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Estrogen level very low

Started by Amy1988, May 29, 2014, 08:07:46 AM

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Amy1988

Wow! My estrogen level dropped from over 300 down to 20 normal male level.  Anyone know why that would happen? 
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KayXo

Depends when blood is drawn but that is quite a difference! Did you make any change to your HRT since last time or any change in general?
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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Ltl89

Hey,

I had a drop from my latest blood draw (around 120 down to 70) but I didn't take my hormones the morning of the drawing.  My endo said it was nothing to worry about.  However, this is quite a drop.  Did you do anything differently.  That could account for the changes.  And how do you take you meds?  Are you consistent with the times and method?  And have you talked to your doctor about it and get their opinion?
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JLT1

OK, that has happened to me.  I have a few questions....

1. What time of day was your last two draws?  (morning, at the same time is best)
2. Did your blood analysis go to the same laboratory? (there are some really bad labs out there)
3. Is our doctor open to a re-analysis?  (Sh*t happens during analysis – about 1 in 97 will be wrong)
4. Are you taking your E the same way each time?  I'm guessing your on oral and some types of food can change adsorption characteristics and from there, the blood levels.
5. Are you doing your T-blocker consistently?

Let's face it, if it were something major, you would be dead already so relax a little.

As for me, I'm intersexed and the messed up E levels was what started the search.  But only after we answered all of the questions first.

Hugs,

Jen
To move forward is to leave behind that which has become dear. It is a call into the wild, into becoming someone currently unknown to us. For most, it is a call too frightening and too challenging to heed. For some, it is a call to be more than we were capable of being, both now and in the future.
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Amy1988

Quote from: KayXo on May 29, 2014, 04:09:50 PM
Depends when blood is drawn but that is quite a difference! Did you make any change to your HRT since last time or any change in general?

No change.  The only thing I can think of is that they didn't bother actually checking that since they saw male and maybe figured it wasn't important so they just reported a normal level.  Or the Oestrogel I was taking I purchased off Amazon and maybe it's fake or just not any good.  But I have to say it looks legitimate.  It came in the right box, the right tube with the pamphlet and everything.  So who knows.
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Jessica Merriman

Quote from: Amy1988 on May 29, 2014, 05:12:37 PM
Or the Oestrogel I was taking I purchased off Amazon and maybe it's fake or just not any good.
This or it is expired. I wouldn't take anything I didn't get from a legitimate pharmacy. :)
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JLT1

Quote from: Amy1988 on May 29, 2014, 05:12:37 PM
No change.  The only thing I can think of is that they didn't bother actually checking that since they saw male and maybe figured it wasn't important so they just reported a normal level.  Or the Oestrogel I was taking I purchased off Amazon and maybe it's fake or just not any good.  But I have to say it looks legitimate.  It came in the right box, the right tube with the pamphlet and everything.  So who knows.

I'm doing the Divigel - very similar.  Mix each packet before applying by squeezing the unopened tube from each end.  Spread it out  - about 5" per tube/packet. Let it dry completely before getting dressed or going to bed.  Time post application can make a difference.  There should be an expiration date on the box so check it.   
To move forward is to leave behind that which has become dear. It is a call into the wild, into becoming someone currently unknown to us. For most, it is a call too frightening and too challenging to heed. For some, it is a call to be more than we were capable of being, both now and in the future.
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Amy1988

Quote from: JLT1 on May 29, 2014, 04:34:19 PM
OK, that has happened to me.  I have a few questions....

1. What time of day was your last two draws?  (morning, at the same time is best)
2. Did your blood analysis go to the same laboratory? (there are some really bad labs out there)
3. Is our doctor open to a re-analysis?  (Sh*t happens during analysis – about 1 in 97 will be wrong)
4. Are you taking your E the same way each time?  I'm guessing your on oral and some types of food can change adsorption characteristics and from there, the blood levels.
5. Are you doing your T-blocker consistently?

Let's face it, if it were something major, you would be dead already so relax a little.

As for me, I'm intersexed and the messed up E levels was what started the search.  But only after we answered all of the questions first.

Hugs,

Jen

1: the first draw was I think in the afternoon probably after I had already applied the estrogel.  The second draw was early in the morning 8:00AM before I applied it.  So not consistent at all.
2: I'm not sure but I went to two different doctors at different places and even different states but both were affiliated with Carolina health systems.
3: he's going recheck in 3 months now that I'm using estrogel pump purchased at a real pharmacy and not from Amazon.com  ::)
4: I apply at about the same time each day but it was a topical gel in a tube not a pump like I have now so it was hard to meter.
5: I never had a T blocker til now. 
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Amy1988

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on May 29, 2014, 05:16:38 PM
This or it is expired. I wouldn't take anything I didn't get from a legitimate pharmacy. :)

The date is good.  For the first test I was taking estrogel I purchased from Inhouse pharmacy which gave me the good results but second test was from Amazon purchase.
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Ltl89

I know very little about the gels, so I can't comment on that.  I would just exercise caution when buying medication from an outside vendor on amazon, especially for something like this.  Good luck and hope it works out.
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teeg

Quote from: Amy1988 on May 29, 2014, 05:12:37 PMOr the Oestrogel I was taking I purchased off Amazon and maybe it's fake or just not any good.
I'm sorry but this to me is really strange. HRT is no less serious than any other medical complication and should both monitored AND facilitated by a medical professional, hopefully an endocrinologist who's experienced in transgender related treatment. Hormones are no less important than any other medications. You cannot fully trust or verify the purity of any medication bought from anything else other than accredited pharmacies, as well as no matter how much you've, "researched" you cannot safely diagnose or conduct your own hormonal healthcare. I don't even believe (off the top of my head) that oestrogel is a proper substance for hormone replacement/supplementation, it's a weak topical agent meant for women experiencing hot flashes, not people with complete estrogen depletion.
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Amy1988

Quote from: teeg on May 29, 2014, 06:31:38 PM
I'm sorry but this to me is really strange. HRT is no less serious than any other medical complication and should both monitored AND facilitated by a medical professional, hopefully an endocrinologist who's experienced in transgender related treatment. Hormones are no less important than any other medications. You cannot fully trust or verify the purity of any medication bought from anything else other than accredited pharmacies, as well as no matter how much you've, "researched" you cannot safely diagnose or conduct your own hormonal healthcare. I don't even believe (off the top of my head) that oestrogel is a proper substance for hormone replacement/supplementation, it's a weak topical agent meant for women experiencing hot flashes, not people with complete estrogen depletion.

Well the estrogel I'm currently taking was prescribed by a doctor who is experienced in transgender care.  He did tell me however that if the next blood test shows low levels he may place me on pill form.  I don't really want pill form because the gel is much safer but I will if I have to.  Also my levels were high at the first check while on a gel form.
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Hayley

Don't want to hijack your thread but I am having similar issues. I was on pill form for the first few months of my transition. My endo switched me to estrogel. Just got my first level check since then and I am nearly back into male ranges. It is rather depressing. I really just don't know. I think it is time for a new endo. Or see about injections.
Byes!!!! It's been real but this place isn't for me. Good luck in the future everyone.
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Amy1988

Quote from: Hayley on May 29, 2014, 08:17:41 PM
Don't want to hijack your thread but I am having similar issues. I was on pill form for the first few months of my transition. My endo switched me to estrogel. Just got my first level check since then and I am nearly back into male ranges. It is rather depressing. I really just don't know. I think it is time for a new endo. Or see about injections.

I don't understand it either.  I've only used the gel and at one time my E levels were over 300 on the gel form.  I'll see how this new stuff does.
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Monkeymel

Estrogel is a topical gel typically used to provide an additional daily balance. My estradot patches provide the daily dose and never had issues. However my endo is highly clued up and advised that I should never apply estrogel on same day to the arm which will have blood drawn. The reason was that the topical cream can remain localized and spike the blood sample drawn.

If you know your getting a test make sure the HRT protocol is followed properly for a day or two before hand. That way they can see the true values.
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Beverly

Quote from: Amy1988 on May 29, 2014, 06:53:15 PM
I don't really want pill form because the gel is much safer but I will if I have to.

My endo specialises in trans patients and put me on pills. I asked him about the "dangers" because I am well over 40 years old. He told me that the dangers relate to premarin and ethyl estradiol neither of which are used any more. He told me that modern medications are bioidentical and put no strain on the liver.

So I can believe an Endo with experience of thousands of trans patients or .... people on the internet.

As long as you are on Estradial Valerate or HemiHydrate then you have nothing to worry about.
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teeg

Quote from: Amy1988 on May 29, 2014, 06:53:15 PMI don't really want pill form because the gel is much safer but I will if I have to.
"Safety" of bypassing the liver in my opinion is a non issue. As long as you don't have pre-existing liver complications it won't effect you in the slightest. In fact, I had been taking estradiol (tablets) sublingually and recently discovered huge discrepensies in my levels, seen here https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,165617.msg1432836.html#msg1432836.

Topical estrogens could be compared to sublingual administration in terms of level variance. Such varying levels can't be healthy for the body or progress.
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Amy1988

Quote from: teeg on May 30, 2014, 11:53:12 AM
"Safety" of bypassing the liver in my opinion is a non issue. As long as you don't have pre-existing liver complications it won't effect you in the slightest. In fact, I had been taking estradiol (tablets) sublingually and recently discovered huge discrepensies in my levels, seen here https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,165617.msg1432836.html#msg1432836.

Topical estrogens could be compared to sublingual administration in terms of level variance. Such varying levels can't be healthy for the body or progress.

I go back to see the doctor next week and I think they will probably do more blood work. If my E level is still low then it will be obvious that I'm not absorbing it and he wii probably put me on pill form.
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JLT1

All,

I am the endocrine expert at a Fortune 50 Industrial Company that has 55,000 products and sales of $31 billion.  I have PhDs in Analytical Chemistry, Inorganic Chemistry and Molecular Toxicology. Part of my job is to make sure nothing we produce interacts with the endocrine system.  That means I know a lot about how it works and how it works in conjunction with metabolism. 

Last I looked (about 8 months ago) there were 18 estrogen types available for use.  All had purported advantages and disadvantages.  You and your doctor have to find a delivery mechanism and a type of estrogen that works for you.  You also have to determine the levels you should be at as there is no real agreement out there in the medical community. This is in part because the effectiveness of E is also dependant on the levels of T and possibly progesterone (plus others that no one talks about but that I have to worry about) so things get complicated.  A rule of thumb in the medical community seems to be female normal if progesterone is included.  Female normal +20% E and -50% T if no progesterone.  Injections are tried and true.  Pills can be good but may not be.   Blah, blah, find the one that works.

As far as "bioidentical hormones"  From Harvard Medical Publications – 2006 – "The interest in a more natural approach to hormone therapy has focused attention on bioidentical hormones — hormones that are identical in molecular structure to the hormones women make in their bodies. They're not found in this form in nature but are made, or synthesized, from a plant chemical extracted from yams and soy. Bioidentical estrogens are 17 beta-estradiol, estrone, and estriol. (Estradiol is the form of estrogen that decreases at menopause.) Bioidentical progesterone is simply progesterone. It's micronized (finely ground) in the laboratory for better absorption in the body.
Bioidentical hormone therapy is often called "natural hormone therapy" because bioidentical hormones act in the body just like the hormones we produce. But here again, that tricky word natural muddies the waters. Pregnant mares' urine is natural, but Premarin is not bioidentical, at least not to human estrogen. The same goes for Cenestin, which is made from plants but is not bioidentical.
Technically, the body can't distinguish bioidentical hormones from the ones your ovaries produce. On a blood test, your total estradiol reflects the bioidentical estradiol you've taken as well as the estradiol your body makes. On the other hand, Premarin is metabolized into various forms of estrogen that aren't measured by standard laboratory tests. Proponents of bioidentical hormones say that one advantage of bioidentical estrogen over Premarin is that estrogen levels can be monitored more precisely and treatment individualized accordingly. Skeptics counter that it hardly matters, because no one knows exactly what hormone levels to aim for, and symptoms, not levels, should be treated and monitored."  To me, there is identical and non-identical.  Then there is what I am concerned about..how reactive is that substance when compared to estradiol, esterone and estriol?..what is the bioavailability compared to estradiol, esterone and estriol?  Plus another 20 or so other questions.  A person can crank around doses of things to get more or less the same effect. Which is what doctors are doing - for good or bad.

Me?  I use a "bioidentical" estrogen cream.  I do have a metabolic disorder.  It's one of the problems DES sons sometimes have.  I'm also allergic to the  acrylates that are used in patches.  The sublingual method should work but I'd like to see data from controlled trials not guesses made by a doctor.  I'd do injections if I needed to but the cream is working fantastic – for me.

Jen
To move forward is to leave behind that which has become dear. It is a call into the wild, into becoming someone currently unknown to us. For most, it is a call too frightening and too challenging to heed. For some, it is a call to be more than we were capable of being, both now and in the future.
  •  

Amy1988

Quote from: JLT1 on May 30, 2014, 04:48:26 PM
All,

I am the endocrine expert at a Fortune 50 Industrial Company that has 55,000 products and sales of $31 billion.  I have PhDs in Analytical Chemistry, Inorganic Chemistry and Molecular Toxicology. Part of my job is to make sure nothing we produce interacts with the endocrine system.  That means I know a lot about how it works and how it works in conjunction with metabolism. 

Last I looked (about 8 months ago) there were 18 estrogen types available for use.  All had purported advantages and disadvantages.  You and your doctor have to find a delivery mechanism and a type of estrogen that works for you.  You also have to determine the levels you should be at as there is no real agreement out there in the medical community. This is in part because the effectiveness of E is also dependant on the levels of T and possibly progesterone (plus others that no one talks about but that I have to worry about) so things get complicated.  A rule of thumb in the medical community seems to be female normal if progesterone is included.  Female normal +20% E and -50% T if no progesterone.  Injections are tried and true.  Pills can be good but may not be.   Blah, blah, find the one that works.

As far as "bioidentical hormones"  From Harvard Medical Publications – 2006 – "The interest in a more natural approach to hormone therapy has focused attention on bioidentical hormones — hormones that are identical in molecular structure to the hormones women make in their bodies. They're not found in this form in nature but are made, or synthesized, from a plant chemical extracted from yams and soy. Bioidentical estrogens are 17 beta-estradiol, estrone, and estriol. (Estradiol is the form of estrogen that decreases at menopause.) Bioidentical progesterone is simply progesterone. It's micronized (finely ground) in the laboratory for better absorption in the body.
Bioidentical hormone therapy is often called "natural hormone therapy" because bioidentical hormones act in the body just like the hormones we produce. But here again, that tricky word natural muddies the waters. Pregnant mares' urine is natural, but Premarin is not bioidentical, at least not to human estrogen. The same goes for Cenestin, which is made from plants but is not bioidentical.
Technically, the body can't distinguish bioidentical hormones from the ones your ovaries produce. On a blood test, your total estradiol reflects the bioidentical estradiol you've taken as well as the estradiol your body makes. On the other hand, Premarin is metabolized into various forms of estrogen that aren't measured by standard laboratory tests. Proponents of bioidentical hormones say that one advantage of bioidentical estrogen over Premarin is that estrogen levels can be monitored more precisely and treatment individualized accordingly. Skeptics counter that it hardly matters, because no one knows exactly what hormone levels to aim for, and symptoms, not levels, should be treated and monitored."  To me, there is identical and non-identical.  Then there is what I am concerned about..how reactive is that substance when compared to estradiol, esterone and estriol?..what is the bioavailability compared to estradiol, esterone and estriol?  Plus another 20 or so other questions.  A person can crank around doses of things to get more or less the same effect. Which is what doctors are doing - for good or bad.

Me?  I use a "bioidentical" estrogen cream.  I do have a metabolic disorder.  It's one of the problems DES sons sometimes have.  I'm also allergic to the  acrylates that are used in patches.  The sublingual method should work but I'd like to see data from controlled trials not guesses made by a doctor.  I'd do injections if I needed to but the cream is working fantastic – for me.

Jen

Where can I find a list and description of the 18 estrogen types you mentioned.  My doctor is probably only familiar with just a few. 
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