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When do breasts (acceptable/PG), become "boobs" (obscene)

Started by LeftistLeslie, September 22, 2014, 04:26:48 AM

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LeftistLeslie

I have a question. When do breasts (acceptable/PG), become "boobs" (obscene/NC17)? There is a sort of paradox. Society says that men's breasts are acceptable. Women's breasts are obscene, sexual, and pornographic. Which is not a paradox, until you get people who are inbetween in some way or another, either people who are non-binary or people like me who are fairly early in transition. Supposing I start hormones, when do my breast become "pornographic" and dirty. Is it when I decide to transition? When I start hormones? When they droop? All of the above options create more questions. For instance what about cis gender guys who have no intention to transition at all and have man boobs because of some medical condition. and then there are FTMs, when do their boobs start becoming chests?

I tend to think like a mathematician so I want to know. What makes a boob a boob and a chest a chest?
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Ms Grace

Well I can only answer that by saying your breasts are never pornographic or obscene. Sure, Western Society has a taboo obsession but they are a natural, normal part of the body.

Re the taboo the main issue is more the nipple which is regarded as obscene (for some daft reason).

As for when a chest becomes breast I'd suggest it's when the area directly behind the nipple becomes jiggly. Generally a moob (man boob), no matter how big, is OK because it's on a dude; a boob becomes "obscene" because it's on a woman. That is the only difference.
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
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Taka

boobs aren't obscene. they're beautiful and fascinating. when a boob is visibly a boob, desirable to most gynesexuals, it should be covered. in cultures where they don't cover the chest, maybe not even what's downstairs, they often are very strict on how low you can allow yourself to rest your eyes on a person's body. chest is obviously off limits on a woman.

female breasts are recognized as objects of sexual attraction around the world, independent on culture. showing them to anyone other than a partner or other females would be really breaching some privacy borders. not only your own, but also those of the ones who happen to see your naked breasts. most cis girls instinctively know when their breasts need to be covered, even those who grow up in a nudist family will instinctively feel like their breasts aren't really supposed to be shown to just anyone (there has been done research on this).

moobs are a completely different story. men don't have boobs even if they have breast growth. probably a sexual thing that too, men aren't commonly attracted to other men just because they have breasts.

what makes the difference is whether the bearer is a man or a woman, not how big the boobs are.
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Nicole

Yes! I'm single
And you'll have to be pretty f'ing amazing to change that
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Brenda E

Quote from: LeftistLeslie on September 22, 2014, 04:26:48 AMSupposing I start hormones, when do my breast become "pornographic" and dirty. Is it when I decide to transition? When I start hormones? When they droop?

An interesting question.  In and of themselves, they're never really pornographic and dirty until you yourself start treating them in such a manner; flashing them to drunk guys at Mardi Gras, etc.  Nobody's going to bother you if you keep them private and covered.  Start wandering around the mall topless on a Saturday afternoon and you're probably gonna attract some attention.

They can be as droopy or perky as you like, but as long as they're kept reasonably private, you're good to go.

Rules of thumb (and I'm just shooting from the hip here):

- If you're presenting as male, small mannish mooby boobs exposed at the beach or pool won't bother anyone, even if you know they're caused by HRT and not by gobbling down too many burgers.
- If you're presenting as female, keep them covered unless you're in private.
- If other women have theirs covered in any particular situation, you probably should too.
- If in doubt, a bra or bikini top is a good idea.
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Illuminess

Because the female body has become so extremely sexualised revealing breasts in public has become just as obscene as flashing your genitals. It would only be fair for both sexes to go topless wherever they please, but society is programmed to see breasts and immediately become aroused or offended. I've seen some girls who challenge this programming by walking the streets topless, but the way things are today they're just inviting the sexually repressed to attack them. No, they're not "asking for it" consciously, but we're just not balanced enough as a society for such a thing to go unnoticed by predators.

Breasts are not pornographic by nature at any stage of development. It's all in societal programming. Personally, I wouldn't care. Would I look? Yep. Would I stare and think sexual thoughts? Nope. I would probably think, "oookayy.. you don't see that every day..." and continue on with my business. Sadly, not everyone thinks that way. So, there's no tipping point between acceptable and pornographic. I mean, there are idiots out there who think public breast feeding is obscene. These people need to get lives.
△ ☾ Rıνεя Aяıп Lαυяıε ☽ △

"Despair holds a sweetness that only an artist's tongue can taste."Illuminess
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TashaEve


Had a very interesting moment a while back when I went to have a spa in our buildings occupier only spa.

I wasn't really developed yet, but I had started with some 'behind the nipple' jiggle. I wore board shorts because I was still presenting male. No top.
My partner stopped me and told me I should wear a shirt. I was gob-smacked.
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Nicole

Boobs are never obscene and should never be.

I've gone topless a few times, I've posed nude for self portraits, I've posed nude with 10,000 others for a mess naked shoot in Sydney.

I've taken the top off at the beach and never felt like anyone was upset or even getting turned on by it.


Each to their own, its when you feel that you don't want the world to see them.

Before HRT, I would never have my top off, I hated people seeing my chest, even as a child.
Yes! I'm single
And you'll have to be pretty f'ing amazing to change that
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♥︎ SarahD ♥︎

Basically you've stumbled across the logical fallacy that exists in western society that Feminists have been pointing out for decades lol.

It's ok to show a man's nipples, but not a woman's.  Male orgasm is rated PG13, but female orgasm is rated R.. starting to notice a pattern here? ;)
*Hugs*
"You never find the path to your true self, but rather - you find your true self along the path"
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Ms Grace

Quote from: Nicole on September 23, 2014, 12:40:49 AM
...I've posed nude with 10,000 others for a mass naked shoot in Sydney...

Hey, I was there too! :D

I didn't have boobs then though... :(
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
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Kaelin

As a mathematician, I am disinclined to draw a moral distinction between showing a "male" chest and a "female" chest.  Society is rife with double-standards regarding gender, though, so it's only natural society gets hung up on non-binaries.  The closest thing to a "clear" difference that emerges, I think, is for women to potentially produce noticeably-erect nipples -- indeed, women are often permitted to show about every part of their boobs except their nipples -- although I feel this point takes itself too seriously.  Still, for someone getting on hormones, wearing a shirt around after three months may be good to avoid trouble (mileage varies).

KiraD's point was discussed fairly well in the film "This Film is Not Rated" (available on Netflix and elsewhere).  Women's sexuality and "gay" sexuality tends to be rated more strictly by the MPAA than a "straight" male's sexuality* (even if it involves a male having sex with a pie).  Given the structure of the MPAA (socially-conservative, secretive, unprofessional, and defensive) and the influence it has (it judges which behaviors are deemed "normal" by people who predominately watch PG-13 movies instead of R movies, or who watch R movies instead of NC-17 movies), it's not surprising that these attitudes are perpetuated.  If women's sexuality was normalized a bit more, boobs would probably produce less of a reaction in people and may lead to a relaxation in policy (at least in some states) -- all the breastfeeding mothers out there would probably appreciate it.

* Granted, a lot of male sexuality involves female sexuality at the same time.  However, the story/camera can place the focus on a person of one specific gender.  When James Bond almost invariably has sex with an antagonist female, the focus is on *him*.
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VeronicaLynn

Quote from: Kaelin on September 23, 2014, 07:39:14 AM
As a mathematician, I am disinclined to draw a moral distinction between showing a "male" chest and a "female" chest.  Society is rife with double-standards regarding gender, though, so it's only natural society gets hung up on non-binaries.  The closest thing to a "clear" difference that emerges, I think, is for women to potentially produce noticeably-erect nipples -- indeed, women are often permitted to show about every part of their boobs except their nipples -- although I feel this point takes itself too seriously.  Still, for someone getting on hormones, wearing a shirt around after three months may be good to avoid trouble (mileage varies).
I wonder just what trouble one could get in if one were to be transitioning but still legally male and presenting a such and denied being on HRT or refused to answer...maybe the whole anti-bare breast law would have to be overturned, or maybe just everyone would have to cover up. I don't want see some hairy fat guy without a shirt on, who really does? If there were to be a law forbidding toplessness, shouldn't it be the other way around?
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Kaelin

Regulations of non-violent behavior is trending towards being more permissive, so female toplessness is more likely to be legalized (even if unlikely) than male toplessness is to be prohibited (almost certain to not happen).  I think it may be more useful to argue for the former.  Seeing more ugliness can disturb you, but there's a selfish reason for embracing it: having more cisgender ugliness will make it easier for more trans people to be adequately presentable and not stand out so much.
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Gothic Dandy

Well most stores do have the "no shoes, no shirt, no service" rule, which extends to men...it's not really socially acceptable for men to walk around topless in public unless they're at the beach.

Anyway, this brings up an interesting point. I hadn't thought about what happens when you're non-binary, or in the middle of transition. I did imagine myself after top surgery, walking around topless for the first time in front of someone who knew me before then, and wondered whether or not that would freak them out. Or how a man I knew would feel if I were flat-chested and topless but still feminine enough that he thought of me as mostly female.
Just a little faerie punk floating through this strange world of humans.
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Dee Marshall

Being topless has been legal in New York State for some time. I was surprised to find that it's legal in about 35 or forty states, illegal in only five or six, and the laws are ambiguous in the rest.
April 22, 2015, the day of my first face to face pass in gender neutral clothes and no makeup. It may be months to the next one, but I'm good with that!

Being transgender is just a phase. It hardly ever starts before conception and always ends promptly at death.

They say the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. I say, climb aboard!
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Nicole


Quote from: Ms Grace on September 23, 2014, 04:44:27 AM
Hey, I was there too! :D

I didn't have boobs then though... :(

One of the best days of my life.
I studied him at uni, mum paid for the flight with my best friend.
Got up at 1am, walked there, waited for hours, did the shoot and sat around thinking "now what to do".
So happy I did it
Yes! I'm single
And you'll have to be pretty f'ing amazing to change that
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