passing or politeness?

[Nati]

This is an important thing to bring up, but I want to point out that some situations exist in which you can tell with almost absolute certainty if you have passed (usually, visually). Street harassment from males is one of them, particularly when you are walking near to the men in question. If you are not passable, you are not going to get catcalled the way a passable (though usually also attractive) ciswoman might; you will get silence, mockery, or abuse of some kind. Because the kind of men who harass women like this usually come from a social sphere in which heteronormativity is prized above all else, these men will usually be careful to either not catcall you if you are unpassable or, if they 'make a mistake,' to immediately verbally abuse you afterwards to 'correct' the mistake, so as not to 'lose face' amongst their crew.

You can also make an educated guess about passing in retail situations if you enter a store that is either all for (cis)women or that has historically barred transwomen from entering dressing rooms, and you ask to go to the women's dressing room to try on clothes. If you are let in without a second glance or anything unusual, you're probably passing. Beyond that, if you pay for your clothes at the cashier's and she or he is treating you normally until you speak, and then they do a kind of double-take, this means you passed prior to speaking, or you at least had not fully confirmed a suspicion they may have had.

So some situations do exist in which you can tell. But it is unfortunate that some people are polite to our faces and arses behind our backs. Transphobia is still far, far too commonplace, but I think a lot of it will disappear as trans* issues become more and more internationally visible.

I live in country/city where street harassment or catcalling almost non exist, we have the type of guys you described but they never catcalling woman i public, never.

People always refer to me as she, even if i need to go as male sometimes in totally male clothes ( i really hate that! ) for blood tests for example, they call me ma'am when i talk with them even when i show my id where is still my male name and surname 80% of them still call me ma'am, so maybe i'm passable, maybe.... but not in my head, when i look at myself i'm totally unpassable and i hate that feeling...
So i guess most important to us is to get "passable" to ourselfs not to the others... maybe...

[stephaniec]

I'm sorry, but for whatever reason , rationality, quandary etc., this topic no matter how it is phrased reduces to do you want to heal yourself or are you too afraid to heal yourself because of how your perceived .

[Jennygirl]

I am not asking whether we should accept the fact that we pass or not. I am NOT asking if anyone is happy about not passing. Again, the topic is about misinterpreting politeness for passing. Whether you care or not, is a completely different topic. We live in a society and we have to be practical. We can say that we are all beautiful human beings, we are all fantastic, we should love ourselves and all those beautiful lines, but the reality is that an employer won't hire a non-passable transsexual for a retail job, in most cases. Yes, there will be exceptions. So, passing is very important. Passing means not creating a subconscious avulsion in the observer.

The point of this post is about raising awareness on politeness and being realistic and level headed. What I mean by that is that if you go to a doctor and they ask you if you are pregnant, that does NOT mean you are passing as a female, necessarily. If a clerk calls you ma'am that does NOT mean you can rest on your laurels and brag about passing.

All depends on your definition of "passing". It varies person to person, and that is why you are getting answers that differ from your own.

I tend to define it as you do, but I don't assume that the next person holds the same opinion. And to be honest (as I progressed through transition) my own definition of the term changed a lot.

[stephaniec]

I'm sorry, I don't quite get the point your making. So, what does it mean to "not pass" , but to made to feel you "pass" by kind individuals who believe they don't want you to feel bad. What's the purpose of that knowledge. I suppose that maybe if you think the knowledge would help you change something of your presentation , I guess it's beneficial . That's if it's possible to change what's not making you' pass' in someone else's eyes. It's just that I'm very triggered by the notion of "passing". It's realistic to want people to be honest , so you can understand your own perception. The problem is that everyone perceives differently. I just don't understand the point of worrying about  some kind of objective reality vs. kindness. What's the benefit to that knowledge. Why the question. I guess what I'm wondering is what's wrong with kindness. Unless your decision as to what to do on transitioning has to do on whether your seen objectively as the gender you want people to perceive you as then I guess it be beneficial  to have brutal honesty. I'm sorry , I'm just trying to understand the question.

[Jennygirl]

I'm sorry, I don't quite get the point your making. So, what does it mean to "not pass" , but to made to feel you "pass" by kind individuals who believe they don't want you to feel bad. What's the purpose of that knowledge.

Same boat when it comes to passing vs politeness. In the end, the person either sees you and respects you or they don't.

I think what she is subliminally trying to touch on is the social stigma that still exists for trans people in today's culture, whether they pass or not. These are the things we are currently working through as a community to help de-stigmatize the culture. And, it is getting better- slowly but surely.

[kittenpower]

I don't think that people gender someone correctly, because they don't want them to "feel bad", I think they do it out of respect.  I always get addressed with the proper pronouns, so even if people know I'm trans, it's ok, because they are showing me the respect that I deserve.

[Rejennyrated]

Also, in my experience, it is not true that people will treat you the same of a cis woman even if they know you are trans. That doesn't happen that way, sorry. In fact, no matter how liberal people are, they still don't buy us for women

Gotta disagree totally with this - although I accept that it may differ from one country (and perhaps even social class) to another, so it may be true for where you live perhaps.

However here in the UK, and as a well estabished and extremely well connected member of the upper middle class, I can tell you with absolute 100% certainty that VAST VAST majority of upper class and middle class people will treat you EXACTLY the same whether they know your background or not, because under our upper and upper middle class social value system it would reflect INCREDIBLY badly on them if they did anything less! it's just not cricket to do what you suggest at all.

Yes I am incredibly privileged and yes some aspects of my experience of life may well be unfairly easy compared with many, but I'm not bragging about them to make people feel bad, but to demonstrate that sweeping statements like "that doesent happen that way sorry" are in fact overly negative - because actually there are social groups and places in the world where we are pretty well accepted on equal terms. So I hold that out as a beacon of hope that actually things CAN be different because they already are in some places.

PS I dont know if it has any bearing on this or not - but of course the first two modern cases of SRS were done on minor members of the British Aristocracy (Michael Dhillon in 1950 and Roberta Cowell in 1951 - both operations performed by Sir Harold Gillies) so perhaps we've had a bit longer to get used to this sort of thing...

[teresita]

"I can tell you with absolute 100% certainty that VAST VAST majority of upper class and middle class people will treat you EXACTLY the same whether they know your background or not, because under our upper and upper middle class social value system it would reflect INCREDIBLY badly on them if they did anything less! it's just not cricket to do what you suggest at all."

So you are saying that heterosexual guys will date you and treat you exactly like a genetic woman? All things being equal, you are saying that a guy is going to date you openly, treat you like a gg, introduce you to his family and friends? Since you state that they treat you no differently than any other woman, that implies that you have the exact same opportunities of your clone/twin who is XX instead of XY.

And to the other poster who said that I am subliminally touching upon the stigma about not passing, yes, I am doing exactly that. You are correct.

[teresita]

I will just add something. I am sick and tired of having to explain to people, being the source of scrutiny. I just want to have a peaceful life. Period. I know that passing walking down the street is one thing, but the more time people spend with someone, the more they'll realize that we are trans. Nothing wrong with that, but, deluding oneself that you are passing when you are not, is a recipe for disaster. A trans woman who wrote a book said that the right approach is to go out and assume EVERYBODY knows we are trans. This way, we avoid disappointment when someone confronts or says something hurtful about our trans status. That approach is good. However, if people are kind to me, I do not imply that I am passing. I appreciate their politeness, but I do not fool myself into thinking that I am passing. That being said, the thing about passing is about my identity and sense of self. Like I said, I want to have a peaceful life and I am exhausted of explaining. Period. In fact, whenever the topic of my transness came up, even well intentioned people violated my privacy with intimate questions: "do you still have a penis>?" "can you orgasm>" "oh, wait, so you can't have kids"> I am not here to satisfy any pervert's curiosity. Or they want to see my picture when I was a man. Who needs that? I certainly don't. If you don't care, kudos to you. I care and I want to pass. Should I be criminalized for desiring to pass?

[Girl Beyond Doubt]

Part of my way of passing is making it as easy as possible for the people who encounter me to be polite and acknowledge me as a woman.
I show them my commitment, my confidence, my happiness.
Knowing that I am trying to make it easy for them helps me assume that they do not need to put too much effort into making me feel like I am passing.
This is my answer to the original post. It works for me, and it really does not need to be any more complicated than that for me.

[Pebblez]

I would like to ask generally when people present female but aren't yet passing don't others usually use male pronouns? I mean politeness would carry over to that situation wouldn't it?

[Mariah]

Sometimes and yes and sometimes no. It depends on who you are dealing with. Some will call anything that doesn't look exactly like the image they have in their mind of woman a male so I wouldn't read to much into that fact if people are being polite or not because CIS woman get misgendered all the time. I had to correct someone today on that in regards to my mom. Hugs
Mariah

I would like to ask generally when people present female but aren't yet passing don't others usually use male pronouns? I mean politeness would carry over to that situation wouldn't it?

[Cindy]

I think this topic has been well and truely been discussed to finality and there is little point in keeping it going.

Locking