Who counts as transgender? The size of the transgender "umbrella"

[Asche]

Background: over the past few years, I've been going back and forth as to whether to call myself "transgender."  The most precise definition of what I am/do is "gender non-conforming male," in that I wear skirts and dresses and other "feminine" clothing most of the time and have no interest in being masculine, find male-dominated spaces alien,  generally prefer women's culture to men's, and identify more with women's perspective, but I don't try to pass as female (not that I would have a ghost of a chance of succeeding if I did.)

According to one definition, that makes me "transgender," in that I'm not acting according to the male role.  On the other hand, I don't feel like "a woman trapped in a man's body," and, if I were actually offered the chance to exchange my body (and social role) for a (clearly) female one or stick with the one I have, I don't know which I would choose.  And back in the days when I haunted a certain crossdressing site that shall remain nameless, people there would label me "transgender" so they could tell me how I was supposed to be and ignore my own experiences of myself, which didn't exactly endear the term to me.  But I've visited less transgender-oriented sites, e.g., crossdressing sites, and they are simply too dudebro-ish and sexist for me.  I feel no more at home there than in an NFL locker room.  I feel a lot more at home in the transgender fora.

Anyway, I've been a follower of Zinnia Jones' blog, and she recently posted an article on drag performance vs. ->-bleeped-<- which, among other things, disagrees with the notion of the "transgender umbrella".  One point she makes is that drag performers are able to go back to their cis lives when the show is over and avoid most of the negative consequences of being, so to speak, a "gender outlaw" (someone else's term for it, not Zinnia's), whereas for trans people, this is who they are 24/7, and they can't avoid the discrimination and worse by just taking off their "trans disguise," so to speak.

I think she's got some excellent points and I mostly agree with her.  But I don't know where that leaves people like me.  On the one hand, I do wear "male drag" (as I think of it) when I go to my office (company dress code and all) and in situations where I really don't want trouble (e.g., dealing with my children's teachers) or where dressing as I normally do would distract from more important things (e.g., performances of our chorus.)  On the other hand, the gender-non-conformant me is the real me, as far as I'm concerned, and it's what I express in most (non-work) areas of my life.

So I don't know if calling myself "transgender" would be an appropriation of other people's lives, or if I maybe really belong under some part of the "transgender umbrella" after all.

[defective snowflake]

I'd say that you were transgender. You do have to remember that it is an umbrella term, not a very specific one. The "trapped in a woman's or man's body" thing is usually what being a transsexual is about in general terms. Some trans people try to argue out what they consider to be "weeds" under the umbrella to try and bring more "respectability" to themselves or something like that. I wouldn't worry too much about it if I were you, terms and definitions seem to be constantly falling in and out of favor with various bloggers at varying times and as far as I'm concerned, bloggers don't set the rules for the rest of us, they are just throwing their opinion out there and it should be taken as such.

[BunnyBee]

I think the umbrella is meant to cover anybody that is gender non-conforming.  Basically if you want to be under it, you're pretty much allowed in.

[Edge]

Hi. Pleased to meet you.
Disclaimer: This is just my point of view.
Personally, I'm against roles being considered part of the transgender umbrella since that further confuses gender (which is biological) with roles (which has no biological basis and are purely arbitrary).
If it helps any, I've known and known of a lot of guys who wear skirts and who relate to and like women more than men.
As for you, you can identify however you want. If you want to identify as transgender, that's your prerogative. If you don't, that's fine as well although you're welcome to stick around if you like. Either way, it doesn't change who you are.

[suzifrommd]

On the other hand, I don't feel like "a woman trapped in a man's body," and, if I were actually offered the chance to exchange my body (and social role) for a (clearly) female one or stick with the one I have, I don't know which I would choose. 

This really has nothing to do with it.

I'm as trans as they come, been living as a woman for nearly a year now and loving it, and I NEVER felt like a woman trapped in a man's body. I never felt like a woman at all. Doesn't have anything to do with being trans.

And whether you'd switch places is related to many things, only one of which is your gender wiring.

For many of us, our gender wiring is subtle. It's not obvious we're transgender.

When I started out, I was far less gender variant than you are, was happily (mostly) living as a man.

I don't know your gender or whether you're trans - that's something only you can figure out, but the indications you mentioned above don't really have much to do with it IMO.

[Ducks]

before I found Susan's I had never really heard the term transgender.  I liked that it is better at describing the transsexual experience because trans for me was never about what sexual orientation I had, but about what gender I felt like I was and it being at cross purposes with my genitals.  Now I wonder if it is too broad a term.  If I were to say I am a post op MtF transsexual, I think I would be accurately describing the legal definition of who I am.  As I am primarily attracted to women, I would say I am a lesbian in my sexual orientation. 

If I say I am transgender, I am still left with a lot of explaining to do, especially about my orientation and legal definition.  That tells me transgender is so broad, in that everyone fits under the umbrella, that it doesn't define me after all.  If a cis man who is always and forever a man in his heart and mind wears a dress to get sexually aroused or to earn a paycheck is the same label as me, then I want a new label.   I still support them in their happiness, but it is not my happiness, and I can't identify. 

[defective snowflake]

before I found Susan's I had never really heard the term transgender.  I liked that it is better at describing the transsexual experience because trans for me was never about what sexual orientation I had, but about what gender I felt like I was and it being at cross purposes with my genitals.  Now I wonder if it is too broad a term.  If I were to say I am a post op MtF transsexual, I think I would be accurately describing the legal definition of who I am.  As I am primarily attracted to women, I would say I am a lesbian in my sexual orientation. 

If I say I am transgender, I am still left with a lot of explaining to do, especially about my orientation and legal definition.  That tells me transgender is so broad, in that everyone fits under the umbrella, that it doesn't define me after all.  If a cis man who is always and forever a man in his heart and mind wears a dress to get sexually aroused or to earn a paycheck is the same label as me, then I want a new label.   I still support them in their happiness, but it is not my happiness, and I can't identify.

It shouldn't be meant to really define who someone is, its just a term for a broad group of people kind of like human is. There are some pretty unsavory people under that umbrella too and if you tell someone you're human, you're still leaving out an awful lot of things, but at the end of the day, you're still human first, then transgender, then mtf, then whatever snowflake you more specifically are. Just depends on how much you feel you need to define yourself in any given circumstance.

Me, I don't explain myself nor do I really define myself to people. I allow them to perceive me as they wish for the most part unless they specifically ask and then I am very liable to go into detail about the alien-human hybrid experiments from the cold war era and secret Alaskan military installations where said research was carried out. They usually get the message, lol.

[aleon515]

The concept of "trapped in a _______ body", is quite an out-moded concept of transgender, and probably not applicable in many (though perhaps not all cases). I would never put it in those terms for myself, and probably why I didn't know until late in life (since this is the prevailing concept).

The umbrella is VERY wide and includes potentially includes people who do not identify themselves as transgender. From what are probably "more typical" trans narratives ("I felt this way all my life") to drag (since some drag performers do actually feel some degree of being unaligned with the gender they were born into and others do not).

--Jay

[JulieBlair]

  On the one hand, I do wear "male drag" (as I think of it) when I go to my office (company dress code and all) and in situations where I really don't want trouble (e.g., dealing with my children's teachers) or where dressing as I normally do would distract from more important things (e.g., performances of our chorus.)  On the other hand, the gender-non-conformant me is the real me, as far as I'm concerned, and it's what I express in most (non-work) areas of my life.

I pretty much agree with Jen.  If you identify as trans then welcome to the party.  It doesn't much matter to me if you are full time, part time, cross dressing or just gender queer.  If you think you are, and you are willing to be thought of as one of us, then you are. 

Asche,
That you feel comfortable morphing into guy mode when you think it is appropriate or helpful is an adaptation to life as you experience it.  I am a woman, dress like one, act as such, but if I put on my old levis and a work shirt to clean a shed, or fix a roof, that does not negate who I am.  I am transsexual, transgender, and gender queer in the same package.  I am who I am, and that is enough.  I find comfort in this community, but not so much with any attempt to balkanize my experience into narrow definitions.  Just my thoughts,

Julie

[Ducks]

The concept of "trapped in a _______ body", is quite an out-moded concept of transgender, and probably not applicable in many (though perhaps not all cases). I would never put it in those terms for myself, and probably why I didn't know until late in life (since this is the prevailing concept).

The umbrella is VERY wide and includes potentially includes people who do not identify themselves as transgender. From what are probably "more typical" trans narratives ("I felt this way all my life") to drag (since some drag performers do actually feel some degree of being unaligned with the gender they were born into and others do not).

--Jay

Jay, the descriptive of being trapped in the wrong body is only a way to explain the situation in a way that others can grok, it is the best one-sentence description of what I've been going through since birth, that am aware of.  It describes a specific situation and gives people with no inkling of gender disphoria a way to get you.  How else can you come out and get help if you can't explain yourself?  Who's mom is going to get the problem when you say you're a transgender woman if trans woman can describe anything from Jared Leto  or crying game star to drag queens to male prostitutes to Christine Jorgenson (or just about anything else).  I find it hard to feel understood when using a term that doesn't have any specific meaning to describe myself.  I thought trans woman did that when I first heard it but now I know it doesn't even scratch the surface.

[Ducks]

It shouldn't be meant to really define who someone is, its just a term for a broad group of people kind of like human is. There are some pretty unsavory people under that umbrella too and if you tell someone you're human, you're still leaving out an awful lot of things, but at the end of the day, you're still human first, then transgender, then mtf, then whatever snowflake you more specifically are. Just depends on how much you feel you need to define yourself in any given circumstance.

Me, I don't explain myself nor do I really define myself to people. I allow them to perceive me as they wish for the most part unless they specifically ask and then I am very liable to go into detail about the alien-human hybrid experiments from the cold war era and secret Alaskan military installations where said research was carried out. They usually get the message, lol.

I agree, I think it's being used to describe our 'community' when it is still only a small bit better than animal, vegetable or mineral.  The problem I have is that it is also used to describe MtF or FtM in many medical papers I've read about gender re-assignment.  It is being taught to our journalists that you say trans woman or trans man not transsexual or MtF. 

I think that's a problem for those who need to be able to really go all the way across to the physical world.  For those who plan to have surgery, there has to be a legal way to get there including laws that protect us.  Putting surgical women in the same legal boat as cross dresser males means we'll never have a chance of being included in our target gender legally.

Legal descriptions will always be necessary at some level, if you need a passport that matches your genitals post op, you need to be able to avoid saying you're from outer space, that just introduces immigration problems you probably don't need

[Ducks]

I pretty much agree with Jen.  If you identify as trans then welcome to the party.  It doesn't much matter to me if you are full time, part time, cross dressing or just gender queer.  If you think you are, and you are willing to be thought of as one of us, then you are. 

Julie

Julie, that's great for bars and dinner parties, but what about for real (government, medical, societal) recognition?  Maybe some time in the future we can all just be whatever strikes our fancy and it won't matter, but in a world where you can still be killed of fired or put out of your house for being LGBT, it seems a bit far from that day.


To be honest, it seems like trans* is diluting the issue of gender disphoria so far it won't make any sense to anyone.  If we open the women's restrooms to anyone who feels like a girl sometimes, it would be a bit scary - who's checking your inner thoughts to make sure you aren't just trying to avoid the line in the men's room?  If we go that far, we may as well make all bathrooms unisex and leave women to fend for themselves. 

We need something meaningful to get the laws passed that we need to get passed, and my flippant little bathroom reference will become the sound bite on the senate floor.   It's a tough dichotomy to resolve, because all of us who are in or past transition had to go into the women's bathroom at some point when we were anatomically still male.   That has to be protected because we're really not safe in the men's bathroom.  (in general, I think the opposite is not true, this is really 99.9% a woman's issue.  I think an anatomical woman who presents male would be welcome in either bathroom though probably not safe in a men's room, but post op FtM would not be understood if they were in the women's room, though they probably would be safe.)

[JesseG]

Hi Asche,
After talking to a lot of people, I've noticed two distinctions:
1) Those that confess feelings of identifying with another gender. They can express this in a wide variety of ways; all the way from simple gender-bending clothing, all the way to full-on transition. The driving force however is that feeling of identity.
2) Those that adopt the look of the other gender (for whatever reason) but readily admit they don't identify with it. This surprised me at first, but I've heard a number of cross-dressers tell me "when these clothes come off, I'm all guy, I like being a guy, and I wouldn't want to be a woman". I have heard these people eschew the 'trans' label.

So my own personal meaning of trans* became less to do with outward presentation, or medical procedures, and more to do with how you feel inside. That is, those people that FEEL like their original gender is not accurate, wholly or in part, are to me, transgendered. By that definition, that is a fairly large umbrella.

***

As for Zinna's blog: to me, the "highly visible vs. blending" discussion doesn't seem to be a Trans issue as much as a question of personal tastes / freedom of choice. Cis gendered women have a very similar ongoing battle about appearances and career choices, and mercilessly skewer one another, taking turns calling each other "slutty" or "plain".

In my mind, rather than deciding who is the "correct and true" trans, it's more productive to support one another's ability to choose how we want to live (something feminists have been saying about in-fighting among women).

In this day and age, would a feminist say "don't wear that outfit, it reinforces sterotypes about women?". No, they'd say "if people assume things about us because of the outfit you wear, they're the ones with the problem". I see a direct parallel to what Zinna's writing about.

/kumbaya

[BunnyBee]

Yeah I mean, I'm not saying my feelings about the umbrella (I know better than to touch that can of worms) just how I understand it to be used most of the time.  It's kind of loosely defined and all-encompassing, depending on who you talk to.

[JesseG]

The problem I have is that it is also used to describe MtF or FtM in many medical papers I've read about gender re-assignment.  It is being taught to our journalists that you say trans woman or trans man not transsexual or MtF.

Hi Ducks,
If you're arguing that the term is imprecise, I would actually agree with you. However, the genie seems to be out of the bottle.

A term was needed for this community of people who are non-gender conforming, and trans evolved into it. I suppose if someone came up with a better one, 'trans' could be reclaimed to be a more specific, medical definition. Or alternatively, the meaning you are talking about could be given a new term.

[aleon515]

Jay, the descriptive of being trapped in the wrong body is only a way to explain the situation in a way that others can grok, it is the best one-sentence description of what I've been going through since birth, that am aware of.  It describes a specific situation and gives people with no inkling of gender disphoria a way to get you.  How else can you come out and get help if you can't explain yourself?  Who's mom is going to get the problem when you say you're a transgender woman if trans woman can describe anything from Jared Leto  or crying game star to drag queens to male prostitutes to Christine Jorgenson (or just about anything else).  I find it hard to feel understood when using a term that doesn't have any specific meaning to describe myself.  I thought trans woman did that when I first heard it but now I know it doesn't even scratch the surface.

Yeah, I agree it is a telegraph that might actually be helpful to some people as an explanation. But kind of a two edge sword, since if you don't (and I didn't) identify with that particular idea, it could make it harder to figure out that you are actually transgender.

--Jay

[Ducks]

Hi Ducks,
If you're arguing that the term is imprecise, I would actually agree with you. However, the genie seems to be out of the bottle.

A term was needed for this community of people who are non-gender conforming, and trans evolved into it. I suppose if someone came up with a better one, 'trans' could be reclaimed to be a more specific, medical definition. Or alternatively, the meaning you are talking about could be given a new term.

It is a process and I realize not everyone fits into a neat category for life, that is what makes it so hard to lump even transsexuals together let alone all gender variances.  I personally think those who end up having surgery should be considered covered by the same law for cis people of their gender.  The commitment to surgery should be considered sufficient to be completely included.  For those on the path to surgery, it gets more complicated because society needs to provide a safe runway to get up to speed for takeoff.  Perhaps WPATH standards of care can be adapted to provide a legal way to transition without being at risk of being tossed in a men's prison for using the woman's bathroom.  It is a harder problem than I anticipated when I jumped into the discussion.

I'm fine if transgender means all people of gender non-conformity, another term that seems more reflective of the discussion would be PanGender since it includes all genders including intersex and cis and trans.  IMHO, there is nothing 'trans' about people happy in their gender but who want to wear a skirt or have a butch haircut.  It just seems confused in the media and the community.

Anyway, I am totally not a cis-a-phile who thinks the only way to be trans is to pass as a birth woman/man in every way possible.  I just want to see our little brothers and sisters get that better life that I didn't have growing up.

[Ducks]

Yeah, I agree it is a telegraph that might actually be helpful to some people as an explanation. But kind of a two edge sword, since if you don't (and I didn't) identify with that particular idea, it could make it harder to figure out that you are actually transgender.

--Jay

You kind of come to the point I was trying to make, how do you know you're transgender since anyone can be transgender?  How could transgender apply to you if my ilk got it defined to mean people who refused to accept their body was the right gender and felt trapped in it?  That is the hard part of having an umbrella that covers everything, I mean how do you know you weren't just gay?  I thought for the longest time I was just the gayest thing ever, so gay I wanted to change into a woman and have sex with men...  until I said that to a gay man who told me I was the least gay thing ever.  ->-bleeped-<-!

[Ducks]

Yeah I mean, I'm not saying my feelings about the umbrella (I know better than to touch that can of worms) just how I understand it to be used most of the time.  It's kind of loosely defined and all-encompassing, depending on who you talk to.

I wish I'd read this earlier

[suzifrommd]

You kind of come to the point I was trying to make, how do you know you're transgender since anyone can be transgender? 

I'm not sure I agree with the statement "anyone can be transgender." It's true but misleading. Yes, anyone could be (if the circumstances before their birth brought it about), but not everyone is, right?

Some people's gender identities match their body sex. (Actually, most people).

Those people are not trans.

Other people's gender identities don't match their body sex.

Those people are trans.

As for how you know, you're transgender, for many of us, that's a delicate journey. Some of us have to try out a presentation before we know it's for us. That's what happened to me.

Other people, for whatever reason, know very early, sometimes even before they can talk.