Gender is 100% mental.

[candifla]

It's a bold statement but I have my own experiences to validate this for me.

Pre-2005, I was totally homophobic. I was a guy's guy; albeit, with a crossdressing past. Seeing men make love or kissing is revolting to me then, and yet, still now.

However, ever since I accepted and decided to pursue the goal of becoming a woman, when I'm in girl mode, I'm totally into guys. I still find kissing men hard to do, but it's becoming easier, and I can only do it when i'm mentally a girl.

Now when I'm in male mode, I don't think of guys at all. Since I'm mentally male at work, my mind is mostly focused on tasks. Around work, I kid with the best of them, and find women physically appealing; though my sexual desire is definitely towards men--and that's only "on" when I'm in female mind mode.

I was never into men. never ever ever before my acceptance and desire to become woman. Jeebus sakes, I have 40K porn images of women on my hard drive (sadly, collecting digital dust). 

Oh yes, I'm NOT on hormones. All this change has been taking place within mind only.

I always joked back in the day that if I WERE to be a woman, I would be a lesbian, but the opposite is bearing out. I'm much more interested in straight men (who like transsexuals) than I am in women, transsexuals or gay men. I mean, it would be best if I could find a woman that liked M2F, but for some reason, that relationship would seem to be unfulfilling.

I think I also have the answer to that. To me, it seems that if I were to date another woman, I would still be the male in that role--a role that I don't wish to have anymore. Perhaps that is a clue. I don't know. Any thoughts out there on this?

One final thought. Now, when I see a pretty woman, instead of thinking I'd like to make out with her, I'm looking at her clothes, her mannerisms, listening to her voice, trying to pick up what qualities of that person I can emulate. Though I still find women darn sexy, it's now more of a sisterly thing.

I took the red pill.. the red pill!!!!

[Elizabeth]

It's a bold statement but I have my own experiences to validate this for me.

Pre-2005, I was totally homophobic. I was a guy's guy; albeit, with a crossdressing past. Seeing men make love or kissing is revolting to me then, and yet, still now.

However, ever since I accepted and decided to pursue the goal of becoming a woman, when I'm in girl mode, I'm totally into guys. I still find kissing men hard to do, but it's becoming easier, and I can only do it when i'm mentally a girl.

Now when I'm in male mode, I don't think of guys at all. Since I'm mentally male at work, my mind is mostly focused on tasks. Around work, I kid with the best of them, and find women physically appealing; though my sexual desire is definitely towards men--and that's only "on" when I'm in female mind mode.

I was never into men. never ever ever before my acceptance and desire to become woman. Jeebus sakes, I have 40K porn images of women on my hard drive (sadly, collecting digital dust). 

Oh yes, I'm NOT on hormones. All this change has been taking place within mind only.

I always joked back in the day that if I WERE to be a woman, I would be a lesbian, but the opposite is bearing out. I'm much more interested in straight men (who like transsexuals) than I am in women, transsexuals or gay men. I mean, it would be best if I could find a woman that liked M2F, but for some reason, that relationship would seem to be unfulfilling.

I think I also have the answer to that. To me, it seems that if I were to date another woman, I would still be the male in that role--a role that I don't wish to have anymore. Perhaps that is a clue. I don't know. Any thoughts out there on this?

One final thought. Now, when I see a pretty woman, instead of thinking I'd like to make out with her, I'm looking at her clothes, her mannerisms, listening to her voice, trying to pick up what qualities of that person I can emulate. Though I still find women darn sexy, it's now more of a sisterly thing.

I took the red pill.. the red pill!!!!

This is so far from where I am, it's truly hard for me to comprehend. You "accept" becoming a woman as a "goal"? I just don't get that. From the time I was very little I always knew something was wrong. I had three older brothers and two were just a year and two years older than me. It was clear to me I was not like them, even as far back as age three. But at age nine I found out what a transsexual was from a Reader's Digest article and knew that was what I was. I never saw it was something I could accept or not accept. It was just how it was.

And this really has nothing to do with my sexuality, as far as preference goes. I simply am not attracted to men. Putting on women's clothes and having a woman's identity did not change my sexuality preference and it certainly does not go back and forth depending on how I am dressed. At least I don't think it would. I have not been in men's clothes in quite a while, but women's clothes did not make me attracted to men.

Perhaps you are just having trouble coming to terms with your bisexuality? It would appear you are attracted to both men and women. I am sorry but I am just having a tough time with this. If you are dressed as a women and you begin to make love to a man, then take your clothes off, what happens? I mean if another woman came in while you were in a state of undress, would you return to being attracted to her? How do you get into a state of mind to change sexual preference? And how does this relate to transsexuality?

Love always,
Elizabeth

[sarahb]

I actually can relate to your experiences in that when in male-mode I do have tendencies of a male, and when in girl-mode I have tendencies of a female. I also relate to your disposition toward homosexuality. I used to, and still am to a certain degree, put off by male-on-male interaction.

The question I ask...is this mental due to our own inherent beliefs and attitudes towards it, or is it mental due to social conditioning and growing up with a society that has these beliefs. I believe it's a little of both, but mostly society. I say this because of the vast differences in social behavior and acceptance in various cultures. There are actually cultures in the world that are largely based on homosexual tendencies. They would not second-guess someone who said they are gay, lesbian, bi, etc. There are cultures that are less belittling of homosexuality. Then there is our (my) culture, one in which there is a large population that feels strongly opposed to homosexuality and possibly imposes that belief onto their children and others they interact with.

Now, even though I relate closely to your experiences I find myself questioning the merit of those beliefs and why I feel the way I do. There is no possible justification I can come up with to make those feelings based on anything but fear or hate towards the inability to understand things that are different or that we cannot relate to. Therefore, I am trying to shed them as best as possible.

Now that I got that out of the way, the original title is that "gender" is 100% mental. I will start by saying that gender is 100% hard-coded (not mental or otherwise). It's something that cannot be changed based on your attitude, current situation, mentality, etc. The only thing that changes is your ability to understand, accept, and be comfortable with yourself. In my situation, the reason I believe I have male tendencies when in male mode is because I feel more comfortable when I exert male to someone who perceives male. Now, that comfort is based solely on my discomfort with portraying "female" when in a mode of "male." It doesn't mean that I like or want to feel that way, but that is me.

Sarah

[Elizabeth]

NOTA,

I am sorry if I came off as being dismissive, far from it. I am trying to grasp it. I am trying to compare what my feelings are to what you are telling me what you feel and see if I can relate in any way. I don't consider intimate relations between a transsexual woman and a man as being homosexual. I consider intimate relations between a transsexual woman and another transsexual women or genetic woman to be homosexual. To be honest, I don't find any of it all that attractive.

And while I don't object to men and actually enjoy being the bottom, I simply am not turned on at all by men. In fact just the opposite. For me, that really doesn't have anything to do with being transsexual. I simply can't relate to male mode or female mode. For me, even though I spent many years pretending I was a man, on the inside I always knew what I was. I think if I could ever actually feel male, I probably would have tried to just keep living my life as one.

It was this constant struggle of "ok, what would a man do?", that really made life dreary. As a man, I just didn't understand what was expected of me. Everything was, watch, learn, repeat, for me. But if something new came up, I really didn't know how a man would respond to it. I just don't seem to have the male instincts. What seemed to come natural to every other guy, was just not there for me. So I just can not relate when you say things like "when in male mode". There seems to be an implication that your thinking changes to accommodate how you present yourself. I could act, but never has my thinking changed. At least in that regard.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Lori]

Gender is 100% Mental?

I guess one would have to assume that Gender and sexual preference go hand in hand right?

I would think that gender is how you identify ie.. male/female.

Whether you like men or not is a sexual preference thing, is it not? Feeling or being girly may be just you being yourself and letting go the male side and letting a natural thing happen. As a general rule, women are naturally attracted to males in nature and as you become one I would see it as a natural thing. But there are plenty of lesbians so I would still have to say being sexualy attracted to one gender or another is a sexual preference....right?

[LostInTime]

As someone who has read research in this particular arena and has lectured, no it is not. Gender is comprised of psychological, sociological, and biological aspects. These items vary depending on the culture of the individual, host culture of the area, importance placed on biological aspects, and the psychology of the individual in question. Besides your post is more about sexuality which is independent of gender. Many among the gender variant have experienced a "switching of sides" or coming more towards a middle solution.

[Lori]

As someone who has read research in this particular arena and has lectured, no it is not. Gender is comprised of psychological, sociological, and biological aspects. These items vary depending on the culture of the individual, host culture of the area, importance placed on biological aspects, and the psychology of the individual in question. Besides your post is more about sexuality which is independent of gender. Many among the gender variant have experienced a "switching of sides" or coming more towards a middle solution.

Are you referring to general topic of this thread LIT?

[seldom]

As someone who has read research in this particular arena and has lectured, no it is not. Gender is comprised of psychological, sociological, and biological aspects. These items vary depending on the culture of the individual, host culture of the area, importance placed on biological aspects, and the psychology of the individual in question. Besides your post is more about sexuality which is independent of gender. Many among the gender variant have experienced a "switching of sides" or coming more towards a middle solution.

I have to agree with this.

Gender is far from a "mental" thing for me.  Its there, its deeply ingrained. 
I tried to compromise with a middle ground throughout my life, it didn't work.  My real gender identity got louder and louder. 

Also to be honest, as much as we say gender is a performance, for some of us its not.  We are extremely different from the outset and people do notice.  We struggle with it until it creates enough emotional and psychological problems where we have to transition.  Our gender expression runs contrary to our appearance from the very begining. 

Saying that gender is "mental", strictly performance (there is this aspect to engendering in culture that is performance and a social construct, but gender identity is ingrained) and everything you are saying here kind of debunks the concept of TS as a whole (in fact it stinks of the second wave "feminist" that openly insulted transsexuals).  If for you gender is mental what is the point of transitioning?  If it were merely a choice and a social construct why the hell do many of us feel that transitioning is a life or death decision (okay maybe not life or death for everybody, but life or feeling undead decision for some)?   

I also have to agree it sounds like you are struggling with your own bi-sexuality and upbringing where there is homophobia. 

(I think I am starting to buy into Nero's Primary and Secondary ideas when I read posts like these.)

Also gender and sexual orientation are separate.  Maybe you had a hard time dealing with your own bisexuality because of your homophobia.  Just because you are presenting as female does not change your sexual orientation.  Rather it is bringing a subconscious aspect of your psyche that is allowed to come out when presenting.  Like it or not, it was always there. 

With that being said HRT can change ones sexual orientation or at least trigger something that is relatively unknown at this point to shift sexual orientation for some.  The influence of cross sex hormones on sexual orientation is still unknown.  Taking for me it is unknown and undefined because of my long standing asexuality, there is a good chance that HRT might trigger a latent sexual orientation. 

[Lisbeth]

Evolutionary psychology says no it is not.  But since that is a theoretical perspective, it's beside the point.  The experience of intersexed people demonstrates that gender is a combination of inborn knowledge and socialization.

It is a given that until recent years intersexed children were assigned a sex randomly based on the specialization and abilities of the surgeon who worked on them.  Given this it would assumed that if there is a "true" biological gender for each of them, they be assigned wrong 50% of the time.  In which case 50% of intersexed people would show gender dysphoria equivalent to transsexuals.  On the other hand if gender is all socialization, then they should show the same percentage of gender dysphoria as the general population. 

Neither case is true.  In a follow up study of 200 intersexed people, about 17% were gender dysphoric.  This suggests that gender is 1/3 inborn and 2/3 socialized.

[Nero]

It's a bold statement but I have my own experiences to validate this for me.

Pre-2005, I was totally homophobic. I was a guy's guy; albeit, with a crossdressing past. Seeing men make love or kissing is revolting to me then, and yet, still now.

However, ever since I accepted and decided to pursue the goal of becoming a woman, when I'm in girl mode, I'm totally into guys. I still find kissing men hard to do, but it's becoming easier, and I can only do it when i'm mentally a girl.

Now when I'm in male mode, I don't think of guys at all. Since I'm mentally male at work, my mind is mostly focused on tasks. Around work, I kid with the best of them, and find women physically appealing; though my sexual desire is definitely towards men--and that's only "on" when I'm in female mind mode.

I was never into men. never ever ever before my acceptance and desire to become woman. Jeebus sakes, I have 40K porn images of women on my hard drive (sadly, collecting digital dust). 

Oh yes, I'm NOT on hormones. All this change has been taking place within mind only.

I always joked back in the day that if I WERE to be a woman, I would be a lesbian, but the opposite is bearing out. I'm much more interested in straight men (who like transsexuals) than I am in women, transsexuals or gay men. I mean, it would be best if I could find a woman that liked M2F, but for some reason, that relationship would seem to be unfulfilling.

I think I also have the answer to that. To me, it seems that if I were to date another woman, I would still be the male in that role--a role that I don't wish to have anymore. Perhaps that is a clue. I don't know. Any thoughts out there on this?

One final thought. Now, when I see a pretty woman, instead of thinking I'd like to make out with her, I'm looking at her clothes, her mannerisms, listening to her voice, trying to pick up what qualities of that person I can emulate. Though I still find women darn sexy, it's now more of a sisterly thing.

I took the red pill.. the red pill!!!!

Let me get this straight:
In male mode - you like women but don't like men
In female mode - you like men but don't like women

To be honest - I think this has nothing to do with gender being mental, but the fact you would feel uncomfortable in a homosexual relationship.

[seldom]

*I* never made the assertion anything is strictly this or that or other, I said that it's all mixed up together, that it's complex.

Nowhere did I say 'only a choice' or anything like it, either; I have a more or less philosophical take on it, I have thought about it for some time, and these are my thoughts on it, for me, for any other person, it may well not apply at all. My post is not even vaguely polemical, per your having confounded it with this or that feminist stance.

Sorry I got a little defensive.  I just saw a problem when you said that there is a performance aspect to gender.

To me there is a performance aspect to gender presentation, it is not to gender itself.  That is why many transsexuals are very careful to distinguish between the performance aspect of gender and gender itself, because there is a difference.  One has to do with the presentation of gender, the other has to do with ones own identity.    This is why an effeminate gay male, still identifies as male, while a tomboy TS female, identifies as female.  While the performance of the gay male may be femme, his gender and identity are without question male.  I could go on, but these distinctions are actually important and some of us do make them.  Its a way to avoid traps of the past and draws an important distinction that there is a difference.  Its the difference between butch, femme, androgynous etc.  These are separate from male/female/neither. 

_______________________________

With that being said.  While I agree it is mental, in that it is defined by ones brain, I do not buy into the "mental" thing the original poster is putting forth.  In fact quite a bit of what was written I find extremely troubling. 

I am not denying her gender identity, but there are some very troubling aspects to the post that kind of concern me with regards to the comments of being a man's man and the homophobia, among other things in the post.   

I consider homophobia bad in all instances.  Hating on somebody because they were queer was a personal fault you are going to have to abandon, its another form of misogyny and just like gays have no right to be transphobic, transgender people have no right to be homophobic. 

I will leave it at that.  Queerphobia in any form is terrible.  Taking how much crap we take for who we are, we should know what its like to be targeted by it, and know better to avoid it ourselves.

(PS I do identify as feminist, my criticism is "feminist", notice the qoutes, in the past who insulted transfolks and revealed their own form of bigotry.)

[seldom]

To be honest - I think this has nothing to do with gender being mental, but the fact you would feel uncomfortable in a homosexual relationship.

So agreed, the post seems to be more about how her perception of herself affects her view of sex with men (which I don't think is so unusual for transwomen... I sort of felt that way even though I did have crushes on men). That's not about your internal gender but maybe more like a by-product of it? While I'm certain there are some 'male' behaviors that have become modified or disappeared since I transitioned, in general, I just am the way I've always been... which ain't never been that male. Perhaps just not strangling some of the more really obvious female stuff from coming up to the surface has been a change. The rest of what little male there was just dried up and fell into a pile of dust. And now I can breathe better.

I like the term Julia Serano uses, "unconscious gender" to refer to our inner understand of ourselves. In my experience this was inborn and stuck around despite a whole lot of external evidence to the contrary. The psychology of it was more my male "performance" within society... a survival strategy.

ciao,
Gina M.

Its nice to see I am not the only one reading Serano (or referencing her for that matter).  I kind of agree with what is said here. 

[Lisbeth]

i think i look like a soccer mom 

LOL! Ashley, you may have a very good point there! Tell me you've seen <a href="https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,16499.msg128242.html#msg128242">this post</a> already!

Now, being married with kids as I am, would the real wanna be soccer mom in my family please step forward!

I used to be a soccer mom, but none of my kids is into soccer anymore.  And, Gina, back then I drove a minivan.

[Jonie]

You took the words right out of my head, maybe sexual orientation is just an expression of how we interpret or express our gender. Maybe it has more to do with wanting to be with the same sex or not than being attracted to men or women. If you are hetero and find yourself a girl you will want to be with a man.
I knew someone who couldn't get past this issue so I said, "imagine a Genie appears before you and instead of granting you three wishes, changes your sex from a woman to a man then places you in a singles bar and then made you so horny that you had no choice but to leave there with someone and end up having sex with them, would you leave with a man or a woman?"
Now in reality she was a hetero woman so and she instinctively said she would leave with a man. So I asked her,  "then as a man in this bar you would end up having gay sex with another man?"
She replied "absolutely not!"
So it might have more to do with your gender expressing itself as straight, bi, or gay than any preferences you might have for male or female sex partners.

[Reena]

Ever since my early childhood i can remember i am not attracted to men when i was boy/man.  Today i still do not want to be with a man, but do prefer having the company of a woman and maybe more  with the right lady.  I have reecently started to transistion to my womanhood and hope that nothing will get in the way.  At present my feelings for men sexually are not even a thought, I still prefer having female friends TS or otherwise.  Maybe i am lesbian orientated with my new life but do not know at this time,  I too am confused at times, but sure time will tell which direction i will go.  In closing i will say, I have never enjoyed the company of males in my life, but always enjoy the women i have known and understand me always.  I hope i have been of some help........Reena

[Lisbeth]

Very much reminds me of our "Soccer Mom" Mobile!  <a href="http://www.internetautoguide.com/reviews/45-int/minivans/chrysler/town-country/1999/index.html">1999 Chrysler Town & Country LXI</a>

Excuse Me! Now wait just a sec! I happen to LIKE my "soccer mobile".

LOL!  Mine was a Plymouth Voyager.

Posted on: July 24, 2007, 12:26:03 PM

I knew someone who couldn't get past this issue so I said, "imagine a Genie appears before you and instead of granting you three wishes, changes your sex from a woman to a man then places you in a singles bar and then made you so horny that you had no choice but to leave there with someone and end up having sex with them, would you leave with a man or a woman?"
Now in reality she was a hetero woman so and she instinctively said she would leave with a man. So I asked her,  "then as a man in this bar you would end up having gay sex with another man?"
She replied "absolutely not!"

I feel so sorry for people who have been socialized into thinking that they have to be mono-sexual.

[sarahb]

I strenuously disagree with this. While Sexuality may be hard-wired, Gender tends to be a social construct, if not an outright performance art; you might take a person's statements at face value when they say 'sometimes I feel one or the other'. What would be the pragmatic reasons for a therapist to insist 'living in role' if the word 'role' is that invalid a term?

Gender was a little ambiguous a word to use. Let me rephrase that to make it clearer...Gender Identity is 100% hard-coded, meaning you can't change your Gender Identity by any means, be it mental, physical, or otherwise. There have been cases where this has been tried and failed miserably. In the case of hermaphrodites, where the parents decide one gender for the baby and end up getting it wrong. This is due to the fact that just because of how you raise your child, what you try to instill in them, and how society perceives you, there is still the underlying fact of it all that you have the true identity of the opposite sex. What you are talking about is Gender Expression. What society perceives, and expects in most cases, is a certain Gender Expression that matches your birth sex. This has no bearing on your Gender Identity and anyone with any Gender Identity can posses whatever Gender Expression they want.

The therapists insist on 'living in a role' so that they, and you, can get a better judgement on if this is truly the right path for you. This doesn't imply that Gender Identity is as easily changed as just living in that 'role.'

Sarah

[Lisbeth]

Maybe I deserve a big 'duh' but I really don't understand what you're saying here in relationship to what Jonie wrote. Are you saying you were into men but didn't want to be considered gay?

No, she's saying unfortunately they wanted her to be a gay male instead of herself.

Posted on: July 24, 2007, 12:32:41 PM

Gender was a little ambiguous a word to use. Let me rephrase that to make it clearer...Gender Identity is 100% hard-coded, meaning you can't change your Gender Identity by any means, be it mental, physical, or otherwise. There have been cases where this has been tried and failed miserably. In the case of hermaphrodites, where the parents decide one gender for the baby and end up getting it wrong. This is due to the fact that just because of how you raise your child, what you try to instill in them, and how society perceives you, there is still the underlying fact of it all that you have the true identity of the opposite sex. What you are talking about is Gender Expression. What society perceives, and expects in most cases, is a certain Gender Expression that matches your birth sex. This has no bearing on your Gender Identity and anyone with any Gender Identity can posses whatever Gender Expression they want.

The majority of people do not understand the difference between Gender Identity and Gender Roles.  Gender roles are socialized.  Gender identity is not.

[Lisbeth]

No, she's saying unfortunately they wanted her to be a gay male instead of herself. .

Ah! ThankYou Liz! 

(you know i would have thought something like this would have been an very easy concept to grasp here - or am i just expressing myself badly?)

Not necessarily until you've been in a relationship where the difference mattered.

[Keira]

When I read this, I can almost hear Yogi Berra coming with a quote:

Gender's is 100% mental, the other 100%'s physical.