kind of confused about the standard I need to achieve.

[Ltl89]

As I've scrolled and read through this thread I've had a lot of emotions come to the surface. I've cried reading through much of it for the more I read, I felt almost like an outsider for the very first time since I've been a member here on Susan's. At least, in as far as the "passing" issue is concerned. The words above however have given me some comfort so Sad Panda, I thank you for them. I literally around 5 years ago even before hrt found it impossible for me to pass as male anymore. It's as if my body made the decision to go full time for me, yet I'd look at my face in the mirror and be so baffled why this had happened because to me I couldn't see it. I couldn't see what other people were seeing and during this early time for about 6 months I was so frightened and lived in fear some kind of cruel joke was being played on me, and I was in for a huge letdown. This probably sounds silly to all of you. And believe me even now 5 years later 4 months into my hrt and full transition this is still so hard for me to explain. Also I apologize if I'm off topic a little.

After around 6 months of living on pins and needles only leaving the house when I had to I slowly began to consider this a blessing, and though I already had a wardrobe that was about half & half, I boxed up every bit of male clothing I had and gave it to Goodwill some of it still with the tags on it, which I replaced with all female clothing. I've always been tiny (5-5, around 120) with a very slight bone structure, and long legged, short in the torso with narrow shoulders all my life. And also of course my being xxy (Klinefelter's) is the only thing I can think of to explain all of this. These days after being on hrt for 4 months I pass very easily and I myself feel facewise I look so much better than I did those years ago.

While reading your posts throughout this thread many of tears of sadness were mixed with those of realization that I must be very lucky to be able to pass so easily. That being said, I feel I really haven't understood until now what some of my sisters have to go through to achieve something that for me happens so easily..............  I'm sorry I have to stop here. This has hit me like a ton of bricks. Again, I apologize to all of you and the OP if I've went off topic.

Ally

Ally, we all have struggles that are unique to our own situation.  I realize that not passing as male was likely very hard for you at a time when it was socially expected.  And even though I constantly worry about passing, I realize those who were easily able to pass had issues of their own and struggles that I may not be able to relate with.  In many ways, we all have positives in our lives, but we all have negatives and hardships that we faced.  At the end of the day, I struggle with seeing my own blessings; however, this is a reminder that I really should make that effort.  I'm not as unpassable as I feel and it probably does hurt many people to hear me complain about it when I've been blessed in some ways.  Thank you for your post because it made me reflect on that.   

Op,

Forget about your own eyes, as we are tainted with major bias about ourseleves, do you pass in society?  How are people responding to you?  I think all of us place impossible standards on ourselves that we will always failt to meet.  With these expectations in mind, it's a bit hard to judge what really is there.  Other people don't have this issue when looking at us.  So, how do they usually gender you? 

I actually talked to my therapist about this the otherday.  She is trying to get me to see reality and no longer be plagued by my "idealized" self.   She wants me to see that it's possible to be pretty and passable without meeting impossible standards that we throw upon ourselves.  It's hard to get through and all, but I hope you will.  We shouldn't have to be this hard on ourselves and we should just be able to live without feeling so much internal and social pressure. 

[Ducks]

Op,

Forget about your own eyes, as we are tainted with major bias about ourseleves, do you pass in society?  How are people responding to you?  I think all of us place impossible standards on ourselves that we will always failt to meet.  With these expectations in mind, it's a bit hard to judge what really is there.  Other people don't have this issue when looking at us.  So, how do they usually gender you? 

I actually talked to my therapist about this the otherday.  She is trying to get me to see reality and no longer be plagued by my "idealized" self.   She wants me to see that it's possible to be pretty and passable without meeting impossible standards that we throw upon ourselves.  It's hard to get through and all, but I hope you will.  We shouldn't have to be this hard on ourselves and we should just be able to live without feeling so much internal and social pressure.

LTL, that is all I am trying to say, but you managed it in far fewer words, kudos! That last sentence is worth its weight in gold. 
"We shouldn't have to be this hard on ourselves and we should just be able to live without feeling so much internal and social pressure."  Carpe Diem

[sad panda]

As I've scrolled and read through this thread I've had a lot of emotions come to the surface. I've cried reading through much of it for the more I read, I felt almost like an outsider for the very first time since I've been a member here on Susan's. At least, in as far as the "passing" issue is concerned. The words above however have given me some comfort so Sad Panda, I thank you for them. I literally around 5 years ago even before hrt found it impossible for me to pass as male anymore. It's as if my body made the decision to go full time for me, yet I'd look at my face in the mirror and be so baffled why this had happened because to me I couldn't see it. I couldn't see what other people were seeing and during this early time for about 6 months I was so frightened and lived in fear some kind of cruel joke was being played on me, and I was in for a huge letdown. This probably sounds silly to all of you. And believe me even now 5 years later 4 months into my hrt and full transition this is still so hard for me to explain. Also I apologize if I'm off topic a little.

After around 6 months of living on pins and needles only leaving the house when I had to I slowly began to consider this a blessing, and though I already had a wardrobe that was about half & half, I boxed up every bit of male clothing I had and gave it to Goodwill some of it still with the tags on it, which I replaced with all female clothing. I've always been tiny (5-5, around 120) with a very slight bone structure, and long legged, short in the torso with narrow shoulders all my life. And also of course my being xxy (Klinefelter's) is the only thing I can think of to explain all of this. These days after being on hrt for 4 months I pass very easily and I myself feel facewise I look so much better than I did those years ago.

While reading your posts throughout this thread many of tears of sadness were mixed with those of realization that I must be very lucky to be able to pass so easily. That being said, I feel I really haven't understood until now what some of my sisters have to go through to achieve something that for me happens so easily..............  I'm sorry I have to stop here. This has hit me like a ton of bricks. Again, I apologize to all of you and the OP if I've went off topic.

Ally

Yeah, everyone has their own struggle. i think personally it would have been good for me to have been clocked a few times so i could get over the fear of a first time. I think it allowed me to make not passing into this horrifying thing that I certainly would never be able to tolerate. So it sounds weird, but in its own way it is actually very hard to cope with, having this problem that nobody can see or understand, that you don't feel able to talk about, feeling kind of freakish and in the dark but unable to reach out to anyone. And living a life everyone thinks you always lived.

Ofc however you get there... the bottom line is self acceptance. You will never feel good, passing or not passing, no matter what your identity is, if you haven't gotten to the point of saying, this is me, and what I am is okay, there is nothing wrong with me for being this way.

Btw, were you dxed kilnefelter's? That's not really something you can just identify without a karyotype, and unless you have super short genes it is very unlikely. Klinefelter's people actually grow tall. But, if you did have that, it would explain it, yah...

I did always ask myself why my body was the way it was... still really have no clue. I am severely underdeveloped for my genetic potential, and that kinda sucks. I wish I could be a tall, skinny boy. Then I wouldn't have transitioned either, so my life would be a lot different.. Instead I'm short and tiny and childish. Oh well though. Doesn't really matter why my body is this way, just happened, you know?

[Allyda]

Yeah, everyone has their own struggle. i think personally it would have been good for me to have been clocked a few times so i could get over the fear of a first time. I think it allowed me to make not passing into this horrifying thing that I certainly would never be able to tolerate. So it sounds weird, but in its own way it is actually very hard to cope with, having this problem that nobody can see or understand, that you don't feel able to talk about, feeling kind of freakish and in the dark but unable to reach out to anyone. And living a life everyone thinks you always lived.

Btw, were you dxed kilnefelter's? That's not really something you can just identify without a karyotype, and unless you have super short genes it is very unlikely. Klinefelter's people actually grow tall. But, if you did have that, it would explain it, yah...

I assume your asking me this: Yes, I was diagnosed with Klinefelters twice. I meet most all criteria physically with the exception of my being shorter than most. However it should be noted that I was originally 5-8 before my 91 aircraft accident destroyed my back. Now I have decimated discs, discs that no longer exist, fused vertebra, and a wonderful little thing called Spinal Stenosis that all together has made me lose 3 inches in height. However even at 5-8, I was still long legged, short in the torso, and all throughout my life very feminine in appearance. I also have super long eyelashes that, while they were a little thicker when I was younger, but even now eliminate my need for mascara. I've also known I was a girl since early childhood. As far as heredity goes I take after my biological Mom a lot and she wasn't very tall. I never knew my biological father and when I asked my Mom would only tell me he was Native American as she and I are (I was born on a Reservation). Unfortunately she was all the real family I had, and I lost her when I was 6 in a car accident.

Ally

[sad panda]

I assume your asking me this: Yes, I was diagnosed with Klinefelters twice. I meet most all criteria physically with the exception of my being shorter than most. However it should be noted that I was originally 5-8 before my 91 aircraft accident destroyed my back. Now I have decimated discs, discs that no longer exist, fused vertebra, and a wonderful little thing called Spinal Stenosis that all together has made me lose 3 inches in height. However even at 5-8, I was still long legged, short in the torso, and all throughout my life very feminine in appearance. I also have super long eyelashes that, while they were a little thicker when I was younger, but even now eliminate my need for mascara. I've also known I was a girl since early childhood. As far as heredity goes I take after my biological Mom a lot and she wasn't very tall. I never knew my biological father and when I asked my Mom would only tell me he was Native American as she and I are (I was born on a Reservation). Unfortunately she was all the real family I had, and I lost her when I was 6 in a car accident.

Ally

Oh okay, yep that would make sense then. I actually am different, I am 5'5 too but I have super short legs/short arms and a normal torso just a small waist and stuff, but ended up with a body that is ultimately hard to pass as male, so I guess that is why we had a similar experience.
I'm jealous of peeps with long legs though ;o; short fat legs are so unattractive lol.

That's really awful about your family. it sounds like it must have been really hard going thru transition without that support.

[Nero]

Oh okay, yep that would make sense then. I actually am different, I am 5'5 too but I have super short legs/short arms and a normal torso just a small waist and stuff, but ended up with a body that is ultimately hard to pass as male, so I guess that is why we had a similar experience.
I'm jealous of peeps with long legs though ;o; short fat legs are so unattractive lol.

Sounds like we got the same legs.  Mine are oddly muscular though, the calves have like huge round balls on them. Even before T and without working out. Hated them as a girl.

[Carrie Liz]

For those who didn't notice it, one of the ladies in the videos I posted earlier is transgender but if you listen to the voices, you could easily imagine two of them are. All of that to say that yes, our own conviction that we are women really does make a huge difference.

I seriously never would have noticed. When you first posted that video, I was seriously like "wait a minute, what the hell does that video have to do with convincing me that women come in all shapes and sizes? It's just three middle-aged women singing about being hip."

Kind of funny, I never noticed that one of them was trans until you actually told me, and then all of a sudden I went back and looked at her and suddenly I immediately noticed all of the cues... the long arms, the bigger shoulders, and the angular facial features. Had you not told me she was trans, I never would have known, but now that I do know, I can see it.

I guess that really is what happens with a lot of people... once you know that someone is trans, you can see their "flaws" as clear as day. Where your average everyday person who isn't specifically looking for masculine features, and is just taking you at face value with no knowledge of your history, probably doesn't.

This is pretty consistent with one of the few times that I've met a person that I believed was trans in the wide world of everyday life. She looked trans to me, but the more and more I heard her talk, the more and more I saw her interact with everyone at my poker table, the more doubts about it I got. Because she just seemed so well-assimilated and natural with everything she did. And not knowing her history for sure, I really couldn't say for sure in the end whether she was a trans woman or just a cis-woman with a lot of masculine features. It's really hard to tell unless you know someone's history for sure.

And that's the great part of life, is that absolutely nobody you meet out there in the wide world knows your history. So even if your transness is glaringly obvious, people have no way of knowing for sure. And frankly that's probably where a lot of the prolonged stares that we fear so much come from, is from people who are curious, trying to figure you out. It's not "hehe, look at the freak" like so many of us are afraid of, it's more curiosity.

[Allyda]

That's really awful about your family. it sounds like it must have been really hard going thru transition without that support.

Thank you, I really appreciate the sentiment. Almost 2 years after losing my Mom I was adopted off my reservation by my now adopted Mom who is still alive (though she's slowly finally coming around, she's very religeous [Baptist] & has a hard time with my transition). However, shortly after adopting me she married a man of Sicillian Italian descent. Things for me got really bad after that. I won't go into that though because I'd rather not repeat my other posts, and, it's very hard for me to talk about. I would however like to say this: My biological Mom was to me anyway a jewel of a person like no other. She never forced or pressured me to "be a boy," so to speak, and, I've no doubt had she lived she'd have went literally to hell and back to help me transition before puberty, or during so I wouldn't have been beaten up by any ugly T stick, lol! Again, Sad Panda I really thank you for your words. You have been very inspirational. Oh and I saw your photo's on another thread, and, for what it's worth, I saw a pretty younger woman. I loooved your hairstyle in those too.

Best wishes,

Ally

[sad panda]

Sounds like we got the same legs.  Mine are oddly muscular though, the calves have like huge round balls on them. Even before T and without working out. Hated them as a girl.

Ugh, yep! Mine too. Fat and muscular, and fat. We're talkin sell-yew-lite ;o; and the worst part is it can't even be starved away. Nothing works.. as a boy, i feel like a frog, not gonna lie. As a girl, at best I hear painting of venus. Like... classic... bottom heavy... not a twig like is in these days, and i wanna be a twig :/ or as a guy like... a beautiful gazelle. *runs off and browses thinspo*

Thank you, I really appreciate the sentiment. Almost 2 years after losing my Mom I was adopted off my reservation by my now adopted Mom who is still alive (though she's slowly finally coming around, she's very religeous [Baptist] & has a hard time with my transition). However, shortly after adopting me she married a man of Sicillian Italian descent. Things for me got really bad after that. I won't go into that though because I'd rather not repeat my other posts, and, it's very hard for me to talk about. I would however like to say this: My biological Mom was to me anyway a jewel of a person like no other. She never forced or pressured me to "be a boy," so to speak, and, I've no doubt had she lived she'd have went literally to hell and back to help me transition before puberty, or during so I wouldn't have been beaten up by any ugly T stick, lol! Again, Sad Panda I really thank you for your words. You have been very inspirational. Oh and I saw your photo's on another thread, and, for what it's worth, I saw a pretty younger woman. I loooved your hairstyle in those too.

Best wishes,

Ally

Thanks, that's pretty young boy to you though miss! ='P

Anyway, I'm really happy I could help. Thanks for sharing too. It sound like, even though your mom is not here, she'd be really happy for you. That is really special.

[Allyda]

Thanks, that's pretty young boy to you though miss! ='P

Anyway, I'm really happy I could help. Thanks for sharing too. It sound like, even though your mom is not here, she'd be really happy for you. That is really special.

Sorry about the Gender mistake. Thanks for those words about my Mom.

Ally

[stephaniec]

Ally, we all have struggles that are unique to our own situation.  I realize that not passing as male was likely very hard for you at a time when it was socially expected.  And even though I constantly worry about passing, I realize those who were easily able to pass had issues of their own and struggles that I may not be able to relate with.  In many ways, we all have positives in our lives, but we all have negatives and hardships that we faced.  At the end of the day, I struggle with seeing my own blessings; however, this is a reminder that I really should make that effort.  I'm not as unpassable as I feel and it probably does hurt many people to hear me complain about it when I've been blessed in some ways.  Thank you for your post because it made me reflect on that.   

Op,

Forget about your own eyes, as we are tainted with major bias about ourseleves, do you pass in society?  How are people responding to you?  I think all of us place impossible standards on ourselves that we will always failt to meet.  With these expectations in mind, it's a bit hard to judge what really is there.  Other people don't have this issue when looking at us.  So, how do they usually gender you? 

I actually talked to my therapist about this the otherday.  She is trying to get me to see reality and no longer be plagued by my "idealized" self.   She wants me to see that it's possible to be pretty and passable without meeting impossible standards that we throw upon ourselves.  It's hard to get through and all, but I hope you will.  We shouldn't have to be this hard on ourselves and we should just be able to live without feeling so much internal and social pressure.

It's kind of complicated for me. The HRT has changed my face a little I think , but I can't really tell because I have no one to tell me if there is change. I live in the same place  for 20 years and there is a flux of different people every year to 4 years because I live across from a major university, but there is a lot of the same people young and old that know me as male. I've noticed at times that the longer I've been on HRT that I'll get some curious looks from people that kind of take a little long look at me. It could be my Imagination though. I gone out in public on and off for a long time and really never had people give me strange looks. The thing is that when I in totally male clothes , people that have seen me for 20 years as male seem to be emphasizing the male pronoun when greeting me. I'm just not sure whether they're emphasizing it because they see my face change or am I just imagining their pondering look. Not being able to be objective is quite annoying. It's making me question whether HRT is doing anything or are these people that have know me for 20 years seeing a difference. I know lately there has been a couple a instances where older women for some reason seem to be giving me a disapproving look. It's very annoying not to have the objectivity when looking in the mirror. I'm beyond the point of no return in my transition , so I'll just have to take it a day at a time and see how it works out eventually. I just bought a nice outfit and I'm planning to walk to my therapy session Tuesday in proper attire. We'll see if I get any strange looks. That's if I don't chicken out because so many people around have seen me before.

[Donna Elvira]

I seriously never would have noticed. When you first posted that video, I was seriously like "wait a minute, what the hell does that video have to do with convincing me that women come in all shapes and sizes? It's just three middle-aged women singing about being hip."

Kind of funny, I never noticed that one of them was trans until you actually told me, and then all of a sudden I went back and looked at her and suddenly I immediately noticed all of the cues... the long arms, the bigger shoulders, and the angular facial features. Had you not told me she was trans, I never would have known, but now that I do know, I can see it.

I guess that really is what happens with a lot of people... once you know that someone is trans, you can see their "flaws" as clear as day. Where your average everyday person who isn't specifically looking for masculine features, and is just taking you at face value with no knowledge of your history, probably doesn't.

This is pretty consistent with one of the few times that I've met a person that I believed was trans in the wide world of everyday life. She looked trans to me, but the more and more I heard her talk, the more and more I saw her interact with everyone at my poker table, the more doubts about it I got. Because she just seemed so well-assimilated and natural with everything she did. And not knowing her history for sure, I really couldn't say for sure in the end whether she was a trans woman or just a cis-woman with a lot of masculine features. It's really hard to tell unless you know someone's history for sure.

And that's the great part of life, is that absolutely nobody you meet out there in the wide world knows your history. So even if your transness is glaringly obvious, people have no way of knowing for sure. And frankly that's probably where a lot of the prolonged stares that we fear so much come from, is from people who are curious, trying to figure you out. It's not "hehe, look at the freak" like so many of us are afraid of, it's more curiosity.

Hi Carrie.
I was told before watching it that one of the group was a trans woman and actually watched the the second of the two videos I posted first. When I heard her sing, I first thought the trans woman was Dillie Keane, the lead singer with the heavy Irish accent. Her voice is even deeper than mine... 
Apart from finding them really funny (especially Cheap Flights for those familiar with low cost flying in Europe..), I thought the videos were a brilliant demonstration of just how many genetic women would also have difficulty passing if the question was limited to "accepted standards" of prettiness.
Take care!
Donna     

[stephaniec]

I'd like to say that everyone has given such great advice and understanding. I feel a lot better about my transition thanks to everyone's honesty.