"Are you trans?" - best way to approach this??

[Ms Grace]

Hey guys!

I have a friend who runs a choir - a recent recruit who is presenting as female "dresses as male", has a "male haircut" and wants to sing tenor but when there are no tenor parts in a song would rather not join the sopranos as it's "too girly" (their words). My friend posed this to me, wondering if this person might be a "not out" trans guy. Personally I wouldn't have a clue, they might be trans, they might be a really butch lesbian, or they might just not like singing sop. How should I know?

Anyway, he was wondering if he should approach this situation and, if so, how?

The choir is very progressive, open and accepting of diversity so there would be no problem with the person being out - but I know myself, that doesn't necessarily make coming out any easier, especially when you're feeling a bit fragile and the concept of being out seems like a million miles away. I would imagine having someone saying "hey, are you trans, because if you are that's cool with us" might still be more humiliating than comforting. And if the person wasn't trans it probably wouldn't go down well.

So I said to my friend that I would bring the question to you guys. Should he broach the subject? If so, how? Better instead to say nothing and let the person find their own way even if him saying something could short-circuit months of this person feeling dysphoric? How would you feel, pre-transition, if someone said "hey, are you trans, because if you are that's cool with us"?

[Kiwi]

I would have dreamed to be asked like that in a group. It never happened and the best thing I get is to pass as a guy. But no one ever think me as transgender unless I tell.

I think you can talk to her, do it yourself don't let a cis person do it. Of course with discretion and in a friendly good way, trying to not pressure. Probably, if she's new to the choir, you should try to get to know that person more so maybe she can open up about her feelings. (I used female pronouns because we don't know if she is trans guy or just a masculine girl)

[Tysilio]

I would imagine having someone saying "hey, are you trans, because if you are that's cool with us" might still be more humiliating than comforting. And if the person wasn't trans it probably wouldn't go down well.

This.

It's great that your friend wants to be open and accepting, but I think he's overreaching here. That's a really personal question to ask someone you're just getting to know, especially in the context of something like a choir, where people share a common interest but aren't necessarily expecting to be friends outside of that environment.

There are lots of other ways to make someone feel included in a group: ask more typical getting-to-know-you questions; if members socialize away from the group, include them in invitations; ask their opinion about some decision or choice the group needs to make.... etc., etc.

In other words, show acceptance -- don't make a production out of it. And the same goes for which parts the person wants to sing... what's the problem with their doing whatever the other tenors do when there's no part for them? I presume there's no pressure for the male tenors to sing soprano when that happens... 

My gut feeling is that this may be more about your friend's own needs than those of this new member: perhaps he is seeking an opportunity to prove what a good, accepting guy he is? He doesn't need to do that at someone else's expense...

[Ayden]

I would advise asking basic  questions and seeing where it goes. It could just be a woman with a deep voice. I would not make assumptions based on how the person looks. I have gotten mistaken as a butch enough to know its really insulting depending on the situation. I know butch lesbians who would balk at being asked if they are trans. Even the butch I know is really accepting. She would punch a man out for asking her if she was trans just as fast as she punched a guy for asking me if I was. Cautious and discrete is the way to go. If she makes it clear she's a woman, take it for what it is. If he says "I'm in the male section" take it for what it is.

[FTMDiaries]

Personally I wouldn't have a clue, they might be trans, they might be a really butch lesbian, or they might just not like singing sop. How should I know?

A better question might be: why should you know? (or more appropriately, why should your friend know?)

I don't believe this person's gender is anybody's business but their own. It may be human nature to be curious, but it is intrusive to question somebody's gender if you don't have a good reason for doing so. And I haven't yet heard a good reason.

Perhaps saying something more general about the choir being LGBT-friendly might be appropriate. That way, if this person is trans* (or a lesbian), it would help them feel safe & included and would give them an opportunity to come out if they wish. But if I were you, I'd gently advise your friend to drop the subject and respect this person's privacy.

My gut feeling is that this may be more about your friend's own needs than those of this new member: perhaps he is seeking an opportunity to prove what a good, accepting guy he is? He doesn't need to do this at at someone else's expense...

^ This.

[LordKAT]

I would be offended. Keep any trans questions away unless the information is offered.

[TerriT]

How about it's none of their business. If your choir is so accepting, then just accept whoever this person is and leave it at that. It's nobody else's duty to be all intrusive with such a deeply invasive line of questioning.

[wheat thins are delicious]

I agree with those saying that asking is intrusive and unnecessary. 

[crowcrow223]

Yeah, just ignore this topic, don't bring it up. Just in case.

[Ms Grace]

Thanks for your thoughts and feedback, everyone. They reflect what I thought when my friend asked me.

I guess the underlying issue is whether the person can even sing tenor (they only just joined, have been to one rehearsal and haven't been properly auditioned yet, whatever that involves I've got no idea!). My friend imagines it may become problematic if the person is really more in the sop range and shouldn't (yet) be singing tenor at all. As choir director he's concerned that telling the person they should really be soprano could be triggering for them if they are trans. I can't imagine how him knowing one way or the other would make a difference; if the person isn't a tenor like they claim, they're not a tenor. When it comes to choirs this seems to be a more important distinction than someone's gender. But yeah, potentially a dysphoria trigger I'd imagine. (From my own very brief foray into community choirs years ago I know I really wanted to be a soprano, not a tenor. )

[Adam (birkin)]

I can see why this is a tough call. If they do ID as a guy, being called "she" could be hurtful even if they aren't out. So perhaps your friend just wants to see if he can make this person more comfortable by acknowledging who they are inside. but honestly, I think I would just leave it, for the reasons others have said.

Before I passed more consistently, I had people ask the trans question and I was *mortified* lol. I also felt upset because it reinforced the feeling that I didn't look like my target sex yet, even though they were trying to be inclusive.

And butch lesbians hate the trans question, at least from what I've observed.

I'd just go with what this person wants. Try to keep them out of soprano if possible, and create an environment that is open so that if they do want to come out, they feel they can. If not, then it's all gravy.

[Tysilio]

...if the person isn't a tenor like they claim, they're not a tenor.... But yeah, potentially a dysphoria trigger I'd imagine.

While it's kind to want to avoid "triggering" someone's dysphoria (or whatever negative emotions they're at risk for), at a certain point, in the real world, it's not the responsibility of other people to do that. I believe that in the long run, it's far more respectful to treat people honestly, and not to belittle them by assuming that they "can't handle" certain things.

It's demeaning to intrude on someone's privacy because you think they might need protecting. Just keep things on a professional level. Any adult who wants to join something like a choir should understand that if there's an audition involved, they might flunk it, or that the answer may be "no" if they want to sing a part they're not able to. (And if they can't understand that, they're not good material for the group anyway.)

[Eva Marie]

Why doesn't your friend simply ask the person in which range they prefer to sing? Takes care of the whole issue.

[AlexW]

Being female bodied and not on hormones doesn't mean you can't be a tenor. I'm Pre-T and have done nothing to deepen my voice, but I'm still a tenor, so 'might not really be a tenor' seems like an excuse for curiosity. Like said earlier, he should just keep it professional.

[AdamMLP]

The most I would do is stick up a poster if that's something that's possible in the place they sing.

I've had someone ask me if I was trans before, or more tell me that they think they know what the matter is (I was a crying mess at the time), and although I was glad she spoke up, because I was trying to find the words to tell her, there was fear that other people might figure it out as well.  I was pretending to be female at the time, so it was pretty nervewracking that someone could tell, even though it was pretty reaffirming to know that someone could see I was male despite everything they'd been told about me.

[Hikari]

When complaining about the financial strain of medical problems on OOC chat in Eve Online, another transwoman private messaged me to ask if I was trans. I suppose though there are other things that could have met the criteria of medical conditions not always covered by insurance.

I was thankful she reached out, because it was nice to meet another MTF, and we had lots in common (that and she has been a nemesis of mine in game for a long time ). At the same point, what if I hadn't been trans? Or what if the message hadn't been private but in the main chat itself? I couldn't imagine that would feel good, I am not ashamed of being trans, it isn't even a secret but I don't really want to be bothered with a big public disclosure either.

So, from my point of view, there is no best way to approach it. If the person in question's voice isn't good for the position in the choir and that becomes a problem, deal with it then.

[Nicodeme]

This person needs to be categorized based on their actual vocal type and, while well-intentioned, your friend is super misguided.

If he's worrying about saying "soprano" perhaps he can use the phrase "countertenor"?

[Ms Grace]

Thanks for the feedback everyone - I have told my friend not to raise the subject of whether the new choir member is trans, to audition the person based on their their voice and their voice alone - if they can sing tenor then great but don't pressure them to sing with the sops when the choir sings songs that have no tenor parts.

[FTMDiaries]

Thanks for the feedback everyone - I have told my friend not to raise the subject of whether the new choir member is trans, to audition the person based on their their voice and their voice alone - if they can sing tenor then great but don't pressure them to sing with the sops when the choir sings songs that have no tenor parts.

Perfect! Thanks Grace.

[aleon515]

Pre-T I was able to sing tenor and did in college. That said it wasn't really a tenor voice. I believe the voice isn't resonant enough pre-T but that doesn't mean someone couldn't sing there.
I was normally alto though. But some people do have a very good range.

--Jay

Being female bodied and not on hormones doesn't mean you can't be a tenor. I'm Pre-T and have done nothing to deepen my voice, but I'm still a tenor, so 'might not really be a tenor' seems like an excuse for curiosity. Like said earlier, he should just keep it professional.