Our Gender Identity and Gender Roles What's the difference to you?

[Tessa James]

Assigned male at birth my feminine shadow never gave up and now I am free to experience life as close to being my feminine self as possible.  I always had a deep, if unspoken, sense that what i looked like was not who I really was.  For me there is a clear distinction that my gender identity is different than the cultural trappings of gender roles.  I love long hair, a feminine presentation and much closer integration of body and identity, but what do we feel that is the core essence of that feminine or masculine identity?  External physical features do not make us a man or woman.  Playing with dolls and caring for babies did not make me a girl, being a soldier or even a father did not make me a man.  It seems there are frequent threads on this site that subtly suggest that if I act like this, sit, walk or talk this way it confirms my trans identity.
If how we dress, how we act and even our body parts are not reliable indicators of who we are, what then is the core of our identity?

My guess is that our gender identity is all about how we feel and what can possibly be a reliable measure of our feelings?  What if we have systematically denied and repressed our feelings for decades?  Anyone have a feel-o-meter??

[alabamagirl]

I used to think I knew, but I really don't know why my identity is what it is anymore. All I know is that it is. Part of it is that I feel way more comfortable socializing as female than I did as male, but there's so much more to it than that. Back when I tried to live a cis life, I would look in the mirror, and even on my best days, something was just... off. I would tell myself things like "I'm just unhappy with my body because I'm overweight," or "I'm just unhappy because I'm not handsome enough," or any number of other things to explain away why I just didn't feel right in my body. But in the back of my mind, I always knew that no matter how thin I became or how handsome, I still wouldn't be happy. Imagining being those things didn't make me feel any better.

As for femininity... I used to think I knew what that was, too. I know what femininity is to me, but everyone has their own definition. For example, I'm very animated and expressive, and I value things like empathy and nurturing (to me this is the ultimate expression of femininity, like a motherly quality).

So... Yeah. Those are my feelings on my identity. Maybe they make sense to someone.

[helen2010]

TJ

Great question and it is one which I have often considered but not satisfactorily answered.  This may be because I am MTNB so I feel that I really do have all feelings and emotions available to me.  I no longer feel and certainly reject the view that feelings are gendered.  But  I do need to learn how to be fully present and authentic in order to do this.

However I still need to provide a cue, a physical or presentation cue, to align my identity with how I am seen, read or understood by others.  Yes, this is in theory unnecessary, but gender is in part socially constructed, and I do wish to be recognised and understood as neither a binary male or binary female.

Does this make any sense at all?  Sometimes I am no longer sure .  Perhaps it just needs to make sense to me.

Safe travels

Aisla

[Tessa James]

I know what femininity is to me, but everyone has their own definition. For example, I'm very animated and expressive, and I value things like empathy and nurturing (to me this is the ultimate expression of femininity, like a motherly quality).

So... Yeah. Those are my feelings on my identity. Maybe they make sense to someone.

I share your sense that expressions of empathy and nurturing are wonderfully feminine but they are not exclusively so and we all know that some woman don't go there and some men do.  I agree that it's our "own definition" of femininity but, to be more precise, what is it that make us female?  That big sweet "F" on my new drivers license sure isn't all of it.

[findingreason]

I tried for years to use what habits or activities I would involve myself in as a metric towards evaluating my gender identity. Being such a logical person and in computer science, I have always tried to use a sort of deductive reasoning and logic to apply to my understanding of myself and the world around me. It's very useful in some areas, but as far as identity, I have learned in the last couple years it is a very poor metric to evaluate yourself. The very definitions of what is "masculine" and "feminine" in activities, mannerisms, habits, etc, are highly subjective and continually changing. The notion that you can compartmentalize these things is insane at best. I have traveled abroad before, and norms in gender vary greatly throughout the world. Expression is most certainly different, and a number of variations are quite common. What is expected of males and females is highly variable on culture, and continually evolving.

Having come to very gradual terms that I am gender fluid, genderqueer, or bigender (still figuring that part out), has involved looking at something inside me far, far deeper than just outwardly things. This includes my body, my surroundings, my life choices, and so on. I still have yet to grasp what it is yet, but I do know that it has made my perspective on the world different since I have come to gradually embrace it. I'm actually grateful to a degree; it allows me to see new perspectives, and makes me WANT To experience different things and not limit myself to one particular way of living or being.

[Ms Grace]

To be honest I just tried to answer this in a way that made sense to me. And failed. All I can say is, a little from column A and a little from column B!

[alabamagirl]

I share your sense that expressions of empathy and nurturing are wonderfully feminine but they are not exclusively so and we all know that some woman don't go there and some men do.  I agree that it's our "own definition" of femininity but, to be more precise, what is it that make us female?  That big sweet "F" on my new drivers license sure isn't all of it.

You're right. There are certainly plenty of cis women who don't show any of the traits that make up my personal definition of femininity.

I honestly don't know what makes me view femininity the way I do, or what it is that makes me identify as female. Maybe it's something undefinable? Or maybe I'm just not self-aware enough to have figured it out yet. It is a very good question, though.

[Tessa James]

I tried for years to use what habits or activities I would involve myself in as a metric towards evaluating my gender identity. Being such a logical person and in computer science, I have always tried to use a sort of deductive reasoning and logic to apply to my understanding of myself and the world around me. It's very useful in some areas, but as far as identity, I have learned in the last couple years it is a very poor metric to evaluate yourself..... allows me to see new perspectives, and makes me WANT To experience different things and not limit myself to one particular way of living or being.

And logic gives way to the empirical?  I like your sense of adventure and being less limited

To be honest I just tried to answer this in a way that made sense to me. And failed. All I can say is, a little from column A and a little from column B!

Yes, this is hardly an easy exercise and thanks for at least tying to make sense

[Tessa James]

TJ

  I no longer feel and certainly reject the view that feelings are gendered.  Perhaps it just needs to make sense to me.

Safe travels

Aisla

I share your perspective about feelings being non gendered.  I never felt like a man but I also didn't have clue about how a woman feels.  HRT has expanded my emotional or feeling range and the "sense" of this might just be a philosophical answer that works?

[GnomeKid]

I do think there are a lot of people, trans and cis, who deny parts of themselves due to gender roles/expectations.  I'm sure I've done it.  Probably in some ways I never even realized.  When you're trying to hard to be something (even subconsciously) sometimes it feels like you have to take every option you have to be more like that thing.  I do/don't like this because its a male/female thing to like. 

One can't deny, trans or cis, that we are all somewhat shaped and swayed into one interest or away from another due to our social pasts.  Gender related or not.  Queers of all sorts just tend to have to take a closer look at gender in relation to themselves and social expectations.  Sometimes I actually think this allows us to actually find our true selves in ways most folks don't.  When you have to fight to be yourself you're probably going to be damn sure that its really who you are that you're fighting for.  Maybe thats why I tend to like queer folks better?  After a certain point they just have to say F-it this is who I am.  I don't care what you think.  It shows as a weird sort of confidence - albeit often just a front or defense mechanism it works. 

As far as myself and gender expression.  Now that I feel more complete in becoming myself as male I'm free to just strive to be a better person... not a better man by any specific means.  I feel free to like anything I want because I know it won't compromise my male status in my own mind. 

[LordKAT]

Gender Identity = who I am.

Gender role = how I act.

[Tessa James]

I do think there are a lot of people, trans and cis, who deny parts of themselves due to gender roles/expectations.  I'm sure I've done it.  Probably in some ways I never even realized.  When you're trying to hard to be something (even subconsciously) sometimes it feels like you have to take every option you have to be more like that thing.  I do/don't like this because its a male/female thing to like. 

One can't deny, trans or cis, that we are all somewhat shaped and swayed into one interest or away from another due to our social pasts.  Gender related or not.  Queers of all sorts just tend to have to take a closer look at gender in relation to themselves and social expectations.  Sometimes I actually think this allows us to actually find our true selves in ways most folks don't.  When you have to fight to be yourself you're probably going to be damn sure that its really who you are that you're fighting for.  Maybe thats why I tend to like queer folks better?  After a certain point they just have to say F-it this is who I am.  I don't care what you think.  It shows as a weird sort of confidence - albeit often just a front or defense mechanism it works. 

As far as myself and gender expression.  Now that I feel more complete in becoming myself as male I'm free to just strive to be a better person... not a better man by any specific means.  I feel free to like anything I want because I know it won't compromise my male status in my own mind. 

A powerful statement that rocks with me too, thank you

Gender Identity = who I am.

Gender role = how I act.

You so cracked me up with the truth and simplicity of how a guy would bring it on down in 6 words

[Foxglove]

Gender Identity = who I am.

Gender role = how I act.

This is very good.  For me, gender identity is simply that part of the mind (or what I call "my soul") that says "I'm male/female/other".  This has nothing to do with what sort of male/female/other you might be.

This is also where cisgender people get confused.  They think that gender identity is linked to your body, which is why they think we're confused.  They think we don't know what sort of bodies we have.  E.g., if you say, "My gender identity is female, they think you think you have a female body."  Which is why they view us as very confused or deluded.  And try to explain the situation to them.  It can be difficult with some of them.

At any rate, I describe myself as a female soul.  The body I got at birth was simply the shell I was given to live in.  And it didn't suit me at all.

[Dread_Faery]

Gender Identity = who I am.

Gender role = how I act.

Gender presentation = how I communicate both of these

[ImagineKate]

I have something to compare it to since I am not a native born American citizen. The best I can describe it is that it is an identity.

When I moved to America I had to drop a lot of my "old country" customs, yet I retained some as part of me. That part will probably NEVER go away just like my Y chromosome will never go away. Yet I learned to be American and I am still learning. I had to learn how to socialize with Americans, American values, culture, customs. And like womanhood it is very diverse. For example NYC is not like Dallas.

But we do have an identity at our core and THAT to me is what defines our gender. All other things grow out of that. In the case of gender, how we dress, how we talk, how we socialize.

And like I will never be able to run for president, there are aome things I can never do as a trans woman. It breaks my heart but it is what it is.

[Tessa James]

Kate thank you for sharing from such a different and personal perspectives.  The international community viewpoint with "customs" and socializing as both an emigre and trans person is a pretty cool mix.  I imagine that is a lot to sort out some days?

Dread Faery thanks for more simplicity in cosmological explanations

Foxglove I think many people have a real challenge in seeing past that body image bias.  My first public coming out trans statement was "I know how I look but that's not who I am"

[Taka]

our lord kat is pretty much right, except that i've started doubting the existence of a gender identity withing me.
i don't think i identify all that much more with men than women.
but i do believe that my brain structure expects something quite different from what the rest of my body does.
and i think my brain is trying to tell me what is wrong, by saying it would be better to have a body that is more typical of men.

of course i experienced some identity crisis because of this. being told i'm something, when i'm "obviously" not, will cause confusion.

all that has to do with my identity is pretty much construed, apart from the physical parts like dna and time and place of birth. the things that can be used to identify me as a specific entity.
all the rest is... how i define myself within society. my national identity, ethnic identity, political identity.
so many groups that i define myself in relation to.

but my gender is different from that. it forms my identity, but it isn't the same as it.
my gender is a part of my body, or actually even worse. it's a part of the control center of my body.
it's identity on a much deeper level than how the word is normally used.

just like talking about sexual identity.
i don't have a sexual identity. i simply have a sexuality.
i'm attracted to some things, turn off by others. it isn't my identity, but it can shape my identity.

my gender identity is just the label i choose to try and identity my gender to others.
but my gender itself just is.
i doesn't define me as a person. it's simply one of those things that are me, inhabiting a different part of my brain than what my personality does.

do i even make sense?

[LordKAT]

do i even make sense?

Yes and no.


Our identity is who we are. We are many things, parents, children, spouses, etc. These are all a part of who we are. Gender is a part of that mix. Sex is a part of that mix. Just as we can both parent and child, we can have both a gender identity and a sexual identity.

[Taka]

hmm...

i'm thinking of something like how blue is blue whether or not you identify it, and how it will only be identified when it's among other colors. but you don't usually ask blue what color identity it has, it simply is that color.

so my gender is what i am.
and my gender identity is what i call it, in order to identify it as different from something else, or somewhat similar to another known gender identity.

if i'm still not making sense, i must be walking down a most strange and uncommon philosophical path. or i'm just not finding the right definitions for people to understand what i'm talking about.

[Tessa James]

That is one reason I posed the question.  Gender identity has been challenging for me to define beyond who I am.  It seemed easier to say what I was not at times.  Many of us see our gender identity having some degree of fluidity.   It also seems that people here sometimes look at gender roles we exhibit to define or affirm being transgender; I'm more a girl or guy because I do this or like that.  We try to nail it down or be able to explain it well to ourselves and others.

I think Taka is on to that.  We do know the world through comparative context and those early tapes often featured a traditional mother and father as role models and gender models? 
Our brains have a constant "match game" going on in the process of learning.  To some degree we can only know the world through this comparative process?  What are we learning about ourselves here?  I have been reassured and challenged by how others color outside the lines.