make my life experience less painful and more fulfilling to me. And I fail to understand how that could offend anybody. I chose to be happy. Why not be happy for me?

Megan