the term "full-time"

[Frank]

I've just noticed that mtfs tend to use the term going "full-time" more than ftms. I don't actually think I've seen ftms using it, but then we probably use "passing" more...but that's also an umbrella term. I want to hear your opinions on why "full-time" is almost exclusively an mtf thing.

[Lady_Oracle]

Really? I always figured its a term all of us undergoing the full transition ends up using at some point. I think it's because there's just more of us trans women on here vs trans men is why you probably don't see it being discussed as much. There's also a bunch of people here who don't fully transition too so that's another factor to consider and on top of the fact that there's lots of people that come here who are just starting to transition/questioning so the concept of full time isn't even on their radar. 

[LordKAT]

I think it is because it is not as traumatic for FTM's since the clothing issue isn't something that causes harassment as it does for MTF's.


I've been dressing the same way all my life, I think most MTF's are forced into wearing 'male' apparel while we are not.

[David27]

I think most of it has do with women having greater freedom in gender presentation. A transman who doesn't pass= butch lesbian to others where as a transwoman who doesn't pass=man in a dress. Unfortunately for transwomen a man in a dress is a joke and bathroom issues make going full time much different as men don't typically freakout if you don't pass in the restroom.

[Ms Grace]

For m2f it has to do with saying I'm no longer presenting in a male persona, it's usually a line in the sand where beforehand we are dabbling and switching between modes. At some point many of us will say "no more switching!" Given that f2m people can often present in a more gender neutral even masculine way prior to transition whereas m2f don't have as much leeway (ie, dressing in a frock while still presenting as male might get you beaten up or ridiculed) so perhaps the transition needs to be psychologically more "definite"? Other than that I haven't got a clue!

[stephaniec]

I think girls growing up have a lot more leeway in the clothes they wear . a 9 , 12,17, 21 year old male in a dress would be noticed where as  the same aged female in jeans and an army jacket wouldn't.

[Abby Claire]

It's probably mostly because of clothes. FtMs usually can start wearing mens clothes before even starting hormones and no one blinks an eye. They can slowly evolve. MtFs usually start hormones before going in public dressed as a woman, so the transition from presenting male and then presenting female can change in just one day.

I dunno. I'm tired and kinda loopy, so hopefully this makes sense to others lol

[Lady_Oracle]

Yep I agree with that Abbey and what Ms. Grace stated. The issue of how powerful T is on our bodies regarding how heavy our physiques change and the double standard of wearing feminine clothing.

[Zumbagirl]

The phrase "full-time" to me meant the point at which the clock started ticking to where I would be able to obtain letters for my Srs surgery. I didn't want to give the psychiatric community more of my money and time than I had to.

[suzifrommd]

Yeah, that's something one of my FtM friends noticed.

Our hormones don't do much for us. For us transitioning is an effort of will. We decide to change our voices, our dress, etc., and then we do it.

For FtM's it's different. Their hormones do the work for them. With the exception of chest and bottom, when an FtM takes hormones, his body eventually becomes male. There's no day they can say "yesterday I had a female body but today it's male".

Also, our surgery still requires a "real life test" so we need some way to mark when that's started.

[Megumi]

As stated by others, MtF's have many more societal issues to deal with in regards to getting to be themselves. Dressing as a guy pretty much sets you inside of a very small box of what you can wear or how you can act and that be considered "ok" and anything outside of that box can get you attacked or worse as we are now seen as some kind of threat to society. FtM's can dress very masculine and be themselves with very little societal repercussions, that "free pass" is worth more than most can ever imagine.
For me going full time meant the moment when I started living my life as who I am, at all times. There was a definite sudden switch when I started living authentically. At work it literally was one day I was a guy 100% through and through "my co-workers did NOT see this coming which still baffles me to this day" and over the course of the weekend I come back to work on Monday as a woman. There were people that didn't even recognize that I was who I was and introduced themselves as if this was the first time we were meeting this new female employee. That date is a gatekeeping requirement for me getting to finally have my life affirming surgery. While I know less than 10 FtM's in person vs the 30 something MtF's one thing that is vastly different between the two groups is that it's much harder to define that moment when FtM's started living authentically as there isn't such a sudden shift where one day they were Female and the next they were Male. They had a much easier time getting to the point of living authentically as they slowly worked their way into it as they were able to explore who they are and how they preferred to dress all while the people around them easily accepted the transition over time. I have never heard any of them mention the word full time when talking about themselves untill it was brought up in discussion by some MtF's talking to each other in a group setting.

[LizMarie]

For transgender patients, full time is a phrase that describes what the WPATH SOC also calls "real life experience" or "real life test". It means living, working, and existing every minute of every day as the gender with which you associate, not your birth gender.

In particular, certain surgeries have guidelines associated with them that strongly recommend the completion of a certain length of "full time" experience before the surgery is granted and approved.

Since FTMs frequently do not do bottom surgery (due to it not yet being as advanced as many would like), this impacts FTMs less frequently than MTFs, many more of whom do seek bottom surgery, which is tied to a WPATH SOC full time living guideline.

This may explain why MTFs discuss "full time" more often than FTMs.

[Zumbagirl]

I've noticed that being "full-time" before even starting hormones is VERY common among FtMs, but not so much among MtFs.

Chalk it up to societal pressure. You guys don't have to worry about backlash as much. Yes you have to deal with the same rejection from friends and family, but socially your issue is more with being "invisible," where people can't even tell that you're trans, they just assume that you're butch lesbians or something. So while misgendering is just as much of an issue, (actually, probably more so,) not so much worrying about being seen as a freak by anonymous people. To you guys, going "full-time" is more just living authentically, which doesn't necessarily have a set start point. Where when MtFs try wearing female clothes, it's a pretty big deal that we need to look the part. (Because of a little thing called trans-misogyny.) Or else we can get stares and laughs and possibly heckled by people. So it's a much bigger deal when we go full-time because it's basically saying "this is the day that I faced my fears and decided to finally be myself."

I don't think the guys have it so easy either. Tough looking butch lesbians aren't exactly corporate leaders or rising up in society. Plus they start off from the female perspective so that had a different social upbringing in their youth. I don't think that they have much better clothing choice since that is where we are getting down to right? The thing for MTFs is fear and discovered. "omigod I have a dress on! What if somebody I know sees me?". Once the fear is removed that argument holds no more weight.

I personally believe that the reasons for "full time" is for surgery tracked individuals from both sides of the gender spectrum. Those who desire genital surgery worry about the countdown to getting letters and finally getting out of the system so they can live their lives in peace and quiet without a constant stream of medical poking and prodding

[mac1]

It is probably that society is more open toward women dressing as they choose and being accepted in traditional male roles.
(1) Women can wear any clothes of their choice without prejudice.
(2) Women can be accepted in men's public restrooms without fear of legal action.
(3) Women are still allowed to have women only activities (exercise clubs, sports activities, etc.).
(4) Women reporters are allowed in men's locker rooms (even when the men are nude) following sports events.
(5) Women have become accepted in all occupations. There is no longer a male only profession.

There are many other examples of female preference. There is no longer (male only) but (female only) still exists.

[Zumbagirl]

It is probably that society is more open toward women dressing as they choose and being accepted in traditional male roles.
(1) Women can wear any clothes of their choice without prejudice.
(2) Women can be accepted in men's public restrooms without fear of legal action.
(3) Women are still allowed to have women only activities (exercise clubs, sports activities, etc.).
(4) Women reporters are allowed in men's locker rooms (even when the men are nude) following sports events.
(5) Women have become accepted in all occupations. There is no longer a male only profession.

There are many other examples of female preference. There is no longer (male only) but (female only) still exists.

(1)
Anyone can wear any clothes they want. It's not you or I that get to decide how you look it's how you wish to be perceived by society in general. If you want to go out and be seen as a woman, then be a woman. If you want to be a man in a dress with a beard and hairy chest showing then go ahead but you might not make it very far. If you are not out, then you just don't realize that there is no wall separating what one can wear especially if one is MTF it's make believe. The only barriers are the mind. Do the right things and you can disappear into a crowd. If you want to stick out then stick out. What I have found over the years is that there are women who don't dress their age, and they will get "ewww, did you see that fat bi**ch in the skin tight dress? She looks like a pig wrapped in bacon! Gross". Yeah that happens and a lot from woman to woman. The longer I live the more I witness the deep prejudices that people harbor inside them simply because they don't want to know or understand. If you fit a certain description of what society deems man or woman then all is right with the world

(2)
A few years ago I was somewhere, I just don't remember, but the women's room near where I was was closed and the next closest women's room was quite a hike. So Ifigured what the hell, try the men's room. I said hello before I walked in and no one said anything. When I walked inside there was a man in there and looked at me and said get the hell out of her, this is the men's room.

(3)
What about hunting, fishing, football. I could go on and on but men have their own little "boys club" too. Besides I find women only activities kind of boring. It's nice to talk and socialize for a little bit and then after that I am done. I have a woman I work with who belongs to some knitting circle at work and I made the mistake once of telling her I used to knitting when I was little. Since then I have had a number of offers to join and honestly I would rather strangle myself with yarn than make something useful out of it,

(4)
Who cares? Does it make a difference. If that athlete is married with a family do you think he is walking around the locker room with his junk hanging out? I doubt it. Most men I have found are a little leery about having their junk hanging for fear that there might be someone else close by with bigger junk.

(5)
My company was just sued for millions of dollars last year because of a sex discrimination lawsuit when a man who was less qualified was promoted over a woman who was more qualified. The company sent out letters talking about how they would address pay inequality. Then one day I get a call from my boss and find out that "presto I am getting a 5% raise" because I was underpaid compared to my peers. So are women accepted in male dominated fields? Yeah, but....when it comes to work pay inequality is very real.

[Jessica Merriman]

Zumba you are missing the point sweetie. MtFs are considered by the general public as potential molesters, rapist's, etc., when in female area's. The same attitude does NOT prevail against females in male area's. This attitude adds a whole new dimension to the trials and challenges of MtFs in relation to real life full time experience.

[mac1]

Zumba you are missing the point sweetie. MtFs are considered by the general public as potential molesters, rapist's, etc., when in female area's. The same attitude does NOT prevail against females in male area's. This attitude adds a whole new dimension to the trials and challenges of MtFs in relation to real life full time experience.

Thank you for the support.

I forgot to mention that example.

[Jessica Merriman]

Thank you for the support.

I was hoping that was where you were going! 

[ImagineKate]

My view is that RLE for MtFs is much more difficult without hormones because of clothing, hair and physical features.  Not kidding.

FtMs can cut their hair and wear more loose clothing and they can pass more easily, in my opinion. Why? A lot of men don't have much facial hair, some shave it away and a few even go for electrolysis..

Whereas if a MtF wears female clothing in many cases it doesn't fit right and it is very obvious that they are not female shaped because female clothing is often more form fitting. Hormones take care of that in most cases and "passing" is much easier once you've been filled out by hormones.

There is also the stigma of a man in a dress. Women wear pants. Have worn them for a long time. Do men wear skirts? Apart from kilts and religious or ethnic wear, in western cultures the answer is generally NO.

Other points are valid - the stigma of men as child molesters, rapists etc.

[mac1]

Some woman high school teachers have recently been convicted of having sexual encounters with boy students. However, women are still not seen as sexual predators.