What is not supporting the gender binary?

[Inanna]

I feel this is a very ambiguous ideal that could use a little clarification.  As a comparison, if a straight person didn't want to support a strictly heterosexual narrative, they could avoid assuming someone's SO was opposite sex.  They could avoid using the compliment that an attractive person could have their pick of anyone of the opposite sex or that everyone of the opposite sex must be attracted to them.  If they were a writer (ads, shows, etc.), they could include a gay couple in their script or book, even if the role was minor, just to reflect the real world.

So, how does someone who happily fits into the gender binary not support it?  It seems this a more far-reaching, difficult-to-attain standard.  I almost feel people want me to *not* fit into the gender binary to oppose it; that's akin to wanting a straight person to not fit into the heterosexual narrative instead of simply being inclusive of gay people.  Imagine pressuring a straight couple to use gender neutral figures on their wedding cake.  If they want to do so as a supportive message, that's wonderful, but they shouldn't be made to feel guilty if they don't.

[HoneyStrums]

I Dont think there realy is anything that doesnt support the binery.
Except may pointing out marrage isnt

man + woman but is instead
person + person + love

[Asche]

Well, the "gender binary" is the idea that every human being (and often every animal) can be unambiguously classified as "male" or "female."   IOW, that every human can in good conscience check off exactly one of the two boxes "M" and "F".  Reminding people that there are other possibilities, as IIRC Facebook recently did when they allowed for additional gender choices besides male and female, would be one step towards un-supporting the gender binary.  Of course, you risk being seen as weird (as does anyone who steps outside of "what everybody does.")  A less conspicuous thing to do is to just not assume anything about someone's gender until they tell you.

BTW, one can be trans and still act and think in ways that support the gender binary.

Closely related to the gender binary is gender essentialism (see my post in "Opinions and Editorials" for a link to a good article on the subject.)  People who are hung up on making sure everyone is either a boy or a girl are also hung up on making sure that boys act like boys and girls act like girls.  I've seen a lot of trans folk who are gender essentialists (they just think they got put into the wrong category); this is partly because in the past nobody (especially doctors) would believe you were trans unless you were hyper-feminine (for M2Fs) or hyper-masculine (for F2Ms.)

Un-supporting gender essentialism is a little easier: simply challenge people who make comments or decisions that assume that girls are X or boys are Y.  If someone wants to know if an infant is a boy or girl, ask, "why do you want to know?"  Or just act gender-variant, to the extent you feel comfortable.  Wear pink if you consider yourself (or are usually read as) male, for instance.

[Edge]

I wish people could just be who they are without bringing that stuff into it.
On the subject of gender, I support people being whatever gender they are as long as they are supportive of me. Even if they do decide to be dicks and tell me that I'm bad and wrong for being a guy because that "automatically supports the gender binary," then I'd still support them being whatever gender they are. I just wouldn't support them being hypocritical jerks.

On the subject of roles which I don't think have anything to do with gender, personally, I think purposely going against gender essentialism enforces it's existence just as much as purposely enforcing it. Gender roles are the kind of thing that will stop existing when people stop pretending they exist. Purposely "subverting" them acknowledges their existence and, therefore, gives them power. I have probably made no sense and made some people mad. The point is, you like pink? Then like pink. Don't like pink? Then don't like pink.

[Inanna]

I wish people could just be who they are without bringing that stuff into it.
On the subject of gender, I support people being whatever gender they are as long as they are supportive of me. Even if they do decide to be dicks and tell me that I'm bad and wrong for being a guy because that "automatically supports the gender binary," then I'd still support them being whatever gender they are. I just wouldn't support them being hypocritical jerks.

I get this a lot both in rl and online.  It really makes me question whether I want to remain a part of the community. 

I also get this for identifying as bisexual.  It's so frustrating being made to feel guilty for being what makes me happiest.  As if I don't really understand my true motivations, despite being ultra introverted and introspective.

On the subject of roles which I don't think have anything to do with gender, personally, I think purposely going against gender essentialism enforces it's existence just as much as purposely enforcing it. Gender roles are the kind of thing that will stop existing when people stop pretending they exist. Purposely "subverting" them acknowledges their existence and, therefore, gives them power. I have probably made no sense and made some people mad. The point is, you like pink? Then like pink. Don't like pink? Then don't like pink.

And if someone doesn't like pink because they associate it with feminine, or vice versa, this is their valid feeling.  Don't misunderstand, I love when people break down those barriers, but it won't make people who live within them comfortably cease to exist.  We're still humans.

Overextending the effort of the breaking down categories can transform into intolerance.   

[Edge]

I get this a lot both in rl and online.  It really makes me question whether I want to remain a part of the community. 

I also get this for identifying as bisexual.  It's so frustrating being made to feel guilty for being what makes me happiest.  As if I don't really understand my true motivations, despite being ultra introverted and introspective.

Me too. For me, I mean the same thing as pansexual. I just don't like the term pansexual and don't like how most of the pan people I meet describe it as being attracted to men, women, and "transgenders." For people who are only attracted to two genders, it's not as if they can change their orientation any more than anyone else can.

And if someone doesn't like pink because they associate it with feminine, or vice versa, this is their valid feeling.  Don't misunderstand, I love when people break down those barriers, but it won't make people who live within them comfortably cease to exist.  We're still humans.

Overextending the effort of the breaking down categories can transform into intolerance.   

Oh definitely. We're still influenced by stuff like that. (Me as well.) There are many possible reasons people have whatever preferences they do.
As for people who live with them comfortably, that's part of my point. (If I remembered to put it... I think I forgot. Sorry about that.) I used to meet so many women and girls who used "girly" as an insult for other girls and women. That shouldn't be an insult. Am I making sense?

[Adam (birkin)]

I wish people could just be who they are without bringing that stuff into it.
On the subject of gender, I support people being whatever gender they are as long as they are supportive of me. Even if they do decide to be dicks and tell me that I'm bad and wrong for being a guy because that "automatically supports the gender binary," then I'd still support them being whatever gender they are. I just wouldn't support them being hypocritical jerks.

On the subject of roles which I don't think have anything to do with gender, personally, I think purposely going against gender essentialism enforces it's existence just as much as purposely enforcing it. Gender roles are the kind of thing that will stop existing when people stop pretending they exist. Purposely "subverting" them acknowledges their existence and, therefore, gives them power. I have probably made no sense and made some people mad. The point is, you like pink? Then like pink. Don't like pink? Then don't like pink.

This exactly. Especially the second part - many of the people I see trying to "break the binary" actually give it validity and reinforce it.

[Ms Grace]

I feel this is a very ambiguous ideal that could use a little clarification.  As a comparison, if a straight person didn't want to support a strictly heterosexual narrative, they could avoid assuming someone's SO was opposite sex.  They could avoid using the compliment that an attractive person could have their pick of anyone of the opposite sex or that everyone of the opposite sex must be attracted to them.  If they were a writer (ads, shows, etc.), they could include a gay couple in their script or book, even if the role was minor, just to reflect the real world.

I totally did this a few years ago. ooops!

A guy at work had mentioned his partner to me in conversation a few times. Never mentioned any pronouns - just "my partner" - he was such charming, manly man (deep voice, fit physique, etc, etc) that it never even occurred to me he was gay. I mean, I've met heaps of gay men over the years and there's obviously no "type" but with him I just presumed hetro. I referred to his partner as "she" and he corrected me in a beat. Didn't bother me, he was still the same charming guy but I did feel pretty silly for making that assumption! I certainly try to avoid making it now with everyone.

[blink]

Purposely "subverting" them acknowledges their existence and, therefore, gives them power. I have probably made no sense and made some people mad. The point is, you like pink? Then like pink. Don't like pink? Then don't like pink.

This is a great point. Non-conformism for its own sake is still letting stereotypes dictate what you do - just in reverse.
I do this too, the truth is I like some colors just fine but refuse to wear them because they're associated with girls and women. It would make me uncomfortable to wear those colors even if I like them.

[GnomeKid]

I think that in dealing with the gender binary system what is most important is not to break down the existing identities, but more to make room for the people who are everywhere in between.  No one should feel guilty for just naturally fitting into the binary, but people shouldn't expect others to have to do so. 

How do you destroy a binary?  you create a legitimate and accepted third option.  We just need a place in our society for androgynous people across the spectrum that isn't seen as subversive.  We're getting there, but its slow.  (and sometimes I kind of think the subversive element of it all is kind of fun and groovy... but clearly its not ideal in a lot of ways)

Its kind of like our two party government in America.  All the trans/androgynous people are a bunch of different parties trying to make their way into the system, but the overpowering nature of the parties in place makes that very difficult.  (that being said I'm no good at politics... so this may be a bad simile/metaphor.)

[ErinWDK]

Its kind of like our two party government in America.  All the trans/androgynous people are a bunch of different parties trying to make their way into the system, but the overpowering nature of the parties in place makes that very difficult.  (that being said I'm no good at politics... so this may be a bad simile/metaphor.)

Actually, I like this comparison.  For politics in the US a bit less than a third of the people like each of the two big parties.  I sort of am burned out on both.  This leaves a lot of people who sort of fit in the uncharted area between the two.  So, on that I have a lot of company.

This morning I set off in male mode to see the doctor.  I didn't want a load of stuff in my pockets as I know I will be weighed.  All this stuff went in a nice peach handbag.  That got locked in the trunk of the car as I was not feeling confrontational enough to carry it.  If I were more comfortable tweaking the gender binary I would have just sauntered in with it.  Maybe I will get to that point...


Erin

[Inanna]

I think that in dealing with the gender binary system what is most important is not to break down the existing identities, but more to make room for the people who are everywhere in between.  No one should feel guilty for just naturally fitting into the binary, but people shouldn't expect others to have to do so. 

How do you destroy a binary?  you create a legitimate and accepted third option.  We just need a place in our society for androgynous people across the spectrum that isn't seen as subversive.  We're getting there, but its slow.  (and sometimes I kind of think the subversive element of it all is kind of fun and groovy... but clearly its not ideal in a lot of ways)

Its kind of like our two party government in America.  All the trans/androgynous people are a bunch of different parties trying to make their way into the system, but the overpowering nature of the parties in place makes that very difficult.  (that being said I'm no good at politics... so this may be a bad simile/metaphor.)

I like this analogy and truly believe the gender binary is detrimental to human expression.  I don't want to support it, but at the same time it doesn't hurt me at all, and even a part of me likes being very different from men... just for the sake of being different from men.  The problem is that so many people *do* fit into the binary, that their collective expression creates a passive force that crushes other identities.  I don't know a good solution to this, and that's why I made this topic.  However asking others to change their expression to limit this binary force is certainly not the answer, as seems to be what some non-binary people are pushing for in a roundabout way.

[Asche]

And if someone doesn't like pink because they associate it with feminine, or vice versa, this is their valid feeling.

Nobody is saying they have to like pink.  But if they go around saying (or implying) that someone can't be male (or must be female) if they like pink, yeah, I'm going to say that's not valid.  And, yes, people do that.  I had a manager who would, out of the blue, make comments implying that men should feel emasculated if they wear pink.  I have a brother who makes a point of insisting that pink is only for women -- and sissies.  Yeah, I'm going to push back against that.

Same for the rest.  The point isn't to force people to _be_ non-binary (or non-cis), it's to get them to recognize and accept and ultimately accommodate people who aren't.