the death penalty

[tinkerbell]

we dont got a right to kill nobody.

I wish murderers could understand this statement too, Chris.

tink

[cindianna_jones]

I think that if we provided basic education, health care, and a decent living wage for people, we could prevent a lot of this stuff before it happens. 

We'll never be able to prevent many of them but if you look at the prison population, there are a lot of people in there who have never had any chance or hope at a normal life.  You think we've got it bad?  Just roll it around in your mind for a while.  Think of being a minority, growing up in a project, never getting a proper meal, never knowing who your dad is, you go to school but the teachers just baby sit .... they don't teach, thinking that the only way to succeed is to become a football star or drug dealer, have to join a gang to get by..... it's a mess.  It really is.  Yes, there are a few who can pull themselves out of that hole.  But not many.

I went to such a school.  Only 15 of the kids that I started junior high with finished high school.  There were three of us who finished college.  I had it much better than most.  I'm white.

Cindi

[RebeccaFog]

I think that if we provided basic education, health care, and a decent living wage for people, we could prevent a lot of this stuff before it happens. 

We'll never be able to prevent many of them but if you look at the prison population, there are a lot of people in there who have never had any chance or hope at a normal life.  You think we've got it bad?  Just roll it around in your mind for a while.  Think of being a minority, growing up in a project, never getting a proper meal, never knowing who your dad is, you go to school but the teachers just baby sit .... they don't teach, thinking that the only way to succeed is to become a football star or drug dealer, have to join a gang to get by..... it's a mess.  It really is.  Yes, there are a few who can pull themselves out of that hole.  But not many.

I went to such a school.  Only 15 of the kids that I started junior high with finished high school.  There were three of us who finished college.  I had it much better than most.  I'm white.

Cindi

Well, I don't know about you being white, but I do agree with the rest of your post.  (that was a joke  )
  Besides just learning reading and math, I think we could do better having classes that teach civics and real basic how to's about living in general like how to pay rent and buy groceries and balance a budget and that kind of thing.

Rebis without a Ruben

[cindianna_jones]

Besides just learning reading and math, I think we could do better having classes that teach civics and real basic how to's about living in general like how to pay rent and buy groceries and balance a budget and that kind of thing.

Yes Rebis! Additionally, music, art, and other "fun" classes have all but disappeared from our lower income schools.  Learning has to be fun.  Education must include the arts to be well rounded.  We are seeing what happens when we cut those classes that have always been so important.  They exist in the upper income schools but not in the impoverished areas of our country. 

Cindi

[Rachael]

when a criminal invalidates someones human right to life, they forfit thiers...

R

[cindianna_jones]

Our approach to everything in this country is backwards.

It's sortta like our sewage is backing up into the bathtub and showers.  What we do is to pass a law prohibiting use of the toilet.

Wouldn't it make much more sense to clear the line first?

Cindi

[RebeccaFog]

what if we lobotomize them and then kept them in cages forever?

[Laura Eva B]

when a criminal invalidates someones human right to life, they forfit thiers...

R

Rachael, haven't read through this post (guess I don't need to on this topic) but what makes the UK a way more civilised community than the US is that we will never have the death penalty ever again .....

If we did we'd be kinda validating the sentence on that poor woman in Iran who was stoned to death just a week or so ago for adultery, or the 18 year old boy strung up in the same country for alledged rape.

And will the US servicemen who undeniably killed absolutely innocent Iraquis get the lethal injection ?  Thinks not !

Until we can have justice for all murderers .... and the verdict can be drawn without any doubt, then the death penalty is a sham.

But I really belive that the death penalty is a medeival remnant, no civilised person could condone killing a human whatever his / her crimes 

Laura x

[RebeccaFog]

And will the US servicemen who undeniably killed absolutely innocent Iraquis get the lethal injection ?  Thinks not !

Until we can have justice for all murderers .... and the verdict can be drawn without any doubt, then the death penalty is a sham.

But I really belive that the death penalty is a medeival remnant, no civilised person could condone killing a human whatever his / her crimes 

Laura x

Good point.  I'll bet even that guy who tossed a grenade into a tent at the beginning of the war did not get the death penalty.

[edited because the wrong meaning was implied]

[Suzie]

The death penalty is hypocritical.  Just listen to your heart and you know you don't want to harm another human being, despite what they did.  I myself, could never, EVER, kill another human being (while being of sane mind).  So who among you are going to press the switch that triggers the electric chair personally?  Who will administer the lethal injection PERSONALLY?  yeah, i bet you will.  So nice and convenient you have someone else do the dirty work...

There are studies that say over 75% of prison inmates were sexually abused when they were children.  How's about that for losing trust in other human beings?  Don't you have any compassion whatsoever for people in prison?  That could be YOU. 

I believe people who are intent on harming other human beings, such as murderers and rapists and robbers, etc., should be segregated from the rest of the population, without question.  But, I think by killing them, we are condoning their actions as a society and this is the wrong message to send.

[cindianna_jones]

If we take a look at the lives of serial killers like Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, David Berkowitz, Wayne Gayce, you will notice that they are not your typical project minority resident people who grew up in total misery.

Fortunately, these freaks are few and far between. As a percentage of those on death row, I'd say that their presence is insignificant.  I agree that this sort of thing happens, but it is extremely rare.

And will the US servicemen who undeniably killed absolutely innocent Iraquis get the lethal injection ?  Thinks not !

Let's see. You give a bunch of teenagers guns and train them to kill.  Then you take them to a foreign country where they don't speak the language and tell them to be peace officers. Then you send them out in a couple of trucks and they see their buddie get blown in half.  Hmm.... I wonder what they are going to do.

Can it be that we expect too much from our trained killers? We just can't do this with kids.  It does not work!  You want them to not kill?  Don't give them guns.  Oh... they can't do their job without guns?  What is their job anyway? Can anyone tell me what that job is?  I betchya THEY can't.

I believe that we should be held to a higher standard.  There is no doubt in my mind.  However, in combat, our armed forces are going to kill.  We should realize this, our leadership should KNOW it.

I don't know the specifics of this case, but it is a heart wrencher any way you look at it.

Cindi

[ChildOfTheLight]

There are studies that say over 75% of prison inmates were sexually abused when they were children.  How's about that for losing trust in other human beings?  Don't you have any compassion whatsoever for people in prison?  That could be YOU.

They're still responsible for their actions.  Plenty of people are sexually abused (and yes, it's a horrible thing) and never commit crimes.

Nonetheless, like you, I oppose the death penalty.  I have philosophical reasons (that it is wrong to take any human life, except in response to a clear and present threat on another person's life, including one's own) as well as practical ones (those who get the death penalty are often those convicted on weak evidence because their court-appointed lawyer didn't do his job; it costs more in money and time to carry out the death penalty than life imprisonment because of all the appeals) for that position.

Cindi -- I agree with you that we need to get out of Iraq as soon as possible.  I'd say we should stay far away from world-policing expeditions of any kind. 

[Blanche]

Even in the best judicial systems in the world, i.e., Western Europe, it is estimated that as many as 10% of people found guilty of any crime are, in fact, innocent.
I believe that to not have the death penalty, is the sign of a civilised country. As a European, I am proud we led the way in this.
Much better to leave a person in jail for the rest of his life. Forensics are advancing all the time,. and many convicted murderers can, in fact be proved innocent years later.
The common argument is that they get it too easy in prison- i'.e., colour televisions. I think that would be the ultimate torture, to have to watch television for the rest of your life.

[Rachael]

i was wating for a 'lets execute the soldiers then.
But under law, soldiers arnt subject to the same laws as civilians in combat, laws yes, but different ones, in war, civilians die, its sad but true. and ESPECIALLY in urban combat.you would not bandy around suggestions of executeing those who go to fight and protect inocents, (regardless of the political intent) if you yourself had seen combat. thats just disrespectful.

[katia]

Without a punishment that threatens a reciprocal outcome for someone who commits grievous crimes [murder, rape, treason], criminals will always know that they can literally get away with murder [at least once] without any repercussions other than a dry bed, three squares a day and like minded neighbors [isn't that like summer camp?] for the rest of their lives.

who says people who support the death penalty are uncivilized?
i think it's possible for a person to forfeit their own life through their actions.

i think justice sometimes requires that the criminal dies too.

i feel that some people just don't have the guts to make the hard call and destroy somebody that truly needs destroying.

i feel like my tax dollars shouldn't be spent to keep rapists/child molesters/murderers alive indefinitely when bullets are so darned cheap.

i think your god can sort them out faster and more economically than we can.

[RebeccaFog]

i was wating for a 'lets execute the soldiers then.
But under law, soldiers arnt subject to the same laws as civilians in combat, laws yes, but different ones, in war, civilians die, its sad but true. and ESPECIALLY in urban combat.you would not bandy around suggestions of executeing those who go to fight and protect inocents, (regardless of the political intent) if you yourself had seen combat. thats just disrespectful.

The soldiers pulled innocent people out of their home and executed them.  There have been at least 2 cases where the fiends raped a female. They also beat and tortured some of their victims.

That is not combat.

Posted on: August 01, 2007, 09:07:09 AM

Without a punishment that threatens a reciprocal outcome for someone who commits grievous crimes [murder, rape, treason], criminals will always know that they can literally get away with murder [at least once] without any repercussions other than a dry bed, three squares a day and like minded neighbors [isn't that like summer camp?] for the rest of their lives.

who says people who support the death penalty are uncivilized?
i think it's possible for a person to forfeit their own life through their actions.

i think justice sometimes requires that the criminal dies too.

i feel that some people just don't have the guts to make the hard call and destroy somebody that truly needs destroying.

i feel like my tax dollars shouldn't be spent to keep rapists/child molesters/murderers alive indefinitely when bullets are so darned cheap.

i think your god can sort them out faster and more economically than we can.

     If I decide it is okay to kill one person, even if it is someone I saw commit their crime, then I will be capable of killing 2 people.  I would not stop there.  I know myself and I know that, given the circumstances, I would become quite the killer.  There are many people I'm sometimes in the mood to kill. Don't worry, they tend to be violent criminals and people who hurt others.

     My sense of morality does not allow for exceptions.

    Honestly, if I went to war, I would have the same problem.  Why should I just kill the enemy?  To me, the enemy is also people on our side who show no mercy to others or who break my moral code in how to behave in wartime, therefore, I would have to kill them too.

[Aeyra]

i was wating for a 'lets execute the soldiers then.
But under law, soldiers arnt subject to the same laws as civilians in combat, laws yes, but different ones, in war, civilians die, its sad but true. and ESPECIALLY in urban combat.you would not bandy around suggestions of executeing those who go to fight and protect inocents, (regardless of the political intent) if you yourself had seen combat. thats just disrespectful.

Unfortunately there are no such thing as rules of combat. If you are in the middle of a city with bombs and napalm raining down onto your head, it doesn't matter what you or your enemy thinks, you either run, be decapitated, or do that to your enemy. The only rule in any warzone is might makes right. This is the case in every war; I can't imagine that during the Iraq War that the Republican Guard in Baghdad stopped and tried to explain to US forces what the Americans could and couldn't do in their nation. The US Army would laugh as they ran roughshod over the Iraqis.

With that said, I don't believe in any form of the death penalty with the exception of genocide proven in a court of law. If you sanction murder within a country, your murder rates usually go up. Take a good look at the violent crime rates in the countries that make up the Southeastern USA versus the ones in the Northeastern quarter. The SOuthern states have violent crimes rates similar to some of your Latin American countries and all of the SOuthern states have a death penalty culture. On the other hand, the Northeastern countries, while some of them do have the death penalty, they do not glorify it like the Southern theocracies do, and as a result the Northern quarter of the USA is nowhere near as violent as the Southeast or the West.

[cindianna_jones]

i feel like my tax dollars shouldn't be spent to keep rapists/child molesters/murderers alive indefinitely when bullets are so darned cheap.

At least for now, it is much cheaper to warehouse them for the rest of their lives than to go through all the appeals and legal hassle to put them to death here in the US.  Quite honestly, I feel ambivalent about some cases.  So I'm not on some high horse here.  But I also know that in ALL cases, I do not have all the relevant facts.

As a teenager, there was a heinous torture murder case in my town.  The hostages where forced to drink Drano and each of them had a pencil shoved into their brain through their ears.  Two of the four survived.  One was a kid my age who attended the same high school as I. He never regained his ability to think straight.  His mother was one of the two that did not survive.    It was clear that these guys did it.  There was overwhelming evidence.  They admitted it.  The other survivor was able to identify them. 

It took them nearly twenty years to dispatch these devils.  I do admit that I wanted them dead.  I also recall the racial rage that existed in my community.  Since the perpetrators were black, there was strong sentiment to get guns and rifles and go into the black neighborhoods to "kill 'em all".  You see where this leads?

Since then, I've changed my opinions on the death penalty.  There was a time in my life when I would have had no compunction to pull the switch on those murderers.  I don't think that I could do it now.  Until we can learn to value all life, we will never be able to prevent war and all else that is ugly that we currently support as a country. Our society does not walk on solid moral ground.

Cindi

[Elizabeth]

i feel like my tax dollars shouldn't be spent to keep rapists/child molesters/murderers alive indefinitely when bullets are so darned cheap.

At least for now, it is much cheaper to warehouse them for the rest of their lives than to go through all the appeals and legal hassle to put them to death here in the US.  Quite honestly, I feel ambivalent about some cases.  So I'm not on some high horse here.  But I also know that in ALL cases, I do not have all the relevant facts.

As a teenager, there was a heinous torture murder case in my town.  The hostages where forced to drink Drano and each of them had a pencil shoved into their brain through their ears.  Two of the four survived.  One was a kid my age who attended the same high school as I. He never regained his ability to think straight.  His mother was one of the two that did not survive.    It was clear that these guys did it.  There was overwhelming evidence.  They admitted it.  The other survivor was able to identify them. 

It took them nearly twenty years to dispatch these devils.  I do admit that I wanted them dead.  I also recall the racial rage that existed in my community.  Since the perpetrators were black, there was strong sentiment to get guns and rifles and go into the black neighborhoods to "kill 'em all".  You see where this leads?

Since then, I've changed my opinions on the death penalty.  There was a time in my life when I would have had no compunction to pull the switch on those murderers.  I don't think that I could do it now.  Until we can learn to value all life, we will never be able to prevent war and all else that is ugly that we currently support as a country. Our society does not walk on solid moral ground.

Cindi

I remember that case, very well. I have not thought about it for a long time. I used to be totally for the death penalty. I have since changed my mind. Not because there are those who don't deserve such, but because history has proven that it is never dished out fairly. If someone kills someone in my family, I don't care if they thought about it first. How stupid, yet that is the difference between getting the death penalty and not getting it.

That of course does not mention all those who have been wrongfully convicted. We have over 70 people now that have been released from death row after DNA proved they were not the killers. How many people died for no reason before we had DNA? And that does not include the fact that it ends up costing over $1 million to execute someone. Life in prison is way cheaper. We know it's not a deterrent. And to be quite honest, I really have come to like the idea of life without parole in supermax, 23 hour a day lockdown. No yard, no friends, no communications. I can not imagine how slow 40 years must go by.

Plus after hearing from family members who watched prisoners executed for killing their family members all felt the person got to die "too easy". It turns out it is not even satisfying. And lastly how can we kill people for killing people. Either killing is wrong, or it's not. It can not be both.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[RebeccaFog]

Plus after hearing from family members who watched prisoners executed for killing their family members all felt the person got to die "too easy". It turns out it is not even satisfying. And lastly how can we kill people for killing people. Either killing is wrong, or it's not. It can not be both.

Love always,
Elizabeth

   I think that is the point that I tried to badly make before.  My government should have NO right that I don't have.  If it is okay for the state to kill, then it is okay for me to do it too, and, if it's okay for me to do it too, then the state has no right to kill me for doing it.