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New Yorker Piece about RadFem vs T: What is a Woman

Started by Sabine, July 29, 2014, 07:50:29 AM

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Sabine

What Is a Woman?

The dispute between radical feminism and ->-bleeped-<-.

By Michelle Goldberg

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2?src=mp

A familiar story, but on the radar at The New Yorker.


EDIT: BTW, when I read this on line I noticed it was on their Most Popular list.
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suzifrommd

Really interesting, especially in a mainstream publication. I think the question of what makes someone a woman (or man) is definitely worthy of dialog.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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Sabine

#2
It seems that The New Yorker piece has provoked some outrage on the RadFem left for trying to offer a balance, and dancing on the right as an example on the right of the left eating their own.  There's not a lot of attention yet, but it's this week's magazine and just getting attention. Like the Newsweek piece, it's fairly short and almost tentative.  Neither covered new ground and to me they were important simply for being in those magazines. For existing. It seemed to me TNY was simply showing it had cred in the current awareness of T people, and recognizing that there was a nasty fight going on. I didn't find it controversial in itself, though I know that people on both sides feel very highly committed to how language is used and to their ideological positions.

I did a google search to see who was covering it so far, which is mostly bloggers, and I looked at a few sites and burrowed down to comments. As expected, they were depressingly angry and vitriolic. In the past, I read these sorts of articles more with curiosity than anything else and almost detached.  Now I find that I feel uncomfortable. My reaction now is not so much to the article, which is fairly benign as an attempt to observe the fight between SOME feminists and SOME T people, but about my own feeling of distance.

My own transition took place is relative isolation form any greater T community, and I had plenty of local options as I live in a major metropolitan area. I was in no support groups and I have no T friends that I know of. I just dance to my own tune.  I think I also don't want to be seen first as T. But these sorts of articles and comments pierce that. I worry that I won't be allowed to be left alone. I also wonder about whether I should choose to be.

My transition is certainly not secret in a community I have lived for decades (ugh) and where I can't walk down the street without meeting several people I know and who want to talk.  I go about my life as I did before.  Yet, I also know I have been very lucky in not having encountered angry reactions, and certainly nothing that made me feel "other" or unsafe. When I have felt invisible, it has been as F not T. When I read articles and comments like the ones in the New Yorker and the blog, and the adamant pure hate, I wonder how cocooned I have been, or is this the internets being the internets.  Unfiltered, out of context, and given to overwrought and irrelevant swamps and backwaters.

To me, any gender marker was secondary to who I am as a person. I don't say that it doesn't matter to me, otherwise I would not have transitioned. I just don't feel it defines me. This may also be why I waited so long to do anything about it. Life had other priorities.  I have a hard time understanding RadFem, not feminism. I get feminism, I feel it. I just don't see it as defining me either, and I am not a misandrist as the RadFems seem to be.  I also have not waded into T politics and advocacy.  Being T didn't define my life. It was something to take care of and move along with. I felt I didn't need to do more and that being as everyday and involved in my community as I was is my contribution. But then I worry about what is holding back the anger on the far left and far right, though I know we are talking about fringes. At least I hope we are. I wonder what legitimizes and unleashes such hate into the mainstream, and how much is misdirected frustration from other perceived wrongs?

Most of the time I feel like an observer who happens to be T, just like I happen to be auburn haired. I'm not sure that's always healthy. I question how engaged I am or am not.  On the one hand, I want to respond to the intense and often irrational hate. On the other I realise it's just that: intense and irrational hate, and people who cannot be reasoned with directly.  I feel the world reacts differently to us than they ever did to gays and lesbians.  Some of that is probably because it's easier to understand the motivations of attraction and love than of feeling out of sorts in your body. I still remember my mother asking, can't the therapist talk you out of the problem? Can't they give you testosterone instead? There was no point of reference for her, and she has many close friends who happen to be gay. This is where I think the RadFems and the part of the T community who fight with them miss the point: They are incapable of grasping or refuse to accept a reference point, they feel too much is at stake and perceive an existential threat. That threat is so overpowering they want to stomp the other out or at least marginalised them. But that is  where they came into ongoing play in the first place.  It's no better than what they feel they received at the hands of others. They learned nothing and they won't. And that's what makes me uncomfortable. They won't go away, and they will continue to bite and kick each other, and someone, sometime will get out of control and someone will get hurt.

My temptation is to say, this is a fringe, let them have at it until they get tired as long as no one gets hurt. The problem is, when it's in The New Yorker, it makes it sound more than it is, as if this is the struggle to define who T are. If there is one thing these boards show, it's that we won't be pigeonholed and defined easily. The genie is out of the bottle, we slowly go mainstream. I think some will be more non-conformist than others and more visible,  but in the end largely unremarked. And that's all I want, to be unremarked as a woman and remarked as a person.

edit: Way too long for a post. Sorry.
   
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Dee Marshall

To me the problem is that I struggle with too much self doubt and second guessing to want to have to deal with Radfems marginalizing me.

Sometimes it seems that having our own identify as transwomen and transmen is better than insisting on being women and men. Would that be heroic and genuine or would it be giving in? Does society need two more genders?
April 22, 2015, the day of my first face to face pass in gender neutral clothes and no makeup. It may be months to the next one, but I'm good with that!

Being transgender is just a phase. It hardly ever starts before conception and always ends promptly at death.

They say the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. I say, climb aboard!
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skin

Response Piece: The New Yorker's Skewed History of Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism Ignores Actual Trans Women

Mari Brighe, Autostraddle
July 29, 2014

Media coverage of transgender issues has increased rapidly in the last few years as trans people have made larger and louder pushes for relatively basic rights and recognition. Unfortunately, as ground is gained in the fight for trans acceptance, the opposition to that progress only grows more louder and more aggressive. This is visible in Michelle Goldberg's latest piece for The New Yorker, which investigates the conflict between trans-exclusionary radical feminists and the transgender population. Sadly, what she presents is a disturbingly one-sided view of the situation that relies on heavily anecdotal evidence, uncited claims and debunked theories, and ignores the extended campaign of harassment and attack that the the trans community has endured at the hands of radical feminists.

Let's start with the numbers. In the piece, Goldberg mentions the names of 14 radical feminist activists (frequently providing physical descriptions), and provides quotes from nine of them — including two from books penned by radfems. In contrast, she mentions and quotes a total four trans women (zero from books), and two of them are quoted to supporting the radical feminist position. The problem isn't necessarily that Goldberg appears to side with the radical feminist viewpoint; that's perfectly within her rights, and perfectly within The New Yorker's right to print it. The real issue is that Ms Goldberg gives the impression that she's covering the conflict between the trans rights movement and radical feminism — after all, the piece is subtitled "The dispute between radical feminism and ->-bleeped-<-" — but gives only passing lip service to the transgender community's side of this situation. In failing to provide a semblance of balance to the voices in the piece, this account becomes hopelessly skewed, and becomes little more than a radical feminist propaganda piece.

More: http://www.autostraddle.com/the-new-yorkers-skewed-history-of-trans-exclusionary-radical-feminism-ignores-actual-trans-women-247642/
"Choosing to be true to one's self — despite challenges that may come with the journey — is an integral part of realizing not just one's own potential, but of realizing the true nature of our collective human spirit. This spirit is what makes us who we are, and by following that spirit as it manifests outwardly, and inwardly, you are benefiting us all." -Andrew WK
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Sabine

Quote from: skin on July 29, 2014, 04:20:11 PM
Response Piece: The New Yorker's Skewed History of Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism Ignores Actual Trans Women

Mari Brighe, Autostraddle
July 29, 2014

....

More: http://www.autostraddle.com/the-new-yorkers-skewed-history-of-trans-exclusionary-radical-feminism-ignores-actual-trans-women-247642/


I saw that and it seems to be the only piece out there taking the NY piece apart from a T point of view. It sort of speaks to my last point that when it's in the New Yorker, it takes on a legitimacy that may not be warranted. She's right. We don't get a fair hearing, and the media really doesn't know who to turn to for other views. They also are just learning how to find the research and what to make of it. At least they are starting. We are fractured and divided as a community for many good reasons. I have been trying to figure out what the profile of a "spokesperson" would even look like. We need a cluster of reasonably toned, bright, and articulate people as a collective face.  Research on our community, medically and socially, is sparse, and so much of it is buried in medical and psychological texts that few can read let alone decipher. I guess making good information, that is accessible and academically reliable, really should be the starting point for the next wave of media.
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skin

One of the transwomen interviewed for the piece wrote a blog yesterday.  She posted the email exchanges she had with the author to prove that the author really twisted what she had and misrepresented the spirit of the interview she gave.
"Choosing to be true to one's self — despite challenges that may come with the journey — is an integral part of realizing not just one's own potential, but of realizing the true nature of our collective human spirit. This spirit is what makes us who we are, and by following that spirit as it manifests outwardly, and inwardly, you are benefiting us all." -Andrew WK
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Sabine

Quote from: Dee Walker on July 29, 2014, 03:33:19 PM

Sometimes it seems that having our own identify as transwomen and transmen is better than insisting on being women and men. Would that be heroic and genuine or would it be giving in? Does society need two more genders?

I don't think that's giving in if you are comfortable using those terms. Many people see that as their identity anyway. I suppose it's highly individualistic. I don't think that's my own comfort area, mainly because I see myself as strictly female now.  I'm not sure what I would do with transwoman. It may better describe one person than another.

But I also think that the more categories we create, the more confused those who are not T or non-binary etc. become. We'll never sort that because we are committed to self identification. The media scramble for the latest "correct" community approved term out of wanting to be respectful, which is fine. Yet I can see they are not sure what that might be. The NY piece reflects that conflict.
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peky

So, the title od the article, "what is a women" was never addressed by the NY article.... pity... all this article is but an expose on the hateful "RadFems," which should be called "RadHeaters," which like their brothers "the radical self righteous" types of any religious denomination have nothing to live for but to hate someone...

I wish the RadFems could show the world their devotion to "women rights" by going to Iraq to fight the ISIS dudes who are mutilating the genitals of our little sisters!

Come on RadFems, show me some balls, if not yours, then the ones taken from the ISIS dudes....

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OreSama

I think radfems just can't tell the difference between gender and gender roles.
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Joelene9

  I remember that a certain US left leaning major TV network did a piece a while back on the RadFems for their Sunday news magazine. Or tried to.  They did interviews, but the subjects will not answer certain questions from the female reporter.  She tried to attend a meeting they had with her female crew, but were told to get out and even though the meeting was "public".  One of the representatives said that the meeting was "For us". 
  The Autostraddle piece is a good rebuttal for the titled TNY piece in this thread.  I see that an observation by a reader of the Mari Brighe piece that the sophomoric Tumblr responses to the "TERFs" were from kids 18 and younger and do not represent the Trans community at large. This same responder said that she did meet the invited Michelle Goldberg at a pro choice rally in college and liked her then.  She is quite dispondent of Ms Goldberg's opinion on trans people now.

  Joelene
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Sabine

I think RadFem is marginalising themselves with all this. I'm sure they have members, but it's more vocal than numbers. Some of the comments in various threads have been pretty scary, such as a call to create a register of all "TERFs" in order to track them and go after them. I don't know if it's good or bad that the younger set are so militant in calls for violence and hold such extreme views. One would hope the next generation would be better. Then again, there is so much indoctrination these days about men that it's not a great leap to RadFem. Also, it encourages the far right to be equally obnoxious with the logic, "if even the left hates them, so can we."
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Sabine

And then there is this reaction in NY Post.

http://nypost.com/2014/08/04/scenes-from-the-feminist-implosion/?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_medium=SocialFlow

More about the RadFem self destruction than the T side, and this is the Post and not exactly introspective journalism.
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SilentRain

Abusive posts proliferated on Twitter and, especially, Tumblr. One read, "/kill/terfs 2K14." Another suggested, "how about 'slowly and horrendously murder terfs in saw-like torture machines and contraptions' 2K14." A young blogger holding a knife posted a selfie with the caption "Fetch me a terf."
What!? These people are no better than the people use violence againsts
Trans people. How does one humanely justify this?
Whew.....
Anyway, I've been saying for a long time MtF and FtM Transexuals don't need to stereotype themselves post op, or transitioning. They don't have to classify as a girly girl or tough guy to be accepted in society. My friend once told me "your physical body will change, but never your mind."

I have more to say but this post seems a bit too dead for my liking.
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Susan522

"My temptation is to say, this is a fringe, let them have at it until they get tired as long as no one gets hurt. The problem is, when it's in The New Yorker, it makes it sound more than it is, as if this is the struggle to define who T are."

The problem with ignoring the extremists of any political bent is that people do get hurt.

Just look at the damage caused by Hamas in Gaza, or ISIS in Iraq. Both were able to ascend to power while ordinary folk just slept or tended to their own personal problems.  This is what happened with Hitler and it will continue to happen. 

Just seems like human nature to keep one's eyes averted and one's mouth shut.
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OreSama

Quote from: Sabine on August 06, 2014, 12:34:08 PM
And then there is this reaction in NY Post.

http://nypost.com/2014/08/04/scenes-from-the-feminist-implosion/?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_medium=SocialFlow

More about the RadFem self destruction than the T side, and this is the Post and not exactly introspective journalism.
"....the fact that he has a choice means that he can never understand what being a woman is really like.""
lol like we have a choice.  I tried to pretend to be a girl for years and all that got me was even more parts I don't want and nearly made me suicidal.  Some 'choice'.
As for later on in the article where they're talking about pregnancy and stuff, it reminds me of the times on tumblr where someone takes a post about women's reproductive health and starts making it about trans men and I'll just sit there thinking "Gee, thanks for reminding me, ->-bleeped-<-."
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