Crossgender Socialisation causes conflict?

[Bunter]

I've been trying to find people with the same problem in the ftm section but it seems to be rather rare, so I'm trying here, too.

This is a question for those who have socially transitioned as a child/teen in some way, and subsequently had problems to adapt socially.

For example that would be mtf who have only played and hung out with girls, were seen as one of the girls, maybe even passed, picked up a lot of female socialisation, and had no real male socialisation (because little or no contact to boys or men), meaning they really don't know how to behave in social situations as a boy or man.

I want to talk about how to handle such a thorough cross-gender socialisation when one has to function as the assigned gender at jobs and social functions, where one is not out as trans.

I'm not mainly talking about dress, interests or femininity/masculinity, but about the different social behaviours and rules in all-male and all-female groups.

I'm interested to hear from people who are in that situation, either now or in the past when they hadn't transitioned yet.
Also (physically) non- and de-transitioners who are experiencing adaption problems.

[suzifrommd]

Not sure if this is exactly what you're talking about, Bunter, but I always had trouble before my transition.

I was only comfortable being friends with women. In college that was OK, but the older I got, the harder it became. I was married and so were most women my age, and interest in friendship was seen as predatory.

It was a major motivator in my transition.

[Bunter]

Thank you Suzi, for replying-

that's exactly what I'm talking about!

In my case (ftm) it's gotten worse the older I got, too, and the wives of my male best buds perceive me as a threat because I bond with their husbands over "male" interests. It's also as if they can't stand that I don't follow female protocols.

It feels as if teens and students have more freedom genderwise, not just regarding gender expression, but also reg. social gender behavior. But when you're past 30 there is rising pressure to conform.

[kelly_aus]

I'm kinda on the fence here..

Growing up I had both male and female friends.. Never really understood the guys, but learnt enough to kinda fake it.. It's not until now that I learn that many of the girls I went to HS had always considered me one of them. I did always have more female friends than male though.

[sad panda]

For what I said in the other thread, I did experience no real socialization... umh, this is a special case I guess, b/c I didn't get to go to middle or high school. I still got SOME male socialization from my family, which was not insignificant, though my dad was universally harsh--on my appearance, my weight, my grades, my sociability, cleanliness. He was just picky in general. So the socialization I got from my family was general expectations.. get a job! cut your hair! gain weight! wtf why do you use so many hair products! and they assumed I was good at/knowledgeable about things and also gave me less help than my sister. I mostly blew it off but I think it still gave me a little learned shame that cis women don't really suffer from. For example, I don't want to participate in a lot of activities because I think I'm not good enough. I always think I'm not good enough, and I'm very self-conscious about people seeing how I do something, or what I'm doing. I think female socialization gives more a sense of it not mattering what you do, in good and bad ways. You will always be at least somewhat valued for being female, but I lived more with the, don't have emotions, you're worthless if you don't accomplish something, expectations. Didn't accomplish anything anyway but... lol.. :/

Oh, but yeah, I've also never experienced life as an adult male, so can't say about that. I was way too avoidant when I was still living as a boy and hitting my late teens.

As a boy I had a little bit of female socialization elements you could say, because I did everything with my best friend who was gay and very feminine, there was no real issue being girly. We did lots of trendy girly things together and we would hang out with the girls. But I had both male and female friends as a child. The male friends were a little problematic, they always pushed me out of my comfort zone, but I mostly went with it, I mean I was a kid. I would try to play sports with them or adventure in the wild, stuff like that, but they were almost always uncomfortably different than me. The worst part was always getting called a ->-bleeped-<-got all the time. And I could never handle men picking on each other for fun, I always took it way too seriously  or times when they would actually just do legitimately mean things to people. And now as an adult I find that men are often concerned about these goofy things, in a narcissistic way, and they can be caustic, like they always have to be right, and sexuality leaks into everything they do which I really can't understand. So I don't really talk to men anymore unless I'm flirting cuz I like their dominance romantically.

I do struggle a lot to socialize with men now and a little bit socializing with women... it's much more natural with women, I just have social anxiety. With men, I don't know. I want to say I could socialize with them but usually I can't relax around them. That was always a problem I had with guys since preteen years.

I don't really think it's my socialization though. I just feel like I'm naturally similar to women, for whatever reason. Kinda similar psychology? I've seen guys of all kinds of socializations that just become typical guys, maybe a little extra polished or a little unpolished, but still, mostly typical guys.

[Bunter]

Before this derails again to a general discussion about socialisation and childhoods (like the thread in the ftm section), let me clarify some more:

I set up this thread to discuss the social problems that can come with a visibly different socialisation or gender behavior (no matter the cause).

I'm interested in actual problems, mostly in job situations and other "public" situations where certain gendered behaviors are expected (meeting strangers, being at a party, or semi-official group event etc), and I'm looking for examples how to deal with them, or at least analyze and understand them better.

I'm also not talking about general social anxiety, but about being very able to perform one type of social group behavior but not the other (assigned one). But your job etc requires you to fake the behavior you haven't learned or have learned only parts of.

I see this more as a cultural learning problem than as a trans problem, like migrating to another country and not knowing the social rules very well. And even when you know some, you can't perform them with ease and naturalness. 

[suzifrommd]

I see this more as a cultural learning problem than as a trans problem, like migrating to another country and not knowing the social rules very well. And even when you know some, you can't perform them with ease and naturalness.

I used to think this was true.

Now I believe that we are wired to form friendships with our own gender (to me, that's pretty much what gender identity is). Friendships across gender boundaries are problematic in just about any culture.

It's the reason why I think FtMs have it worse than we do. Friendships between women are nurturing and soul-supporting. Friendships between men are merely collegial.

[sad panda]

Ok then to fix my reply (sorry) I definitely had that problem with men. Not with women but definitely with men. Mostly bc I just couldn't see myself being like that. I could never pretend to be an average guy, the things they talk about are so foreign to me. The way they treat women is so incomprehensible to me. I'm afraid that once I try living as a boy again it's going to be the same thing.

But OTOH I also have problems integrating with women simply because I won't let myself. It's very natural, like we speak the same language and think about the same things, but I keep people at arm's length because I have this profound sense that I don't deserve to have friends and that they'll grow to hate me. It makes me afraid to talk about myself at all and it makes me feel like I'm fake and other women are real. Most of my friends (all are female) I only talk to every few weeks or so because I'm afraid to be close.

[Misha]

For example that would be mtf who have only played and hung out with girls, were seen as one of the girls, maybe even passed, picked up a lot of female socialisation, and had no real male socialisation (because little or no contact to boys or men), meaning they really don't know how to behave in social situations as a boy or man.

My only past social life was mostly with other girls as well. In the elementary school it resulted in bullying from the male collective but later on it just turned to questions like: "You spend so much time with girls and you never slept with one?" Of course I didn't. That wasn't the reason I spent time with them.

Then at work it didn't lead to any problems or questions as I always worked in a highly professional environment (business software development). I was labeled as odd or weird of course but that rather came from my asperger.

I'm not really aware of any other problems as in my area nobody really cares whether you "comply" with something like "gender standard behavior". You'll never hear anything like this here: "You should behave more masculine/feminine!" This is also most likely related to the fact I never had any problems in my initial girl-mode period of 3 months before HRT. Nobody cared.

[Bunter]

My only past social life was mostly with other girls as well. In the elementary school it resulted in bullying from the male collective but later on it just turned to questions like: "You spend so much time with girls and you never slept with one?" Of course I didn't. That wasn't the reason I spent time with them.

Then at work it didn't lead to any problems or questions as I always worked in a highly professional environment (business software development). I was labeled as odd or weird of course but that rather came from my asperger.

I'm not really aware of any other problems as in my area nobody really cares whether you "comply" with something like "gender standard behavior". You'll never hear anything like this here: "You should behave more masculine/feminine!" This is also most likely related to the fact I never had any problems in my initial girl-mode period of 3 months before HRT. Nobody cared.

I've heard that a lot about software jobs- several trans women I know work there
I like to hang out with nerds for that reason, though recently I run into job related nerd groups that had a lot of Russian guys and so on, and they were super-homophobic and sexist :/

[Bunter]

I used to think this was true.

Now I believe that we are wired to form friendships with our own gender (to me, that's pretty much what gender identity is). Friendships across gender boundaries are problematic in just about any culture.

It's the reason why I think FtMs have it worse than we do. Friendships between women are nurturing and soul-supporting. Friendships between men are merely collegial.

Lols, I'm gay so that's a bit different. Most gay men have friendships with women. I have close women friends too, though they always "happen" to me. I prefer male friends.
Gay men also make very nurturing friends.
I think there might be a biological factor in clustering with your own sex.
But I'm not really interested in the cause though but rather in how to manage the problems when you can't avoid the situation.

From what everyone writes I gather that you basically solve these problems by transitioning? Did anyone actually manage such problems at work over a longer period of time?