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Society's cruel message to women (or my apology and explanation)

Started by Nero, April 17, 2014, 03:19:53 PM

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Nero

Split this from the other thread. I didn't handle some other threads well and need to explain:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,163320.msg1405275.html#msg1405275

Quote from: Tori on April 17, 2014, 02:48:36 PM
You post at your own risk, even on a support site.

Imagine being over 25 and hearing some of the things said around here from time to time.

The internets can take some thick skin to handle, just like real life.

If you only wish to confirm your own beliefs, do not ask anyone else questions.


Is that a reference to me?  :laugh:
To be fair, I was a little too blunt about it. And I feel really bad about it. But I and many girls do get that message beaten into them (not literally). I don't want to derail the thread and I feel really awful about the way I presented it. But I really did hear and get the strong message at 18 that it was all downhill from there. And 25? Old. 30? Might as well be dead. I was being sarcastic in a lot of my posts. And I don't think I conveyed the message I was trying to - that this ageism against women is very limiting and disgusting. And I hate it. I can't pretend this wasn't programmed into me though.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Carrie Liz

See, this is just a continuing prevailing cultural problem, though, where girls are constantly judging their own self-worth on whether others think they're pretty or not. And that problem spills over into these vanity threads. Again, why are we not having these same issues with the FtM "Do I Pass?" threads? Doesn't that tell you something there? Maybe the MtF community, and females in general, just need to learn more that there's more to life and more to their self-worth than being pretty. That is really what we should be focusing on here. Why is it that when a girl whines about her problems, one of the first things that always comes up is that she feels "ugly?"

Come on, girls, grow some self-esteem for God's sake! Are we seriously going to close down a thread just because we're so emotionally fragile that a simple negative experience with our appearance is enough to make us question our very worth as human beings?

Maybe we need a "fight the beauty industry, patriarchal culture, and its objectifying standards of feminine worth" thread. Or maybe a "You Did Fabulous, Darling!" thread where people celebrate their triumphs and accomplishments that have nothing to do with beauty or passability.

We focus way too damned much on our appearance. Just saying.

My inner feminist is seriously screaming out in frustration at all of this constant drama.
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Nero

Quote from: Tori on April 17, 2014, 03:35:16 PM
If only sarcasm translated better into the written form...

I know. And I'm crying now just as when I read Carrie's reply to that other thread. Because I feel so bad about not handling it well. These issues - they're emotional for me. Because this is what I faced as a girl. And it was horribly and maybe lastingly damaging. I was ranting. When I realized it had all been taken the wrong way and that I had actually made women here feel bad? Believe me that I hated myself and cried and cried and cried.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Carrie Liz

Quote from: FA on April 17, 2014, 03:43:00 PM
I know. And I'm crying now just as when I read Carrie's reply to that other thread. Because I feel so bad about not handling it well. These issues - they're emotional for me. Because this is what I faced as a girl. And it was horribly and maybe lastingly damaging. I was ranting. When I realized it had all been taken the wrong way and that I had actually made women here feel bad? Believe me that I hated myself and cried and cried and cried.

Sorry, FA... my intent wasn't to hurt either. I just REALLY have a personal pet peeve about society de-valuing women if they're not young and pretty, and trans women questioning their worth after a certain age. So my inner feminist just got kind of ranty back there...

I'm serious, all through high school and college I've seen all of these girls that I was jealous of, all of these girls who were amazingly smart and talented, constantly de-value themselves and constantly question their own worth. So it's always been a pretty big trigger for me.
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Tori

FA, you have just really hit on some hot button issues in this forum lately including, female beauty, trans beauty, the expiration date of beauty, how beauty determines the value of women, a woman's intelligence is not valued, women get raped a lot, trans women get raped even more frequently, violence against women is frequent, violence against trans women is more frequent.

Such discussions in this forum tend to get locked no matter WHO makes them. Such discussions tend to hurt fragile feelings.

We are reminded time and again by other staffers how this is NOT a discussion forum it is a support forum... so these discussion threads, being posted by an Admin can be all kinds of awkward, especially for those of us who have been smited or otherwise reprimanded for being as damaged, curious, willing to share our opinions and discuss hot button issues as you.


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stephaniec

I don't know maybe my level of intelligence is not where it should be as far as understanding the argument here , but for the life of me I haven"t seen any thing that FA has said wrong. It's quite possible that I'm missing something in which case just ignore what I post , but I'm getting concerned that FA is beating himself over his head unjustifiably.
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Tori

The couple of things I saw that FA said wrong were mercifully deleted.

You are right though about him beating himself unjustifiably.

Everybody gets a post or two deleted from here if they post long enough.


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stephaniec

Quote from: Tori on April 17, 2014, 05:06:08 PM
The couple of things I saw that FA said wrong were mercifully deleted.

You are right though about him beating himself unjustifiably.

Everybody gets a post or two deleted from here if they post long enough.
thanks for the clarification I've been feeling exceptionally good lately and I didn't want to end up in the psyche ward for the night out of fear my brain had snapped
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Carrie Liz

At this point, it's all long in the past, and I vote that we all just give each-other a big hug and move on.


(Also, darn it, I was kind of hoping that my initial reply would stay in that other thread... 90% of that message was written in response to the debate over the "Passing" threads, and I feel like that self-worth message needs to be shared there. You're not going to be mad if I post it back over there, I hope?)
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Tori

Quote from: stephaniec on April 17, 2014, 05:11:14 PM
thanks for the clarification I've been feeling exceptionally good lately and I didn't want to end up in the psyche ward for the night out of fear my brain had snapped

Oh, night will come sooner than you think. Muahahahahaha!!!

:P


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stephaniec

Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 17, 2014, 05:11:41 PM
At this point, it's all long in the past, and I vote that we all just give each-other a big hug and move on.
yea, group hugs are the best
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sad panda

Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 17, 2014, 03:30:37 PM
See, this is just a continuing prevailing cultural problem, though, where girls are constantly judging their own self-worth on whether others think they're pretty or not. And that problem spills over into these vanity threads. Again, why are we not having these same issues with the FtM "Do I Pass?" threads? Doesn't that tell you something there? Maybe the MtF community, and females in general, just need to learn more that there's more to life and more to their self-worth than being pretty. That is really what we should be focusing on here. Why is it that when a girl whines about her problems, one of the first things that always comes up is that she feels "ugly?"

Come on, girls, grow some self-esteem for God's sake! Are we seriously going to close down a thread just because we're so emotionally fragile that a simple negative experience with our appearance is enough to make us question our very worth as human beings?

Maybe we need a "fight the beauty industry, patriarchal culture, and its objectifying standards of feminine worth" thread. Or maybe a "You Did Fabulous, Darling!" thread where people celebrate their triumphs and accomplishments that have nothing to do with beauty or passability.

We focus way too damned much on our appearance. Just saying.

My inner feminist is seriously screaming out in frustration at all of this constant drama.

I don't know, I don't think it's that easy. I'm still gonna judge my worth on my appearance until I actually can stop believing it's what matters to people. And maybe even after that just because I built my worth around that to begin with.

You can tell girls just to not care but they're prisoners of culture. From an age when they are too young to have serious opinions on anything at all. Of course it sinks in and of course it's hard to stop thinking about after that point.

I hear a lot of trans women say and believe they are pretty. It would be hard to honestly get the average cis girl to agree she is, and really believe it. There's a reason and it has nothing to do with them both being women. It's basically stockholm syndrome. (Instead, ask her what her bad features are and she'll have a list. Because to her, those are serious problems. It's not just a little tummy fat or a unique nose. It's being less than, in almost every way. It's her status. It's her place in the pecking order.)

That's just what I think... it is a real difficult problem to stop.
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suzifrommd

Quote from: FA on April 17, 2014, 03:43:00 PM
When I realized it had all been taken the wrong way and that I had actually made women here feel bad? Believe me that I hated myself and cried and cried and cried.

Isn't it lucky you're human and don't need to be perfect.

If you were perfect, I wouldn't want to be your friend. I'd much rather see compassion in my friends than perfection. And you have compassion in generous helpings.

You put some love in all your posts. If some of them go awry, it isn't because the love isn't there, it's because we all make mistakes and don't always see the consequences of our actions.

You were not malicious, you were wounded. It's ok to be wounded. It's part of the human condition.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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stephaniec

Quote from: suzifrommd on April 17, 2014, 05:30:23 PM
Isn't it lucky you're human and don't need to be perfect.

If you were perfect, I wouldn't want to be your friend. I'd much rather see compassion in my friends than perfection. And you have compassion in generous helpings.

You put some love in all your posts. If some of them go awry, it isn't because the love isn't there, it's because we all make mistakes and don't always see the consequences of our actions.

You were not malicious, you were wounded. It's ok to be wounded. It's part of the human condition.
I know I hae a major wound I'm trying to heal
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Nero

Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 17, 2014, 05:11:41 PM
At this point, it's all long in the past, and I vote that we all just give each-other a big hug and move on.


(Also, darn it, I was kind of hoping that my initial reply would stay in that other thread... 90% of that message was written in response to the debate over the "Passing" threads, and I feel like that self-worth message needs to be shared there. You're not going to be mad if I post it back over there, I hope?)

Sorry, I didn't realize.  :( Not mad at all.  :)
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Carrie Liz

Here's my parallel story, just so you can know that I'm coming from a point where I could be equally as bitter about the male experience.


Through my entire childhood, I was picked on and teased and made to feel like an outsider because I was weak, and emotional, and actually cared about women rather than being nothing but a walking sex-drive. (Yes, I actually did get teased for that.)

In 7th and 8th grade, those were the last years that I was openly myself. My voice hadn't changed, I had barely even started going through puberty, and I didn't want to. I loved singing soprano, I loved wearing short shorts, I was still watching cartoons and having 'secret clubs' with friends, I was shaving my legs as the hair started growing in, and you better believe I got teased a million times that year for being "gay" and a "->-bleeped-<-got" and wearing "daisy-dukes." Even my own friends teased me about that. And I was bullied like there was no tomorrow... people intentionally blocked me from getting into my locker every single day, stole my stuff and played "keep-away" with it, I got beaten up, and had to endure near-constant nasty treatment from people.

And when I asked my own therapist and my own Mom about it, how to end the teasing, the response was always something along the lines of "man up." So I was basically taught that the only way to stop people making fun of me, was to stop being different, and to become just as mean, uncaring, masculine, and tough as them.

And, well, unfortunately, I reached a point where I felt like I had no options but to listen. In high school, I stifled myself. I stopped wearing the clothes that I wanted. My voice changed, and I was devastated. I had to stop shaving my legs to avoid teasing, stop being open about my love of Pokemon and Sailor Moon to avoid teasing, hide any and every sign of gender conflict in my head, hide my true emotions, and basically just willfully stopped showing any signs of my internal gender conflict even though by this point I was absolutely screaming on the inside, to the point where I was failing classes because I felt so horrible about myself.

And every single day, I had to look at all of the guys around me playing this macho game, and I just HATED them. I hated how they acted tough, I hated how they used stupid stunts as some kind of proof of their manliness, I hated how they had to act completely emotionless, I HATED HATED HATED how they treated women like s*** and treated them like objects to be screwed and then dumped. I wanted to freaking strangle every single one of them and be like "you're a complete and total A**HOLE!!! I'm embarrassed to be considered a member of the same gender as you, you inconsiderate jerk!" And I was so bitter about how men had no right to express themselves, and niceness in them wasn't even rewarded, it was jerkiness that was rewarded, while girls could at least be tomboys in addition to being a stereotypical girl, while there was no male equivalent whatsoever. I seriously thought, how could ANYONE want to be a man? How the hell do they live with themselves?"

Basically, I was the equivalent of a man-hating radical feminist at that point.

And am I still bitter about this? Yes! Do I still seriously not understand how people could actually enjoy being male? To some degree, yes. I still have a bit of a hard time looking at the FtM "Before and After" thread, because I see people turning from a gender I admire into a gender I'm still bitter about. And every single damned time I heard my male co-workers at the Horseshoe bragging about their Vegas sex-escapades last year, I just wanted to scream.

The thing is, though, over time, I have mostly learned to get over it. I learned to filter out comments from people who I realized I hated anyway. Why was I letting these opinions and these expectations get to me if I didn't want to? I finally learned that I had the freedom to define my own self worth, and that I should quit letting others' expectations get to me so much. I started hanging out with my own kind... nerdy tomboyish girls who didn't care about society's standards of beauty and defined themselves by their talents and ideas, and guys who still enjoyed "childish" things and really didn't care about living up to some dudebro standard of masculinity. They do exist. And although I still remained in denial about my gender identity for years after that, getting in with that more neutral nerdy crowd who don't give two s***s about their popularity really helped me.

So again. We've both been hurt and disenfranchised by the societal expectations of our birth genders. I just feel a very strong activist-like sense of "It doesn't have to be this way. We can change this. I learned to define my own self-worth, so surely I can help others do the same."

I know I'm not completely over this either, though. I have so many emotional breakdowns in my blog it's ridiculous. And you've seen it.
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stephaniec

Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 17, 2014, 06:17:38 PM
Here's my parallel story, just so you can know that I'm coming from a point where I could be equally as bitter about the male experience.


Through my entire childhood, I was picked on and teased and made to feel like an outsider because I was weak, and emotional, and actually cared about women rather than being nothing but a walking sex-drive. (Yes, I actually did get teased for that.)

In 7th and 8th grade, those were the last years that I was openly myself. My voice hadn't changed, I had barely even started going through puberty, and I didn't want to. I loved singing soprano, I loved wearing short shorts, I was still watching cartoons and having 'secret clubs' with friends, I was shaving my legs as the hair started growing in, and you better believe I got teased a million times that year for being "gay" and a "->-bleeped-<-got" and wearing "daisy-dukes." Even my own friends teased me about that. And I was bullied like there was no tomorrow... people intentionally blocked me from getting into my locker every single day, stole my stuff and played "keep-away" with it, I got beaten up, and had to endure near-constant nasty treatment from people.

And when I asked my own therapist and my own Mom about it, how to end the teasing, the response was always something along the lines of "man up." So I was basically taught that the only way to stop people making fun of me, was to stop being different, and to become just as mean, uncaring, masculine, and tough as them.

And, well, unfortunately, I listened. In high school, I stifled myself. I stopped wearing the clothes that I wanted. My voice changed, and I was devastated. I had to stop shaving my legs to avoid teasing, stop being open about my love of Pokemon and Sailor Moon to avoid teasing, hide any and every sign of gender conflict in my head, hide my true emotions, and basically just willfully stopped showing any signs of my internal gender conflict even though by this point I was absolutely screaming on the inside, to the point where I was failing classes because I felt so horrible about myself.

And every single day, I had to look at all of the guys around me playing this macho game, and I just HATED them. I hated how they acted tough, I hated how they used stupid stunts as some kind of proof of their manliness, I hated how they had to act completely emotionless, I HATED HATED HATED how they treated women like s*** and treated them like objects to be screwed and then dumped. I wanted to freaking strangle every single one of them and be like "you're a complete and total A**HOLE!!! I'm embarrassed to be considered a member of the same gender as you, you inconsiderate jerk!" And I was so bitter about how men had no right to express themselves, and niceness in them wasn't even rewarded, it was jerkiness that was rewarded, while girls could at least be tomboys in addition to being a stereotypical girl, while there was no male equivalent whatsoever. I seriously thought, how could ANYONE want to be a man? How the hell do they live with themselves?"

Basically, I was the equivalent of a man-hating radical feminist at that point.

And am I still bitter about this? Yes! Do I still seriously not understand how people could actually enjoy being male? To some degree, yes. I still have a bit of a hard time looking at the FtM "Before and After" thread, because I see people turning from a gender I admire into a gender I'm still bitter about. And every single damned time I heard my male co-workers at the Horseshoe bragging about their Vegas sex-escapades last year, I just wanted to scream.

The thing is, though, over time, I have mostly learned to get over it. I learned to filter out comments from people who I realized I hated anyway. Why was I letting these opinions and these expectations get to me if I didn't want to? I finally learned that I had the freedom to define my own self worth, and that I should quit letting others' expectations get to me so much. I started hanging out with my own kind... nerdy tomboyish girls who didn't care about society's standards of beauty and defined themselves by their talents and ideas, and guys who still enjoyed "childish" things and really didn't care about living up to some dudebro standard of masculinity. They do exist. And although I still remained in denial about my gender identity for years after that, getting in with that more neutral crowd really helped me.

So again. We've both been hurt and disenfranchised by the societal expectations of our birth genders. I just feel a very strong activist-like sense of "It doesn't have to be this way. We can change this. I learned to define my own self-worth, so surely I can help others do the same."

I know I'm not completely over this either, though. I have so many emotional breakdowns in my blog it's ridiculous. And you've seen it.
I went through the exact thing you did , but yours seem to be a little bit rougher
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Nero

QuoteSo again. We've both been hurt and disenfranchised by the societal expectations of our birth genders. I just feel a very strong activist-like sense of "It doesn't have to be this way. We can change this. I learned to define my own self-worth, so surely I can help others do the same."

Well, I get that. But a lot of what I hear (not necessarily from you) is - 'just get over it'. Or the implications about not having being strong enough. Well, guess I wasn't. So, okay I was a weak kid who absorbed all this. Maybe I can't just get put aside. Maybe I need help and don't know how to get it. Or maybe I'm just irretrievably damaged.

And also, while I sympathize what you went through, it also feels like you're trying to counter what I posted. And this is the first time I ever posted what I went through, really. And I'm not saying it's worse than what AMAB kids went through. I'm saying it's what I went through.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Ltl89

FA,

You are obviously in pain and need to talk, but please understand that not everyone will share your views and that's okay.  For me, I never meant to disagree or invalidate your feelings on this topic.  In fact, I think you have many good points even if I don't fully agree.  Everyone's circumstances differ and one's individual perspective doesn't equal the "truth".  We all see things differently because we don't all have the same experiences.  What is horrible for one person, may be a gift for another compared to their feelings.  It doesn't make either view "true", it's just perspective when it comes down to it.  You are free to your's and their is no reason for us to argue over it.

Having said all that, while I don't want to debate your feelings, I would like to see you find peace with them..  I think the element of "you're right and I'm wrong" in these conversations which really are irrelevant here.  What's important is that you feel all of these things and they are effecting you.  How can we help you?  How can we help you cope with these dark feelings that you have?  How do we get you passed it?  Or at aid you in moving on to a healthier self view with less inner grief?

Fo starters, I think it would be helpful if you speak for FA and not for women.  Talk about yourself and your own feelings.  Open up about yourself instead of your gender or sex even if that plays a role in how you view yourself.

If you can't talk about that here in public, you know there are people that want to help in private. 
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Carrie Liz

I'm just having a hard time figuring out why you're just begrudgingly accepting how society treats women, and being bitter about it, rather than taking how badly you were treated as a battle cry to help change it. Maybe we're just different like that, I guess...

Anyway... sorry... I wasn't sharing my story to try and counter yours... that was my pathetic attempt at empathy, to show that I'd been through a lot of the same on the opposite side, and how I (mostly) got over it, to try and be inspiring. I guess I just have a hard time not having everything I post come across as some preachy message...
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