Why TS's say that those with a choice aren't really TS

[Fer]

I am unclear about something and forgive my lack of compassion..

I dont frequent this website everyday but I have read some very disturbing posts about the same people who now claim that transition is a choice.  OK, maybe I am the mental case here or I am not understanding something correctly.  People choose transition to be happy.  Shouldnt their posts be about the happiness they have found instead of the horrid experiences they are facing now?  what I read here doesnt match what I have read in other threads from the same posters.  funny, innit? considering that transition is beautiful and a path people choose to be happy.

[MeganRose]

Life isn't all beauty, puppies and happy thoughts, I imagine you would understand that though.

Just because I decided to do something to be happy doesn't mean that there are now no bad things in the world, no people to hurt me, nothing to get upset about, that's its now all sunshine and rainbows 24/7/365. I'm still a human being, I'm still living a human life and it would be ridiculous to assume that because I chose to do something to make me happy that I'm happy all the time?

I'm happier though. A lot happier. Just because every post I write on this forum isn't about how overjoyed I am to be a beautiful creature living a beautiful existence in a beautiful world doesn't mean I don't have my moments. And I think the same could be said of everyone here, more or less.

Megan

[Seshatneferw]

Dunno what makes me more of a martyr; to say that I hadnt a choice or to say that I did have a choice and that all that I cry over for what happens in my life now is because of that choice I made.

This, I believe, is close to the source of the current fighting. I get the distinct impression that you, and others who claim there was no choice, think that a choice would be free of outside constraints. Those who argue there is a choice (like me) tend to think that the freedom in that choice varies a lot from one person to another.

It's clear that for some the choice really is that between life and death; not much freedom there. For others, though, it may not be quite as restricted, even though the choice is not completely free for most of this group either. Some of these others still transition, and fulfill the diagnostic criteria for transsexuality.

Now, could we move on to something else?

  Nfr

[Kara]

Why TS's say that those with a choice aren't really TS

Because some people build an identity based on being victimized and martyred. Choice = responsibility, and they need to avoid responsibility at all costs lest they not be passive, helpless victims anymore. Plus it destroys the whole, "Don't transition! It's the most terrible thing you'll ever go through and only people like me could do it!" bragging. Some people are self-destructive, and it manifests in both thought and action. Endless suicide "attempts," self-mutilations, drug addictions...

My guess is these people have never worked through their own internalized shame and guilt, so it HAS to be "no choice" so they and others can't "blame" them for the things they feel shameful about.

Personally, I think transition is a *beautiful* thing. It's not some awful death sentence, though these people do their best to paint it as some horrific experience in order to make themselves look like martyred, reluctant heroes.

Here's some thoughts:

1) Transition itself has it's risks and troubles. But it CAN be relatively easy to do IF IF IF you can get through your own guilt and shame about doing it. If I could go back and transition again, knowing what I know now and not needing to get over myself so much... aside from the damage to my marriage, it would pretty much be a non-event.

2) You don't have to "be a woman inside" to justify transitioning. All that stuff it political wackiness thrown about by people trying to justify something they feel insecure about themselves, IMHO. Needs > Reasons.

3) Just do what YOU need to do to "transition." Everyone's needs are unique, as is everyone's transition. For God's sake, don't get caught up in all the endless battles of what makes a "Real TS" and "Real Woman." Don't do something because some insecure person tells you "All real TSs would..." Do you want to be a Real TS? Or a real YOU? Figure YOURSELF out, and let them have their pointless battles while you go off and fix what you gotta fix to be happy. You don't need to please THEM or fit someone's definitions to be happy... you just gotta be YOU.

~Kate~

I really love your views on these things.

To me, it just comes down to priorities.

No offense meant to anyone here but If I had children, I would put all of this on the back burner and soldier on for them. If I honestly believed that this was against my religious beliefs, I would do the same thing. Hell, I am constantly looking for a comfortable medium between killing myself and killing this thing that all the people that I love have become so ->-bleeped-<-ing attached to, that thing being me as male.

If you are the most important thing to you, than God bless. But how dare some of you attempt to berate others just because them be trying to go a different route or have their values somewhere else. As anyone who has been to the bottom knows well enough, you would be surprised what one can go without. Their is resilliance is no shot at you so stop shooting at them.

[Fae]

I wonder for those who do manage to write of their regrets in transition, if a simple castration would have helped clear their head for a time.  My best friend and I have discussed this at length.  She wonders this for herself.  She does not regret transition but she wonders about the influences of testosterone and the fetishes on people's choices to transition.

Certainly if you tend to sit on the fence and suddenly come to a realization that this is the thing to do, you might consider an orchiectomy first.  After all, you probably don't want to have children being so messed up in the first place.  If you can free yourself from the testosterone, perhaps it may help.  I am not a physician and I'm just throwing this out as an idea to help prevent someone from falling into transition  where they might not belong.  Please don't consider this sound advice by any means!

Cindi

While I'm not so sure of the effects of testosterone on fetishes and people's subsequent choice to transition, I do believe that your advice on getting a castration first is sound.  I don't know about the whole "choice" thing in regards to being TS (and I know this was said before, but just to restate since I agree with this), but I do know that everyone makes a choice in regards to how they will transition, not if they will transition or not.  I feel that to say otherwise just defies reality because as an individual, by saying you don't have a choice means you aren't willing to take responsibility for your actions.  You may not have a choice in being TG/TS, but you certainly have a choice in regards to how you will handle being TG/TS.

An Orchiectomy is the path I am seeking Cindi, because I feel that a TG transition is right for me.  At first I wanted a TS transition - SRS, FFS, etc - but now after 5+ months HRT, I don't need FFS because hormones have changed my face enough where I pass.  I don't feel SRS will make me any happier.  These are the choices I've made to deal with my gender dyphoria.

Just adding my two cents.

~Fae

[cindianna_jones]

I don't believe that there has been much research in the effects of an orchiectomy where we are concerned.  That's why I've thrown it out there as a valid possibility.

That, my friends, IS a choice!

Cindi

[Elizabeth]

   
Why TS's say that those with a choice aren't really TS

What difference does it make? I mean, who cares what anyone thinks. The question has a built in presumption TS's don't have a choice, which is by no means a certainty. So it's asking why those who dont feel it's a choice would say anyone that has a choice is not. Well that seems real simple too. We all want to justify and validate our own beliefs. I agree with what Kate said about it.

The bottom line is this, I don't know about anyone's gender identity except my own. And despite what anyone might say, they don't know about mine. It's all self diagnosed. It all boils down to what a person feels inside. There are always choices, perhaps some of the choices are not so pleasant, like being dead, but none the less, it's still a choice. People don't accidentally transition. It takes a great deal of effort. Once must choose to put forth the effort.

I see "I had no choice" as a metaphor more than an actuality. It means that for that person, it was the only viable choice to create some kind of happiness in their life and end the suffering. Those who transition and warn others not to can be taken in two ways. On one hand we can see a some of the element of "I did it, but it's too hard for you" and on the other hand "Transition is painful both emotionally and physically, make sure you are really hurting before you take this path."

In the end though, each person has to accept their gender identity and decide what to do about it. I just don't believe in absolutes because I can see no evidence of it anywhere else. Why would transsexualism be any different? All women are not the same, all men are not the same and all transsexuals are not the same. That will be true of any subculture within the human race, as far as everyone in any group being the same.

We each have our own experience and what we do about it. I am not sure why people who consider themselves to be "true transsexuals" want to tell others they are not transsexuals, but I suspect that a lot of what Kate said is true. I also am very skeptical of any advice that comes in the form of anyone telling anyone who or what they are. I just don't believe anyone can know. Too much of what we experience as human beings is abstract. It's a miracle we can communicate at all, but it's unlikely we can know how anyone feels. We can't even know that the words we use have the same meaning to all of us.

I have a policy about "free advise". Take what is useful to me, and leave the rest. I can't say what anyone else is experiencing, but if they can not see my point of view, it's obvious they are not experiencing the same thing as me or I am not making myself clear. In either event, it won't change the experience either of us have. I come here to see how others cope with this and what they have done. If the object is to influence me to not transition because I am not a "true transsexual", being insulting and condescending will not meet that end.

Opinions are nice, but they are based on a person's own experience, which usually make them useless to anyone else. That is why it is so important to know when someone is espousing an opinion or fact. And when it comes to transsexualism, there seems to be a real shortage of facts. That means everyone has to become their own expert. The problem with this is that this particular expertise only applies to ourselves and not others. We can only offer our experience as one of many for others to consider.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Sophia]

If I had had a choice, I would have decided to forget about transition.  Nobody in their right mind and having a choice would want to subject themselves to this horrid struggle.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.  Its harsh to grasp but its the truth.  Only someone who is a masochist or mental would choose to lose family, friends, jobs, spouses, children, and finances over all this.  I did all that because there wasnt another option.  Death was one but I didnt want to kill myself so I guess I made a decision at the end, I chose to live and be me.

You made the right choice for you in bolded. But you did still make a choice. A very good choice, but one nevertheless.

And not everyone's transition is going to be a horrific trial of doom. Some are really bad and others are actually relatively easy. That's the thing there, every transition is different.

I may be trying to come across as a martyr .  Dunno what makes me more of a martyr; to say that I hadnt a choice or to say that I did have a choice and that all that I cry over for what happens in my life now is because of that choice I made.

Moreover, if I had a choice and chose to transition, why shall I cry over the hardships of transition then?  Its what I have chosen, innit?

Well just because you made a choice doesn't mean that you can't bemoan the difficulties of the world. Its not your fault that society is so vicious to transsexuals. Being angry or upset that the choice is such a difficult one is perfectly valid.

Posted on: August 05, 2007, 04:21:06 PM

Try and have some compassion, as human beings we all deserve that.

Megan

To ask for compassion, peeps have to learn how to give it first.  Have you considered the possibility that I might have been offended and hurt when you and others call transition a choice? 

I think you're getting caught up in the idea that a horrible awful option and a really good option in comparison aren't choices because you'd never pick the horrible awful option and figure that very few people would pick that option either. The fact is you did make a choice. You made a choice to live. In your case that was your options.

Not everyone has a horrific transition, as shown by Megan's experiences and others. Not everyone has to chose between death and losing family, friends, finances and children. Some people have better options, lived in better areas with less bigotry or even received training to deal with psychological and emotional pain and trauma in a way that reduces the impact of GID.

Acting as though the most painful transition path in existence is the only thing anyone would go through when transitioning is showing a lack of perspective. Not everyone is you. Not everyone is me. And some people don't have the exact same options, worldview and life you did.

Posted on: August 05, 2007, 04:36:14 PM

I see "I had no choice" as a metaphor more than an actuality. It means that for that person, it was the only viable choice to create some kind of happiness in their life and end the suffering.

You put it so much better then I did and in two sentences.

I'm jealous.

[katia]

Moreover, if I had a choice and chose to transition, why shall I cry over the hardships of transition then?  Its what I have chosen, innit?

ha ha ha ha ha right on the nail!

I have read some very disturbing posts about the same people who now claim that transition is a choice.  what I read here doesnt match what I have read in other threads from the same posters. 

are you talking about their blogs or the cold-hearted comment they made about mtf puberty being a breeze?  >

i know what you mean.  talk about being mental, eh?  i stopped reading their    confusing threads several months ago.  i'd ignore them if i could but i can't. 

hey fer, if you chose transition, why the hell are you complaining about not passing, being read in your job and losing your spouse.  you chose it didn't cha?  deal with it damn it!  > stop acting like a martyr!

this quote from renee richards is enlightening;

It's not something for somebody in their 40s to do, someone who's had a life as a man, - - - If you're 18 or 20 and never had the kind of (advantages) I had, and you're oriented in that direction, sure, go ahead and make right what nature didn't. But if you're a 45-year-old man and you're an airline pilot and you have an ex-wife and three adolescent kids, you better get on Thorazine or Zoloft or Prozac or get locked up or do whatever it takes to keep you from being allowed to do something like this.
Don't do it! That's my advice. This is the most awful, most expensive, most painful, most disruptive thing you could ever do. Don't do it unless there is no other alternative. You may think your life is tough but unless it's a choice between suicide and a sex-change it will only get worse. And the costs keep coming. You lose control over most aspects of your life, become a second class citizen and all so you can wear women's clothes and feel cuter than you do now.  Don't do it is all I've got to say. That's advice I wish someone had given me. I had the sex change, I "pass" fine, my career is good but you can't imagine the number of times I've wished I could go back and see if there was another way.

[Anaya]

Moreover, if I had a choice and chose to transition, why shall I cry over the hardships of transition then?  Its what I have chosen, innit?

ha ha ha ha ha right on the nail!

so because i chose a path that will make me happier in the long run, i can't complain about the obstacles that others (even entire societies) put in my way? although we see two paths we know that one will lead to a paradise and the other to a hell. But the one leading to the paradise is plastered full of the litter of other people (like broken glass.. which can really hurt if you step on that)! We chose the path but i think we should still complain. If we complain, the path might be cleaned and not only for us but for others too. And if we complain we might get a helping hand who can guide us around the parts that hurt of the path. But the best part of that path are those little lookouts which are scattered all over the way and lets you get a glimpse of that better place. We could have chosen the painless path, but its a long one that leads farther and farther into the dark depressing woods until you get to a cliff, fall and land in hell.

hell, should i give an example from a book/movie (actually movie, gives more imagery)? Lord of the rings! Frodo chose to take the ring to mount doom, so that all evil would perish. Other people stopped him on the way, evil orcs, gollum, Boromir, Faramir. Misguided and also bad intentioned people. It always got more difficult. He complained and Sam helped him. He CHOSE to take the ring to mt. doom for the ultimate good, shouldn't he have complained? You make it seem that as he chose to do that that the path shouldnt hurt him, but it did...
Or you could say that he didn't have a choice, he was the only person who could take the ring that far.

telling myself that i had a choice in everything i did, makes every choice more meaningful and makes me think harder about everything i choose. there were too many people who "knew" there was no other choice than to transition, and then regretted it. i wanted to be sure that i wouldn't be one of those people, and now i am certain at the end of which path hell lies, and know that i have to take the other one. Does the other one take me to my paradise? i hope so, if not, its still a lot better than the other path(s) (you, know, theres still the androgyne path, and the crossdresser path and so on, but their destinations aren't much better than the male path either)

[katia]

if you say that you "chose" transition to be happy, yet you sound unhappy in 95% of your threads, posts, and personal blog.  Hey, sorry but you'd better set your priorities right or stop acting like a martyr.  i don't know who you are trying to fool with this "i chose transition to be happy".  really? well, then i don't want to hear your whines about not being able to handle what you have "chosen".  period.

[SusanK]

I started another controversial topic.

That you did, but all this discussion about choice forgets one point. To have choice you must have opportunities to choose among. If a transistion was not possible, such as 50+ years ago or in some places in the world today, what difference would it make if you want to transistion, the choice doesn't exist. It's because of medical technology (psychological help, drugs, surgeries, etc.) and legal status that a transistion is a possibility. If none of this existed, what choice(s) would you have, because transistion wouldn't be among them?

[Nero]

*sighs*
I was really trying not to get involved in this one because I believe this is a semantics argument - at least the way it's written.
But seeing as this topic just won't die and keeps popping up at the top of my post list...

So, what exactly is the question here? Is this just a semantics argument about whether one person defines 'transition or die' as a choice or not?

Or a question of 'transition or blow your head off' vs 'transition or just live as your birth gender'?

[Owen]

Well this is food for thought after reading all the responses. For me it would have to be choice weather or not I decide to transition fully and not so I can wear womens clothes, I can do that right now after carefully applying makeup and pass. I would transition to make myslef feel whole as a woman. I may have lived my life as a man and not to happly either, but I know I can live out the rest of my life as woman and make many friends along the way. If I decide to transition fully it will be my choice and my choice alone. Given the factors, finacial, pain, hurt, lonleyness, loosing family and friends I have now, I think making a full transition may or may not be a good thing, but I dont know what the future looks for me. I may very well get the support I need from some family. I think my sister would support me I dont know about the rest of my family. As for friends, well if they support me fine if not then I will make new friends. Not a big deal really as I have been lonely most of my life.

Linda Ann

Love being female

[Sophia]

Moreover, if I had a choice and chose to transition, why shall I cry over the hardships of transition then?  Its what I have chosen, innit?

ha ha ha ha ha right on the nail!

Because most of those hardships are independent of the transition itself and are caused by our asinine society. That's something that should be changed and should be seen as bad. Complaining about it isn't as useful as working to defeat these social inequalities, but accepting them as inevitable (and invariably doing nothing to remove them) is just as bad, or even perhaps worse.

A person who transitions to be happy and realizes they hate having breasts shouldn't complain. A person that transitions and hates the way people treat transsexuals has every right to complain, because society is filled with jerks and what they do to us is not right.

[Jeannette]

if you say that you "chose" transition to be happy, yet you sound unhappy in 95% of your threads, posts, and personal blog.  Hey, sorry but you'd better set your priorities right or stop acting like a martyr.  i don't know who you are trying to fool with this "i chose transition to be happy".  really? well, then i don't want to hear your whines about not being able to handle what you have "chosen".  period.

Lol  do I cry too bloody much?   I do.  Sorry.  I deserve it.  I chose it.

muaaaahhhhh

[MeganRose]

if you say that you "chose" transition to be happy, yet you sound unhappy in 95% of your threads, posts, and personal blog.  Hey, sorry but you'd better set your priorities right or stop acting like a martyr.  i don't know who you are trying to fool with this "i chose transition to be happy".  really? well, then i don't want to hear your whines about not being able to handle what you have "chosen".  period.

I may be acting a little self-centred here, but I assume that since I was the one who actually made the point of saying I transitioned to be happy, you are referencing my blog and other previous posts? If that is the case, I'd like to say something before I regret over-reacting.

Have you actually read anything I have ever written on this forum? Go ahead, sift through my blog if you think it won't make you too physically ill. Yes, I've written some pretty depressed "why is this happening to me" type stuff - and really, I have every right to. What, you think I should be overjoyed by something like feeling like I'm losing my family, or feel happy that I was alive to experience something wonderous and beautiful like being drugged and assaulted at a party and then being told by a doctor that it was my own fault? I'd really like to see you justify that, I really would. Tell me to my face I have no right to be upset about feeling alone, worthless, and being in pain. I'd really like to know if you could actually be that heartless, come on, prove it to me.

I'm sick of this, I really am. Why I'm expending energy on people who obviously think I'm less than them, deserving of being labelled as insane, deluded and of possessing some kind of martyr complex, simply because I see my life and the directions I have taken it in differently to them, I have no idea. I'm obviously not going to convince anyone that I'm not insane, or that I'm deserving of the same respect that you would treat others with, who have already decided that I am. In my eyes, those of you posting comments like this are no better than the person in their car, leaning out the window and screaming "->-bleeped-<-got" as I walk past. My only doubt is over which is really the more bigotted, discriminatory view.

Megan

[Rachael]

Everything in life is a choice, some choices are just heavily weighted in one direction to the extent where it doesnt look like a choice.


R

[Anaya]

if you say that you "chose" transition to be happy, yet you sound unhappy in 95% of your threads, posts, and personal blog.  Hey, sorry but you'd better set your priorities right or stop acting like a martyr.  i don't know who you are trying to fool with this "i chose transition to be happy".  really? well, then i don't want to hear your whines about not being able to handle what you have "chosen".  period.

i understand why you say that it isn't a choice, i do, but i just see it differently. *sigh*
let's use another comparison.
Theres a DVD i want. I heard it's somewhat badly made, but the movie is awesome and i just have to watch it. So thinking i can handle the problems of the dvd i buy it and play it back. Turns out i can't handle it. The AUdio frequently changes between english aaaand... mmhm spanish (some language you are remotely familiar with, but are really bad at), the subtitles are completely out of sync with the video and the video quality at certain points is just horrible.
So i watched the movie and liked it very very much, but as i said it had many problems. i chose to watche the movie knowing it had problems, so in your opinion i shouldn't complain about the bad quality?

ok another one:
Theres a Walmart with real bad costumer service, the kind that insults you and even might beat you up. But it is the only store with the brand of clothing items that you are not ... allergic to. You could say, that you'd have no choice and have to buy those clothes (walking naked in public is of course not possible. Bart Simpson taught me that). I say that i could just go to the real friendly store on the other side of the road and live with a horrible rash and be sick all my life, and probably die early in life.
But i don't actually want that, so i choose to go over to walmart.
there you are greeted with a nice "welcome... idiot". So you go directly to those special clothes (marked there as "clothes for freaks") . You take them, turn around and suddenly see some walmart guy there who insults you and then proceeds to beat you up. things go on similarly all the way back to the exit of the store. Now, i chose to go to walmart although i knew that they would treat me that way, so according to you i shouldn't file a complaint?

mmh i really should stop making so many comparisions

[Rachael]

i think its less to do with insainity, its more that some people belive they must state they felt one way, to be accepted as 'truely transexual' by the ->-bleeped-<-stapo...

R