Is your thinking, writing, from a feminine brain? (Trigger warning)

[YinYanga]

Neutral leaning to the femme side I think ( from what I got as feedback) in my speech, writing. My thinking is the same way, I hear a more feminine voice most of the time

I did that 300 word test and ended up 150/150, which is pretty rare.....also very long ago so I would probably do different now ^^

[Donna Elvira]

I'm always curious about tests, for fun if nothing else, so I fed different pieces of my writing to the Gender Guesser, some work related and some more personal. It's probably worth mentioning that when I have time, I really enjoy writing and may even get around to writing a book some day. However, I'm also an engineer by training (life sciences though, not one of those horrible "binary" disciplines .. :-) )  but still trained to think more or less in a logical manner...

Anyway, as all of my input material could be considered formal ie. fiction, non-fiction, essays, reports, I only looked at the "Formal" results. End of the day, my professional writing was classed as "Weak Male" and my personal writing as "Weak Female" and I just loved the little remark  "Weak emphasis could indicate European".

It reminded me of the book from the nineteen eighties "Real Men Don't Eat Quiche" except that in this case it would seem that in our written communication, we Europeans are neither real Men not real Woman,  at best "weak" versions of the real thing...

Maybe it's my hormones or I'm being  too sensitive (my bf hasn't called me for a week  ) but I find that just sooooo disrespectful...

Ah, the meanders of the feminine brain!
Hugs
Donna

[YinYanga]

Maybe it's my hormones or I'm being  too sensitive (my bf hasn't called me for a week  ) but I find that just sooooo disrespectful...

Ah, the meanders of the feminine brain!
Hugs
Donna

Maybe both? I dont have a bf/gf but I have brothers who tends to be rather lax about keeping in touch, sometimes frustrates me . I am a bit too sensitive/impatient in that area I think. Not sure if HRT is helping or hurting that cause

[Jess42]

Maybe it's my hormones or I'm being  too sensitive (my bf hasn't called me for a week  ) but I find that just sooooo disrespectful...

Ah, the meanders of the feminine brain!
Hugs
Donna

Guys are just like that. They say they will call you tomorrow and don't and then three or four days later call you. Phone conversations just aren't one of their strong points especially when it comes to promptness. But my God how they complain about how long it takes us to get ready, grumbling, huffing all the hurry ups but after we are ready they never seem to complain too much about how we look.

[Megan Joanne]

I don't know, when it comes to my writing never contemplated it much. I can say this, I used to always simply just list things, but once on hormones I started expressing myself in more detail, actual sentences, paragraphs, mini-novels  . As for my thinking, its not something I worry about much. I'm me and I keep on evolving, the process towards a more feminine mindset has been a gradual thing that I never took all that much notice to, until recently. This year though reflecting back on myself, how I behaved, my interests, I have changed, a lot, it shows in everything I do, perhaps in my writing as well. I can't just list things anymore, I have to tell the whole story.

[Jera]

I really don't think it's possible to tell what gender somebody is just by looking at some text they wrote, and deciding what "style" it is. Like, if somebody gave you a piece of paper, and told you nothing about the author, you'd have as much luck guessing as flipping a coin. Maybe there's some clues in the topics they want to write about more, but even then I really, really doubt it.

I really feel like a lot of it is just cultural bias. We see what we expect to see, because a woman "should" write a certain way, based on our stereotypes. For example, there's a number of very successful female authors who have taken up either a male, or androgynous pen name, and nobody was able to tell the difference. The most famous of these would be I think George Eliot (Mary Ann Evans). Louisa May Alcott wrote under the name "A M Barnard" for a time. The Bronte Sisters wrote as a group of brothers with the name Bell. For more modern examples, J K Rowling is a pretty well-known. Also coming to mind are Ann Rule (Andy Stack) and Nora Roberts (J D Robb).

This works the other way around, too. Many men have written under a female name, again with no-one the wiser. One of the most notable that comes to my mind is Peter O'Donnell, who wrote as "Madeleine Brent". Several people, some of whom are men, wrote as Carolyn Keene (of the Nancy Drew series). In the world of romance novels, they are everywhere, like Tom Huff, who writes as Jennifer Wilde.

It's all about subject matter we expect from men and women, and our stereotypical expectations about what, and how, a male or female author writes. Rarely does anyone know until the author reveals themselves, because nobody is able to tell.

So I would say you can tell some things about the author, like organization or intelligence, from their writing. But not gender.

[YinYanga]

Agreed, Jera

[Evelyn K]

There's actually website where you can analyze pieces of your writing (with more than 300 words)  and see if it comes in a "female" or "male" style http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php#Analyze

That's interosting. I find I can manipulate the results to "female" by writing and keying in on more phrases relating to intimate feelings.

But I know I'm definitely a male writer. I'm too tongue-in-cheek and droll to come off as a woman.

Jill F has an awesome sig line

"Same monkeys, different barrel." - Jennifer Finney Boylan

[Auroramarianna]

I really don't think it's possible to tell what gender somebody is just by looking at some text they wrote, and deciding what "style" it is. Like, if somebody gave you a piece of paper, and told you nothing about the author, you'd have as much luck guessing as flipping a coin. Maybe there's some clues in the topics they want to write about more, but even then I really, really doubt it.

I really feel like a lot of it is just cultural bias. We see what we expect to see, because a woman "should" write a certain way, based on our stereotypes. For example, there's a number of very successful female authors who have taken up either a male, or androgynous pen name, and nobody was able to tell the difference. The most famous of these would be I think George Eliot (Mary Ann Evans). Louisa May Alcott wrote under the name "A M Barnard" for a time. The Bronte Sisters wrote as a group of brothers with the name Bell. For more modern examples, J K Rowling is a pretty well-known. Also coming to mind are Ann Rule (Andy Stack) and Nora Roberts (J D Robb).

This works the other way around, too. Many men have written under a female name, again with no-one the wiser. One of the most notable that comes to my mind is Peter O'Donnell, who wrote as "Madeleine Brent". Several people, some of whom are men, wrote as Carolyn Keene (of the Nancy Drew series). In the world of romance novels, they are everywhere, like Tom Huff, who writes as Jennifer Wilde.

It's all about subject matter we expect from men and women, and our stereotypical expectations about what, and how, a male or female author writes. Rarely does anyone know until the author reveals themselves, because nobody is able to tell.

So I would say you can tell some things about the author, like organization or intelligence, from their writing. But not gender.

Yes, I completely agree. I don't believe you can guess by their writing, there may be cues, but it's generally really not very obvious.

And also, there is a LOT of bias. If you introduce yourself as a female in the forum, they will start "reading you" differently - the fact that you disclosed as female already impacts what they are going to think about you and how they are going to perceive you. Someone may find your writing to seem "more masculine", but they'll never doubt you're female because you introduced yourself as such.

And Evelyn, gender guesser has an algorithm and certain keywords will you give either "masculine points" or "feminine points" and I think that's how they come with percentages, so it's really related to word usage. Words like "if", "with", "her", "myself" are as viewed as feminine words, while "the" and "an/a" are viwed as masculine.

I really think it's silly, because it also assumes masculinity and femminity are quantifiable, and I don't see how "her" gives feminine points but "him" doesn't, it just doesn't make sense at all to me.

[JLT1]

Hi,

I love this topic and I agree with most of what is written.  I especially agree with Jess that it is about communication.  I also agree that sometimes it's hard to tell.  However..... (I always have to disagree a little as I am a scientist.)

I've spent the last 30+ years writing technical documents.  My technical writing bleeds over into daily communication, especially if I'm addressing where I start thinking hard.  What I am writing about can dictate y writing style.

It's frustrating.  For me to write like me, to write from y heart, I have to let go and be me, just Jen...just a woman.  Sometimes, that's hard. 

 
Hugs,
Just Jen

[Jera]

I like how you're saying that what you're writing about dictates your writing style, though I honestly believe that is more about perceptions than actual style. There's a lot more to how we think, and how we write, than just "male or female." I encounter a lot of people who seem think that because women think more emotionally, "feminine" writing is emotional writing, but I just don't feel like that's true. There's a lot more biases at work.

I'm a published writer, and I go by an androgynous pseudonym in my work. I don't believe I write "masculine" or "feminine", since I honestly don't believe there even is such a thing at all. The letters I get from my readers say different things, though, sometimes even different from each other.

If I'm writing a dark piece, they believe I'm male. If I write a happy piece, I tend to be perceived as female. If I write science fiction or mysteries, they think I'm male, and if I write romance, they think I'm female. And strangely (to me), even though "feminine" writing is emotional, when I feel very strongly about the topic I'm writing about, I see that male bias from my readers. When I'm more curious or thoughtful about it, female.

I believe that through all this, I have one voice, one writing "style," trying to communicate what I think or feel as effectively as I can at the time. But the responses I get are as diverse as the things I write about.

[Jess42]

I may be wrong but writing in a professional capacity seems way different because there are all kinds of words to describe things to give the reader, your bread and butter, visual images in their mind. So in a professional capacity male and female would be indistiguishable because the whole ideal is to put the reader in your world and make it seem real. So writing a novel or some scientific paper would definately be hard to distinguish between male and female. And yeha Jera, I agree it would be stereotypical of males to write dark scary thrillers and females to write those racy love novels. But that really could be farther from the turth. There are women that write some pretty dark stuff and some men, usually under a psuedonym, write the racy love stories.

When I write things for my personal use like notes, reminders, and so on I tend to insert a lot of information really more so than needed. If I write something for somone else in a non formal or non professional capacity I still tend to add more than necissary.

I know this is kind of offtopic but I remember quite a few years ago when the 1-900 sex hotlines were really popular. One of the most popular "girls" that people would request from one was a 250 pound 6 ft something tall marine and pure masculine male. It actually made the news if anyone can remember back that far. He was doing it to make extra money and trained his voice to sound female and knew all the right stuff to say. I think he said he learned all the things to say from his wife. I just wonder how many guys had the "OH CRAP" moments when they found out who was turning them on over the phone. Just goes to show though. But sort of on topic, in a professional writing capacity I would think that your target readers is who you would be writing for whether males that write love stories or females that write dark thrillers.

[Carrie Liz]

Yeah, I actually tortured myself with this masculine/feminine communication thing for quite a while. I always feel like I use too many quantifiers, and I'm too demanding when I'm trying to tell people things.

But you know? Recently, I've kind of had to relax on the self-criticism. Because I realized, I was in a constant mindset of nitpicking all of the "flaws" in myself and using them as reasons to say to myself that I was an inadequate woman because I wasn't "female enough." And as part of this, I was constantly mentally criticizing other trans women for being unfeminine too. There were a lot of times where my roommate would be talking to me about trains and the military, and she often got very critical and confrontational rather than empathetic, and I started thinking "God, you still act like such a guy."

But I guess I realized, it's unfair criticism. It's "I'm a REAL woman" and "->-bleeped-<-r than thou" type thinking. And I realized that if I was ever going to be able to forgive myself for the parts of me that were unfeminine, I had to forgive other trans women for the parts of them that are likewise unfeminine, rather than constantly mentally organizing other trans women into heirarchies based on how feminine they were.

So yeah... the manner in which a lot of us speak is a bit non-traditionally-feminine. Admittedly. I see it all the time at my local trans support group, and I frankly have a lot of problems with it myself. But as much as I wish it were different, I can't change the fact that I was brought up as a boy. So I wasn't taught to defer, I wasn't taught to view myself as a helper rather than a leader, I wasn't brought up in the social environment where you couldn't be too sure of yourself otherwise the other girls would hate you for "thinking that you're all that," and I haven't been subjected to the same lifetime of microaggressions and misogyny that cis-girls have.

And I expect that over time, as I continue to live my life as a woman, my manner of expression will naturally become more feminine. But until then, I feel like I just have to accept that even if I am unfeminine, there's nothing I can do about it, and I have to stop criticizing myself for it if I want to be happy. Any time that you're thinking that you're better than someone else because you're more authentically female, or more female because you're passable, or more of a woman because you've had SRS, or because you transitioned younger, or any of these other things, it's probably not a good thing.


(And by the way, on these types of tests, I always end up getting androgynous scores. When typing my blog posts into it, I tend to get "weak male" when it's posts trying to talk about things or voice my opinion on things, and either "female" or "weak female" when it's just posts talking about myself. So maybe that's why I have such issue with these, is because I catch myself simultaneously setting myself higher up on some imaginary heirarchy because I didn't score male, and yet simultaneously viewing myself as lesser because I don't score definitively female.)

[Jera]

Many good insights

I've known many cis-women who treat each other the exact same way. Any woman who rejects her traditional gender-role in society will have that accusation thrown at her in some way just for being herself, whether she rejects the stereotype as a whole, or in part. I don't think that makes her any less a woman, any less feminine, than anyone else. Just less traditionally so.

I may be wrong but writing in a professional capacity seems way different because there are all kinds of words to describe things to give the reader, your bread and butter, visual images in their mind. So in a professional capacity male and female would be indistiguishable because the whole ideal is to put the reader in your world and make it seem real.

Is it really so different? Both are working on the idea that the way men and women communicate their thoughts are fundamentally different. We have all kinds of words to use in everyday conversation as well, that help us share what's in our thoughts. If there truly was such a difference, I feel like it really should be more apparent in a longer work, not less. You have so much more access to the writer's mind in something novel-length as opposed to a two sentence forum posting or email. I also know people who still think that women are inferior at writing technical documents.

The only difference, in my opinion, is how we as a society believe people are supposed to think and act, not how they actually do. Plenty of cis people either embrace or reject these stereotypes, too. I think the difference is that as trans*, we are hyperaware of them.

[Rachel]

I did the hackerfactory.com test on some of the posts I did at Susan's. I was rated as a weak female possible European.
Genre: Informal
  Female = 539
  Male   = 422
  Difference = -117; 43.91%
  Verdict: Weak FEMALE

Weak emphasis could indicate European

Genre: Formal
  Female = 494
  Male   = 424
  Difference = -70; 46.18%
  Verdict: Weak FEMALE

Weak emphasis could indicate European.

I am an engineer and communicate with Engineers and Architects daily as well as Doctors, Nurses Scientists and support persons. When I communicate I change my style depending on the person or content.  To a person I know I open the e-mail with a greeting and asking how they have been or their child or children or new house. I use emoticons depending on the communication or person. I am polite and say please and thank you.  I guess the style is greeting, content and salutation. I never though my writing to be gendered and I am from Philadelphia so European I am not (very flattering though).

I really dislike how some people are rude with e-mail. I sometimes wonder why people would want to help them other than being paid.

[Tori]

I get more feminine every day with my communication.

But hey, I am one of those ladies who shocked everyone when I came out. I have a lot of masculine behavior patterns that I need to deal with. I do not get too hung up on it. I am sort of a bullish lesbian.

But then I start thinking about shoes. Shooooooooes!!!

[Evelyn K]

Yeah, I actually tortured myself with this masculine/feminine communication thing for quite a while. I always feel like I use too many quantifiers, and I'm too demanding when I'm trying to tell people things.

But you know? Recently, I've kind of had to relax on the self-criticism. Because I realized, I was in a constant mindset of nitpicking all of the "flaws" in myself and using them as reasons to say to myself that I was an inadequate woman because I wasn't "female enough." And as part of this, I was constantly mentally criticizing other trans women for being unfeminine too. There were a lot of times where my roommate would be talking to me about trains and the military, and she often got very critical and confrontational rather than empathetic, and I started thinking "God, you still act like such a guy."

But I guess I realized, it's unfair criticism. It's "I'm a REAL woman" and "->-bleeped-<-r than thou" type thinking. And I realized that if I was ever going to be able to forgive myself for the parts of me that were unfeminine, I had to forgive other trans women for the parts of them that are likewise unfeminine, rather than constantly mentally organizing other trans women into heirarchies based on how feminine they were.

So yeah... the manner in which a lot of us speak is a bit non-traditionally-feminine. Admittedly. I see it all the time at my local trans support group, and I frankly have a lot of problems with it myself. But as much as I wish it were different, I can't change the fact that I was brought up as a boy. So I wasn't taught to defer, I wasn't taught to view myself as a helper rather than a leader, I wasn't brought up in the social environment where you couldn't be too sure of yourself otherwise the other girls would hate you for "thinking that you're all that," and I haven't been subjected to the same lifetime of microaggressions and misogyny that cis-girls have.

And I expect that over time, as I continue to live my life as a woman, my manner of expression will naturally become more feminine. But until then, I feel like I just have to accept that even if I am unfeminine, there's nothing I can do about it, and I have to stop criticizing myself for it if I want to be happy. Any time that you're thinking that you're better than someone else because you're more authentically female, or more female because you're passable, or more of a woman because you've had SRS, or because you transitioned younger, or any of these other things, it's probably not a good thing.


(And by the way, on these types of tests, I always end up getting androgynous scores. When typing my blog posts into it, I tend to get "weak male" when it's posts trying to talk about things or voice my opinion on things, and either "female" or "weak female" when it's just posts talking about myself. So maybe that's why I have such issue with these, is because I catch myself simultaneously setting myself higher up on some imaginary heirarchy because I didn't score male, and yet simultaneously viewing myself as lesser because I don't score definitively female.)

I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter Ms. Liz. This was an eye opener on so many levels.

[helen2010]

Love the OP.  However gendering writing style is like gendering colour, clothing, leadership competencies etc - inherently fallacious.

For example,  those working in a structured environment where they have been trained or see benefit in an analytic mindset will usually write in a structured manner in all work related or formal situations.  However they may or may not write or think differently in prose or when communicating with friends in social situations.

In my professional life I see many of the most successful female leaders demonstrate much stronger 'masculine' attributes, including communication style, than many of their male colleagues.  Depending upon your perspective, narrative etc you could reach many quite different interpretations and each would have merit.  But trying to attribute thinking and writing as arising from a feminine or masculine brain is, I think, a bridge too far.

Aisla

[AnneB]

I realize it is pretty much subjective, and dependent on the subject matter being written about, I guess I was speaking in more generalities.. ..  For an example.. On FB, I'm the creator and mod for a Sisters group I started at the end of last year.. There were so many girls on there that were asking for "prayers for xxxxx, as she's having a hard time" or "guys, can you keep xxxxx in your thoughts as she having surgery next week and it's not good" etc... So I made a group, where the collective power of their thoughts and prayers could be for those needing them..  Sort of an Intention group.. well, I was noticing, my writing style was really no different from the cisfemales (nearly 150 of them) that were posting and replying.  It was this which fostered the notion that our .. communicative style may be identified as being a particular gender..  I realize, the subject can very much influence the style, but if it is more emotionally based, would you be seen as male or female.  How you would actually emote, would that reinforce or contradict what your brain, or heart, is telling you, and others.

idk, maybe I'm just thinking it too girly.. or trying to see something that may not be there.  As I said, there are prom queens, and roller derby queens (not intending stereotypes) and each have their own communicative style, I just wondered if it would be apparent.

[FrancisAnn]

I seem to think, move, write etc........ in a much more feminine normal fashion when I'm on my normal level of estrogen. I've had to stop hrt some during surgery, etc.....& I sure felt just "wrong"?