**Trigger Warning** Trans woman brutally attacked in Little Five Points

[Evelyn K]

Of course not. But you can't deny in a dangerous world - you need to check yourself.

[Eris]

Looking at that video I would say that it has clearly been edited (by the obvious cuts) to show only what she's saying and not what the others were doing to provoke her. The inclusion of the violence at the end seems to suggest that the video producer thought it was acceptable and warranted and that they were showing the punishment that they "deserved" for being trans and daring to stand up for themselves.

Evelyn, you may be making practical suggestions about dealing with a dangerous situation in an imperfect world. Yes it might be foolish to stand up to a crowd who could beat you up, I wonder how far the american civil rights movement would have gone if all black people had been too afraid of violence to speak out...
Your use of language here does make it seem like you feel it was all her fault.

[/quote]

If you are that irresponsible for your safety in the face of a pack mentality, then I have nothing else to say.

The bystanders where giggling because she was obviously making a fool out of herself. Then somebody finally got fed up.

You never blame the victim.

Would you say that a woman wearing "provocative clothing" was asking to be raped?

It's difficult to make out what's being said on the video, but I'm pretty sure they aren't shouting "Please brutalise me! I need you to kick my face in!"

The ones at fault here were the assailants! Lady Oracle is correct, if assault is still a crime in Georgia then the people involved need to be arrested.

[Evelyn K]

Look in the end I realize the assailants are ultimately wrong. That's a no brainer. But the victim has some bearing on responsibility for that. The video is telling.

Also there was no reason for Xenguy to neg me in the first place. I simply brought attention to some sociological street facts Xenguy might not have thought about. The neg back was legitimate.

[Eris]

The video is telling.

It doesn't bother you that the video was obviously edited from the frames lost and the shifts in perspective to only show responses and not possible provocation?

Also there was no reason for Xenoguy to neg me in the first place. I simply brought attention to some sociological street facts Xenoguy might not have thought about.

He did so because your use of language makes it sound as though you are blaming the victim. Which Is Wrong.

I think what you're trying to convey is that they behaved in a way which provoked the violence they suffered, that standing up to a crowd may (you seem to be saying WILL!) lead to violence.

Of course not. But you can't deny in a dangerous world - you need to check yourself.

Whilst you may be trying to explain that that is the unfortunate reality of the situation there, what the rest of us are trying to make clear to you is that that status quo is unacceptable.
Some of what you have said seems to suggest that if we were to stand up for ourself in that situation it would be acceptable for us to be beaten up in response.
This may not be what you're trying to say, however that is how it is coming across to me and I'm actively trying to look at it in a favourable light.
It seems like you are saying "this is how things are, it isn't going to change, get over it."

[Evelyn K]

It doesn't bother you that the video was obviously edited from the frames lost and the shifts in perspective to only show responses and not possible provocation?

Take the video at face value and pretend there where no edits. Yes there's a possibility that somebody may have placed a "kick me" sign on her back, but irregardless interpret the video as it is. Do you *not* see that she is escalating the situation?

He did so because your use of language makes it sound as though you are blaming the victim. Which Is Wrong.

The video cuts, so following on with your logic that the video may have been edited, maybe there's a possibility that she spat at the assailant or something otherwise?

It can be suspect either way in favor of her, or in favor of the assailant.

I think what you're trying to convey is that they behaved in a way which provoked the violence they suffered, that standing up to a crowd may (you seem to be saying WILL!) lead to violence.

If your not in good company, it sure might. LOL.

Whilst you may be trying to explain that that is the unfortunate reality of the situation there, what the rest of us are trying to make clear to you is that that status quo is unacceptable.

So stand up to it without using any tact and see what happens - like she did.

Some of what you have said seems to suggest that if we were to stand up for ourself in that situation it would be acceptable for us to be beaten up in response.

You're putting words in my mouth. Sometimes standing down is the only way to de-escalate and would sure seem like common sense when outnumbered.

This may not be what you're trying to say, however that is how it is coming across to me and I'm actively trying to look at it in a favourable light.
It seems like you are saying "this is how things are, it isn't going to change, get over it."

Unfortunately you're right. It's not my wish, it's just reality.

What I was trying to explain was that FA who is an admin and ultimately makes these decisions has told me that negative retaliation for receiving negative rep is never legitimate, you should instead send him a mail and if he feels it is warranted he will remove the neg from your profile. As I suspect he will from Xenguy when he reads what you've posted here.

C'est la vie

[Jennygirl]

Everyone please stop arguing. This is a terrible video to watch. ugh.

The victim does seem to be drunk or high, but that gives no reason for the jerk who stomped her face to take such an action. Sickening...

I too cringed when I saw the way the to-be-victim was responding. That is clearly a situation you walk away from or de-escalate as quickly as possible, but that doesn't make it their fault... at all.

Evelyn I never got the impression that you think it is totally her fault. Let's not back Evelyn up into a corner here. I think both of the negative rep points here are silly. I hope you can work out this misunderstanding over PM. This is the last subject we need to be fighting over after hearing this bit of news.

[Eris]

This is the last subject we need to be fighting over after hearing this bit of news.

Perhaps you're right, this dialogue does appear to be becoming more heated and less productive.

Can I ask just how common is this sort of violence in America?

From what's been said on both sides I feel I'm reading the situation differently because of my upbringing.

I was going to write:

"Whilst violence definitely occurs in Scotland, in my life I've never seen any kind of group attack or heard of bystanders just watching someone be beaten up in this manner."

Then I remembered that I've been attacked by two people at once whilst a group looked on and didn't intervene.
Mind you we were 12/13, that fight was over very quickly and no one tried to stomp on my face.
They just struck me over the head with a heavy object then laid into me whilst I was still blinded from the initial blow.

If anything, in my experience Scottish people try too hard to be accepting of others.
They go up to people in ethnic minorities and other minority groups and tell them how great it is to see them doing so well for themselves... which I'm not sure is particularly flattering.
It's like suggesting that they've overcome a disability

Then again I don't live in Glasgow...

[Jennygirl]

In the wrong part of town I'm sure it happens very frequently in America. Jerks are everywhere, and some are maniacal. I don't know if that tidbit is so much related to America, though. Verbally challenging a psychotically agressive group of people could result terribly regardless of how you look.

And thanks for the understanding on the heatedness. Hopefully all the arguing is over now!

[Felix]

"Can I ask just how common is this sort of violence in America?"

It is very common, to the point that most of us are conditioned to keep it in the family (or in the community) or at least not ever name names or press charges. If you do go to the police, nothing happens. Even if I take out times I've been personally assaulted (I'm clearly biased, and can't always be logical as to why I was attacked) I've got countless experiences where I saw a person say or do the wrong thing and get hit for it. We make excuses for it, push it away, try not to think about it, but violence is very normal in our culture.

Not having lived anywhere else, I assume that violence isn't out of the ordinary in most countries, and we just have varying degrees of tolerance. Where I live, we like to think that vulnerable people can always get help. We take our violent impulses and mostly channel them into blowing people's faces off in video games or into first responder training for when the terrorists show up. I'm of course ambivalent about all this. I could live in the most peaceful nation on earth and I'd probably still be twitchy about emotional and physical abuse.

Plus I've still got a chip on my shoulder about people on the street attacking one another. Seriously, some of these urban hubs are the safest places available for certain people, and if they aren't at least as safe as chicago or los angeles that's pretty messed up.

[dalebert]

Back when I lived in Atlanta (it's where I grew up), I recall hearing that L5P had the highest violent crime rate in the country and I understand Atlanta in general is pretty high. Seemed difficult to believe at the time. When I've been there, it didn't particularly feel that way. I don't think I've ever been there at night. I'm glad to now be in one of the lowest crime rate areas in the country.

[suzifrommd]

Can I ask just how common is this sort of violence in America?

Really depends on the context. I've lived 52 years in America and never seen this sort of violence. But I don't move in the circles where this sort of thing is condoned and commonplace.

As for the video, very hard to tell what happened. I agree that the victim appears compromised (high, drunk, or limited). It's not clear how the fight started. The only part of the violence we see is the victim on the ground being kicked in the face. Not clear if the kicker is putting all his weight into the blow or pulling up and just trying to scare the victim (either one would be felony assault). And of course nearly all of the confrontation has been edited out. We just see a phrase here and there.

There are so many ways this could have actually happened that I feel like I need a whole lot more info before I could draw any judgments about what I've seen.

[Heather]

Well honestly if somebody is harassing me verbally I'm not going escalate the situation. Had she just walked away instead of continuing the argument she would have not been attacked. I noticed the same thing with the Marta incident a month or two ago. Whatever somebody might say it's not worth getting into a fight over.

[dalebert]

As for the video, very hard to tell what happened. I agree that the victim appears compromised (high, drunk, or limited). It's not clear how the fight started. The only part of the violence we see is the victim on the ground being kicked in the face. Not clear if the kicker is putting all his weight into the blow or pulling up and just trying to scare the victim (either one would be felony assault). And of course nearly all of the confrontation has been edited out. We just see a phrase here and there.

It's bizarre. I can't imagine how it would be like that unless it was intentional. It's 21 seconds of video! Obviously a lot more happened. It feels like they edited it down to just what would make the trans woman look bad.

[Jess42]

There are quite a few things that bother me about that video and the story. And honestly make me a little skeptical. When she goes down you can clearly see the guy in the white shirt go to not kick but stomp her in the head. There is a black and white pole that is inconveniently placed that hides the violence of the action of the guy stomping her in the head. I watched it over and over again and stopping it at different places during the assault. At the very end the assaulters shoe is visible on the other side of the pole and doesn't really seemed consistant with the woman's head or where it should be.

Some other things other than the video. The police have no record of assualt during that time, no records of a hospital treating someone with head trauma. If someone stomps you in the head, bones are gonna break, cheekbones, nose, jaw and the cranium itself. Stomping will cause much more damage than just kicking because her head would have been between the pavement and the energy from the act of stomping would have to be fully absorbed by her head. From the way it looked to me and the sheer force the assualter put into the stomp there would have been severe head trama.

Also, last but not least. If you go to the page on the link that Evelyn provided and look at the stillshot. from the video, you can see her hand on his ankle. Sort of like she was guiding it more away from her face and head. And that black and white striped pole that hides the actual act.

I am sorry but if someone was assaulted and stomped in the head with that kind of violence an amblulance or maybe even a coroner would have to be called. And the police would definately become involved and there would be police records of the assault.

I am not saying it is not true but something just doesn't seem to add up to equal the percieved severity of the assault. I could be wrong but I hope I'm not and it was just staged by aspiring young filmakers. And it wouldn't be the first time aspiring film makers put things on youtube.

This is just my opinion and what I see but in this case 2+2 is not equalling out to 4 for me.

[Megan Joanne]

That video with that headstomping totally made my heart jump. Way too brutal. Scared me just seeing it. Still minutes later I'm unnerved.

But, I think I'm going to have to somewhat agree with Evelyn. No matter what they were saying, she took it too far and the wrong way with how and how much she retorted back to them. Her behavior was typical male. She got overly aggressive and even threatened to kick their asses. She got the beat down instead. Should've just walked away.

Here's something of a similar example but involving me. Back when I used to work at Toys R Us, I was coming down the stairs back in receiving from the stockrooms up there, two guys were down there in the back, one being one of my long time coworkers, the other a newbie. I see and hear them laughing, mostly the new guy. Then, once I get down there and past them, about to bring what I had out onto the salesfloor, new guy trying to act cool in front of the guy, calls out to me, "Hey ->-bleeped-<-got!" Okay, that was uncalled for. I had just started living full time as a woman, but can't recall if I had been estrogenized yet then (maybe not), still uncomfortable with trying to adapt. Still a lot of testosterone in my system apparently by what I do next. So I turn around and curse at him, think I said ,"->-bleeped-<- you!", He merely laughed again. Said, "What you going to do ->-bleeped-<-got?" I threatened him, told him to step outside with me and we'll see. I was acting tough, but inside, shaking something terrible. He laughed again, made a kiss at me.

Afterwards one of my ->-bleeped-<- managers approached me, told me what that guy said I said to him, I told him the truth of what happened. I got in trouble because I should've went to them if someone were giving me a hard time. Yeah, right, like they'd actually do anything, didn't before with other problems I had (sexual harassment/assault by a fellow coworker, stolen coat by another). I went outside, balled my brains out. Another coworker, really nice young guy, saw me crying, I told him what happened, he felt bad for me, actually gave me a hug, told me it'll be okay. After I calmed down I went back inside and back to working.

That new guy only worked there for a few days, didn't last long, thankfully because he was trouble, maybe he quit, but I'm thinking most likely got fired for doing something he wasn't supposed to, but highly doubt it was because of me, otherwise he'd been gone that very day.

There are better ways of handling things, I chose the wrong one. What if he took me up on that challenge, I may've been strong for my size, but I'd never really gotten into any real fights before, I'd probably have had my head stomped against a curb. Or what if he decided to get me another time, maybe bring his friends along for the fun, then what.

So yeah, as horrible as what happened to her, she could've prevented that from happening. Sure, maybe they may've followed her and continued to harass her for a bit, but at least try to get to someplace relatively safe. Sometimes fleeing don't work, but aggressiveness like that, yeah, you're asking for it. Shut the ->-bleeped-<- up, walk away.

[Evelyn K]

It might not be wise to agree with me Megan. You might incur the wrath of young pissy little snipers who still have a lot to learn about this warfare called life.

[Eris]

You might incur the wrath of young pissy little snipers who still have a lot to learn about this warfare called life.

And insulting people is a good way to demonstrate your own maturity? 

[Evelyn K]

And insulting people is a good way to demonstrate your own maturity? 

Sometimes derision is needed to underscore the error of their ways.

[Eris]

It might not be wise to agree with me Megan. You might incur the wrath of young pissy little snipers who still have a lot to learn about this warfare called life.

Sometimes derision is needed to underscore the error of their ways.

So let me see if I've managed to grasp your gist in my own inexperienced and erroneous manner.

Not only are those who assume a contrary position to you both Pissy (arrogantly argumentative) and Snipers (those who attack a person or a person's work with petulant or snide criticism) but the only method through which you can convey that they are definitely wrong in attempting to hold an civil and reasoned discussion by explaining their point of view and attempting to understand your own ("error of their ways") is through verbal abuse and the commission of the ad hominem fallacy?

*If not everyone is aware, the abusive use of the ad hominem fallacy usually involves attacking the traits of an opponent as a means to invalidate their arguments.
As an example: describing them as arrogant, petulant, little or inexperienced rather than trying to logically argue that their point of view is wrong.

Evelyn, I credit anyone reading this thread with the capability and experience to determine whether someone has behaved with arrogance or made any "pissy sniping" comments about others.

[Susan]

Unlocked this topic. Keep the discussion on  the issue or else. If you have a complaint about a negative rep, contact FA or me. In this case the smite was retaliatory and that is never ok.