Do you think people are honest in the passing threads? And do you see a problem?

[Tori]

Like Cindy said, looking pretty does not a woman make.

I do think seeming female can help though, part of that is attitude, part is presentation, part is behavior, part is voice.

The need to look good is a personal one, and genetics, as well as the opinions of others are what ultimately decide what looks good.

If looking good, or at least better, didn't matter at all, why do all societies, sexes, and/or genders have the occasional FORMAL event? Why do soldiers have dress uniforms? Why does the Pope wear that hat? Why do football players wash their uniforms between games, when they are just going to get dirty? Why do men shave, or trim their beards? Why doesn't the president of the US wear gym shorts when he delivers the State of the Union Address? Why do actors wear tuxedos to The Oscars?

Every item of Western clothing or fashion worn today by women was first worn by men... except for the bra and g string. Dresses, makeup, skirts, heels, wigs...

It is no surprise to me that people wish to look better, and seek out feedback at a place like this from time to time. Heck, it is even fun to do, especially when it doesn't take so durn long.

[Miss_Bungle1991]

I tend to stay out of those types of threads. Usually, if I have posted a pic of myself, it had more to do with showing off my Portia shirt instead of asking if I passed or not. I tend to judge how I am treated when I am out and about rather than what someone on a trans forum thinks. I've had some people tell me that I looked too masculine and I would just roll my eyes at such a statement. Sure, I don't kid myself about any of this, I DO look andro from time to time but that is just the way it goes. I'm never going to fit the stereotypical view of what is beautiful and I don't care about that at the end of the day. How things go out in the world carry far more weight in my opinion.

[antonia]

I'm actually surprised by the amount of backlash, first off the threads are usually "Can I pass", not "Am I a 9 or a 10" or even "Do I pass".

I think almost anyone can pass assuming we dress and behave appropriately. When I reply to one of these posts I'm not thinking does that picture pass, I'm thinking can the person pass with everything else in place.

If possible I try to  provide constructive criticism, e.g. get rid of the stubble and drop the sheer red dress for a conservative black dress to assist others in getting all their ducks in a row.

Perhaps the threads should be renamed to "What do I need in order to pass?" in order to remove any confusion.

[Nero]

Usually, if I have posted a pic of myself, it had more to do with showing off my Portia shirt instead of asking if I passed or not.

Like your style! 

[Miss_Bungle1991]

Like your style! 

Well, that's just the way it is. I've met enough people that didn't know me at all that had no idea that I was trans and I've also had people question others as to what I was.

Meh...that's the way that the cookie crumbles.

And Portia RULES!

Oh yeah......

[f_Anna_tastic]

I definitely stay out of these threads.  I just don't want to hurt someone's feelings.  I have seen lots of pictures where, to the eye which knows which markers to look for,  the person definitely does not pass yet they receive overwhelmingly fake messages saying 'total pass'  etc. I think it just removes all value.  My mother taught me that if I don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all.

[Mermaid]

[RosieD]

I have absolutely no opinion to express about the threads because I never visit the threads because if I did visit the threads I would receive a lifetime ban for the things I would say. Not because I would be commenting on what anyone said nor about anyone asking "how do I look? " on there but because I find the mindset that I perceive would lead someone to ask that question a little challenging to understand.

Rosie

[Alaia]

When I post in that thread I usually preface it with "please be brutally honest, I can take it" because otherwise I just can't trust the feedback. However I do expect criticisms to be constructive rather than "Well honestly, you look like ->-bleeped-<-."

[FalseHybridPrincess]

Everyones idea of a man and a woman looks is different

but yeah sometimes im in the passing thread , I see a person who is not even close to passing
and everyone is like "yeah you look amazing" etc etc

I think we should be a little more honest

also the phrase "hormones work magic" is being used way too often...

[Sephirah]

Are we seriously going to close down a thread just because we're so emotionally fragile that a simple negative experience with our appearance is enough to make us question our very worth as human beings?

That's a pretty important point. I'm not sure that, at least for some people who ask in threads about passing, an experience with appearance is all it is. Like Kate said, some people are pretty vulnerable and perhaps have far more tied up in asking the question than just their appearance. I think that for some, maybe just for a few, wanting to know if they pass relates to more than how they look. And answers they receive or don't receive in these threads go some way towards validating their identity. That a negative, or lack of response actually does impact detrimentally on their sense of worth, or their sense of self. The subtext of the question "Do I pass" might actually be "Do you think I am who I say I am?". It's hard to know, though, because a lot remains unsaid. Forums aren't the ideal medium for nuance and reading between the lines. But I would say it's a possibility.

[Adam (birkin)]

I said that I feel people are too optimistic. I don't believe most people lie, I think they just try to find the most positive features about someone.

I personally don't lie. If I think someone would pass, I mean it. If I don't think they pass, I either don't say anything (if they're just flat out too early in transition to pass, period), or I say something that I hope will be constructive (when I see why they don't pass - if it's one or two things).

[Chic]

Everyones idea of a man and a woman looks is different

but yeah sometimes im in the passing thread , I see a person who is not even close to passing
and everyone is like "yeah you look amazing" etc etc

I think we should be a little more honest

also the phrase "hormones work magic" is being used way too often...

Hormones work magic depending on the person, hence YMMV. For some people, it will have drastic effects, and for others it will passively change them. Hormones do work. Magic is the question. Considering most of the after pictures have makeup and wigs/done up hair and are taken after shaving or having gotten laser/electrolysis is doing little to present the true effects of hormones to people. I don't know anyone who wakes up looking like a supermodel.

[Jessica Merriman]

I said that I feel people are too optimistic. I don't believe most people lie, I think they just try to find the most positive features about someone.

I personally don't lie. If I think someone would pass, I mean it. If I don't think they pass, I either don't say anything (if they're just flat out too early in transition to pass, period), or I say something that I hope will be constructive (when I see why they don't pass - if it's one or two things).

I feel this sums up what the passing threads should be all about.

[Kimberley Beauregard]

I'm actually surprised by the amount of backlash, first off the threads are usually "Can I pass", not "Am I a 9 or a 10" or even "Do I pass".

I think almost anyone can pass assuming we dress and behave appropriately. When I reply to one of these posts I'm not thinking does that picture pass, I'm thinking can the person pass with everything else in place.

If possible I try to  provide constructive criticism, e.g. get rid of the stubble and drop the sheer red dress for a conservative black dress to assist others in getting all their ducks in a row.

Perhaps the threads should be renamed to "What do I need in order to pass?" in order to remove any confusion.

I agree with this, and pretty much what I was aiming for when I posted in that thread.

[Ms Grace]

Is it lying or is it encouragement? Like others, I actively avoid commenting in that thread...how could I ever be the judge if someone is passable based on a couple of pics? Someone might be gorgeous but have the mannerisms of the worst chauvinist pig ever. They might walk like a construction worker. They might sound like Barry White with a cold. They might look great but are clueless about what's needed to pass. Conversely, maybe they don't look great at all, you'd look at the pics and think "never in a million years"...but I could never say that because I know someone who is trans* is in utter pain; a woman in a male body who doesn't need or want to hear "forget it".

Besides, if the a Before & After thread teaches us anything it's that transformations of the most amazing magnitude are possible - whether it be through HRT, make up, wig, posture, clothes, presentation, attitude, voice training, boobs, confidence, FFS surgery or whatever, so many of our sisters have gone from "no way" to "OMG".

Maybe the question should be "could I pass looking like this?" - most of the time the answer would be no. Too depressing and discouraging for many. Perhaps "what can I do to pass considering this is how I look now?"...the answers might be more constructive.

Passing isn't just about looks, and typically we get way too caught up in that factor. There are cis women out there who don't really look like women at all and yet they are treated as women. Being a woman - trans or cis - is about the whole package, not just looks. If anyone wants to pass they may need to do a lot of work, physical and behavioural, but ultimately it's about being confident and convincing.

Sisters, stare down the doubters and naysayers - be the woman you want to be.

[sad panda]

post about being inspired by before & after [snipped for vicki]

I would take that with a grain of salt though... it's hard to tell if someone passes just from pictures. They don't give the same impression as real life.

[Mermaid]

In my own experiences, people have mainly said they're jealous of my appearance, and a lot of the times there is immense honesty in jealousy. It's one thing to call someone beautiful but it's another to bring yourself to actually proclaim to someone that you're jealous.

Uhm... I think this quote might be an example of why that thread's sometimes bad. Some of the responses I see have to be exaggerations.

I mean, for someone who will never stand a chance at "passing", people should just compliment the actual good physical traits that said person has. Don't call them beautiful, don't tell them they'll pass and throw sand in their eyes, but make them feel good about something. This keeps their expectations realistic and reinforces their self-esteem.

The problem I mostly see is with people who're young, new to their transsexualism, that come and post their pictures in boy-mode. If there's anything remotely feminine about their face, they're automatically assured and reassured that they will pass. It's good to boost their self-esteem, but this is also going to push them towards transition with certain expectations... and nobody, I mean nobody, can say for sure that those expectations will be met. How is that person going to feel once he/she realises that it's not that easy, that the responses he/she got in this board differ from people's reactions in real life? What if years into transition, they end up regretting it because they simply don't like how they ended up looking like? That's the real problem.

Saying nice things is good, but people with low self-esteem are more prone to be affected and influenced by what you have to say, they're in a vulnerable position. So yes, be kind, but don't raise false hopes on people. That's the way I feel about it, at least.

[Tori]

I would take that with a grain of salt though... it's hard to tell if someone passes just from pictures. They don't give the same impression as real life.

If you think I post my worst pictures here... Ha! I post the 1 in 100 that I actually like. I know I am not the only one.

[Evelyn K]

Here's a thought. Maybe we *need* to bring out a dose of reality so we don't have people dig themselves further into a hole that will be worse than living As Assigned at Birth.

Why am I feeling sorry for people and their decisions again?