Gender "Equality"

[Olivia P]

As you may notice by my icon under my name I am news staff, and throughout my days I go through lots of articles on the topics of trans, gender and sex. Something I've noticed is that the majority of reports about Gender Equality focus 100% on the natal Male/Female balance and make no mention of any other part about gender. Some articles even seem to claim that gender equality is very present today.

Surely Gender Equality will never be a reality until all gender variances are officially recognized by all levels of society?

Not just natal female and male...

[Jo-is-amazing]

I think it's just a matter of going out there and getting our voices heard, which luckily has happened a lot recently <3 ,
For those that identify as non-binary though, It will be very difficult to reach the point of 'equality', just from the fact that, the reality is that those that present as truly androgynous, gender-queer or any other variation of Gender are in the minority, of the minority in the trans* community.

The simple truth that there are so few people living that way, and even fewer in the public eye, means that it could be really hard to get to that stage

[Olivia P]

Yeah, well that's why groups got equality in the order they did, it seems to have naturally happened in order of how many people are affected.

I fear Intersex people may also have a much harder fight for recognition and equality too as there seems to be less visibility. My friend has spent her life being forced to go through the trans pathway as she is 47 xxy, but the people she has to deal with took the opinion that if you have a Y chromosome you are male. And, well, it just isnt as simple as that, sex and gender is complicated.

[Natkat]

Thats true, its also Why it Can be problematic if you have Laws agenst diskriminations base on sex since Many only focus on the binary and cisgenders People.

[Jess42]

OK, honest to God, I see no gender equality anywhere I look. I'm not saying there isn't inequality but in my area there are more females are in a lot higher positions in corporations and companies than males. This is my observations of cisgenders though. Transgenders still get the same ol' crap though.

[androgynouspainter26]

I think gender equality normally deals with the binary system because that's currently the dominant power structure-while it's not an encompassing moment, it's covering the needs of most, though not all members of society...besides, something tells me that once women are considered truly equal to men, current structures surrounding gender will rapidly crumble-besides, the movement isn't entirely exclusionary.  Transfemminism is becoming a more and more mainstream ideal.  Especially for younger people, the end may not be near, but it's certainly well in sight.

[sad panda]

There will not be gender equality until there are no genders... 

[Declan.]

There will not be gender equality until there are no genders... 

There will always be genders. You seem to be confusing "gender" with "gender roles."

[androgynouspainter26]

Who's to say that there will always be gender?  There isn't really much biological basis for the existence of gender (outside physical traits, and hormonal effects on the brain).  I dream of a world without it, personally.

[Declan.]

Who's to say that there will always be gender?  There isn't really much biological basis for the existence of gender (outside physical traits, and hormonal effects on the brain).  I dream of a world without it, personally.

As long as we develop in an organic womb where we are exposed to hormonal washes, there will always be gender. Gender isn't something that can stop existing. Kids who have been operated on to "correct" ambiguous genitalia growing up clearly the "wrong gender" they're being raised as are enough evidence of that - David Reimer being an unfortunate example - on top of dozens of recent peer-reviewed studies.

Gender roles are different.

[androgynouspainter26]

Well, I'd argue that what you're referring to as gender is really just "mental sex"-which sex is indicated in the brain's internal map.  I suppose it all comes down to how you define gender.  I think of gender as being a lot more than which body you expect yourself to have.  So while it's obvious that this exists, masculinity and femininity, the categorization of anything besides a brain's map of the body as gender isn't real outside of a social context.

[Declan.]

Well, I'd argue that what you're referring to as gender is really just "mental sex"-which sex is indicated in the brain's internal map.  I suppose it all comes down to how you define gender.  I think of gender as being a lot more than which body you expect yourself to have.  So while it's obvious that this exists, masculinity and femininity, the categorization of anything besides a brain's map of the body as gender isn't real outside of a social context.

Mental sex and gender generally have the same definition, so it's possible we're misunderstanding each other.

[androgynouspainter26]

Ahhh, probably-I've heard the word tossed around so many times, the definition has been lost beneath a sea of identity politics!

[Declan.]

Ahhh, probably-I've heard the word tossed around so many times, the definition has been lost beneath a sea of identity politics!

It certainly has; I read your post again, and I agree with you now that I understand what you're saying. I tend to use "gender" and "gender identity" interchangeably.

[sad panda]

There will always be genders. You seem to be confusing "gender" with "gender roles."

No I am not. But I don't believe there can be gender withiut gender roles... That would just be called sex. Sure, maybe there is mental sex vs physical sex, idk. but I personally don't believe in gender identity and stuff and have not seen any evidence that there is some kind of gender wiring in the brain beyond normal sex dimorphism.

[Felix]

When I was reading articles for news, "gender" often was used as shorthand for "female." That wasn't so much upsetting as it was counterproductive. I had to be very specific in searches in order to get news that was actually relevant to transgender people.

Intersex as a category is a touchy issue for me. I do not believe there is any noteworthy difference between intersex people and transgender people, and the gatekeeping between the two identities is weird.

I find it frustrating that anyone is of the opinion that gender equality exists anywhere. It's not even ambiguous. The only people who believe we have achieved gender equality are those who are comfortable, and do not themselves get reminded of the imbalance very often. That's like a white person in a white neighborhood saying that race relations are fine.

For what it's worth, regarding genders and gender roles, I'm sure that erasing gender would not help me. I feel like a real man, a normal guy, and I don't want my malehood invalidated by abolishment of my gender orientation. The idea is noble enough, but not practical.

Some people have a similar argument about marriage equality - they say they don't believe in marriage, so we shouldn't be fighting for it. Gender and marriage both could do with some open discussion, but I'm still a man and I still want the right to marry another person. It's not fair for any of us to impose our definitions on people who can't adhere to them.

[sad panda]

Intersex as a category is a touchy issue for me. I do not believe there is any noteworthy difference between intersex people and transgender people, and the gatekeeping between the two identities is weird.

What do you mean by gatekeeping between those communities? intersex is first and foremost a spectrum of medical conditions (different from transgender) rather than an identity.

For what it's worth, regarding genders and gender roles, I'm sure that erasing gender would not help me. I feel like a real man, a normal guy, and I don't want my malehood invalidated by abolishment of my gender orientation. The idea is noble enough, but not practical.

Malehood is different than manhood. Man is a gender, male is a sex... umh, but why would you care about being a man if it ceased to mean anything anyway? If it was just a word with no definition? Do you need to be recognized as a man or as a male? What's problematic is "man" can only exist in the first place as defined by oppressive stereotypes. If it's not about exclusionary stereotypes it's either completely arbitrary... or redundant (sex is enough to describe it.)

[androgynouspainter26]

I think what he's saying is that being transgender is also a medical condition...an identity is something you choose to take up for yourself, and nobody should ever permanently alter their body beyond the odd piercing in the name of identity.  I'm fairly sure that the only difference between someone like me and an intersexual person is that my condition exists within the structures of my brain, and for them it would exist between their legs.  I know it's not a popular position, but the only way to justify the use of Hormones, SRS, etc. for people like us is to acknowledge that dyspohria is a very real medical condition.

And just to weigh in here as well, if you were born into a world without gender, you might want your body to be a certain way, but you wouldn't think anything of "malehood".  I suppose for all of us who have been born into it, the gender complex is comforting, but I still think the world would be better off without it.

[sad panda]

I think what he's saying is that being transgender is also a medical condition...an identity is something you choose to take up for yourself, and nobody should ever permanently alter their body beyond the odd piercing in the name of identity.  I'm fairly sure that the only difference between someone like me and an intersexual person is that my condition exists within the structures of my brain, and for them it would exist between their legs.  I know it's not a popular position, but the only way to justify the use of Hormones, SRS, etc. for people like us is to acknowledge that dyspohria is a very real medical condition.

But hormones, SRS, etc are already justified and accessible to anyone who claims to need them... there is no issue there. Trans people are fighting this fight that they already won a long time ago... I think if you needed medical proof to get those things it would result in EXCLUDING a lot of trans people from transition.

Meanwhile intersex children are still being mutilated without the ability to consent. Calling trans people intersex is just overshadowing people with medically diagnosable DSDs for no reason.

Trans is not medically diagnosable beyond subjective experience, it is very different. no need to overshadow people in need of attention.

[helen2010]

Sat on a panel at a Diversity Conference earlier in the week - got to love how quickly diversity was conflated with gender equity and then in turn conflated with binary gender equity.   After some spirited discussion of definitions, norms etc the consensus emerged that this whole discussion needs to be reset in terms of addressing equity for individuals and understanding diversity of individuals in all of its myriad forms.  Frankly gender is too frequently appropriated and used as a stalking horse by one special interest group after another.  With the emerging view that there are as many genders as there are people we may just have an opportunity to reframe, reset and sensibly address real issues defined according to an agreed taxonomy.

Aisle