Should someone be allowed SRS who is not planning to present as a female?

[suzifrommd]

With increasing frequency, we've been seeing forum members speak of a need for gender surgery without socially transitioning. E.g. living post-op as a male with a vagina. They're looking for a way to do this.

The reasoning is usually something like this:
* They have body dysphoria but not social dysphoria.
* Lots of men live perfectly happy lives with vaginas. We have dozens of them posting on our FtM forum.
* Going through an RLE requires needless effort on their part and an uncomfortable year and is not helpful in decided how they want their body shaped.
* The WPATH requirement for RLE is a "guideline" and not a "rule".

Most of the time they are actively discouraged from doing this, often by the site staff. Their reasoning:
* RLE is a good idea because doctors require it.
* This is a huge step, and it's not unreasonable to require a patient to spend a year thinking about it.
* If you're not ready to live as a woman, you're probably not ready for SRS either.

What do you think? Should someone be allowed SRS who is not planning to present as a female?

[justpat]

   YES !

[Dread_Faery]

I think that the idea that people who want to physically transition also want to be fully perceived as the gender normally associated with that physical sex is an example of binary privilege.

[Jill F]

I personally think you should be able to modify your body any way you see fit.   It's your body, your business.

Sign a waiver that says you can't sue if you have regrets.   You can tattoo your face, pierce your junk or do any of a number of radical body modifications without a letter from a shrink, so why not SRS?

Just my opinion.

[Donna Elvira]

With increasing frequency, we've been seeing forum members speak of a need for gender surgery without socially transitioning. E.g. living post-op as a male with a vagina. They're looking for a way to do this.

The reasoning is usually something like this:
* They have body dysphoria but not social dysphoria.
* Lots of men live perfectly happy lives with vaginas. We have dozens of them posting on our FtM forum.
* Going through an RLE requires needless effort on their part and an uncomfortable year and is not helpful in decided how they want their body shaped.
* The WPATH requirement for RLE is a "guideline" and not a "rule".

Most of the time they are actively discouraged from doing this, often by the site staff. Their reasoning:
* RLE is a good idea because doctors require it.
* This is a huge step, and it's not unreasonable to require a patient to spend a year thinking about it.
* If you're not ready to live as a woman, you're probably not ready for SRS either.

What do you think? Should someone be allowed SRS who is not planning to present as a female?

Suzi,
That's the second time I have seen you write that "Lots of men live perfectly happy lives with vaginas...." 

Given the lengths so many of these "perfectly happy men" go to get that problem fixed, I am really intrigued by how you can make such an affirmation which goes very contrary to my own reading of the FTM threads which, on the contrary, has me thinking most would vastly prefer to have a penis if it were easily done.  Would you care to develop?

Regarding the rest of your post, given the number of people who have raised this question directly over the last few weeks, it is well worth asking. 

My own take on it is that for someone who is already living as a woman and is happy, GRS looks like quite a logical step to take for both practical and psychological reasons.

For someone who is planning to continue to live as a man with no intention of ever living as a woman, it is hard, if not to say impossible, to see any practical reason to do so such surgery. Beyond that,  if the intent is really to continue living as a man, in every sense of the term, I'm inclined to believe that in the person's own interest, the psychological motivations should probably be investigated even more than for a more typical MTF as we are getting dangerously close to what could look like automutilation. Not saying it should never be done, just that it would probably require even more precautions than usual.

Just to make sure I'm making myself clear, I can understand that there are MTF's  who want to get GRS done but who, for practical reasons can't transition. They still identify as female though. What I am assuming is we are talking about people who do not identity as female but nevertheless think they would be happier with a vagina than with a penis. 

[Monkeymel]

I'm not going to say it is wrong. Just as growing breasts and staying male is also not wrong. However SRS is a major change for the psyche - and a major change in personal living conditions. And this is where there should be help from therapists so that the patient can learn to adapt. I write this because it is the adaptation of the psyche is exactly what I'm going through now.

So yes, why not. But it needs a support system to be tolerant and understanding; and is that in place? And at the end - the patient may be (wrongly) considered ftm. Public changing rooms and showers / locker rooms may not be accepting. And if the patient went to jail would they be allowed solitary cells?

Ftm have successfully transitioned for years. My gyno is ftm and has not had bottom surgery, looks amazing and works out regularly. So it can be done - in a tolerant country where people respect each other. And that is probably where it needs work and careful thinking through of the consequences.

[Jess42]

I agree with what Jill said. It's your body and you should be able to modify it anyway you see fit. I definitely agree about the waiver thing though too. Any regrets later, too bad.

[Athena]

Even though I think the option of srs without presentation should be available I would caution restraint. I am not a fan of gate keeping, for myself it might mean that I will not get the help that I do need because I feel that the therapist who holds my life in their hands is an adversary and not to be trusted with my deepest feelings and problems. That being said if one were to get srs without presenting I think that there should be other requirements such as strict gate keeping that they would need to go through to insure that this is the correct path for the trans individual.

Regret should be kept to a minimum.

[Adam (birkin)]

Well, I'm not really one to interfere with others making what they feel is the best choice for themselves. That being said though, being a man with a vagina (or a woman with a penis) comes with a great deal of challenges. It's not so simple as it being under your clothes and then living as any cisgender person would. You have to deal with romantic situations, social situations that involve a degree of nudity (locker rooms, even hanging out with friends who are comfortable changing in front of one another because 'we're all men here'), medical situations (including possible discrimination and/or carelessness towards health issues involving that part of your body).

As with a full-on social transition, I just think this is one of those situations that requires a huge ass reality check to assess if the benefits outweigh the consequences.

[mac1]

I am in favor of lowering the requirements for full or partial GRS.

[Jessica Merriman]

I don't care either way. My only issue is they should have to perform some type of RLE just as I have to. I am having to earn mine and that is all I ask of anyone. It is a slippery slope though. If we allow just anyone to get SRS and the regret statistic soar we will all have problems by providers making even harder than it is to get SRS. Mental health certification should be performed just like with me.

[Miss_Bungle1991]

I personally think you should be able to modify your body any way you see fit.   It's your body, your business.

Sign a waiver that says you can't sue if you have regrets.   You can tattoo your face, pierce your junk or do any of a number of radical body modifications without a letter from a shrink, so why not SRS?

Just my opinion.

This is the way I see it. I had to do this for my orchi. I told the surgeon that: "Don't worry. You won't be sued. I have no regrets. It's cool." But that was after I stopped laughing after being asked: "Are you sure that you want to do this?" five times in a row. The way I see it: You are an adult, you sign some papers saying that you waive the right to sue later on and that's it. I think the entire idea of a Real Life Test is dumb as hell. If you are so stupid that you don't fully understand the ramifications of what you are doing, that is YOUR problem and not the doctor. I was lucky to have a therapist that felt the same way. But he was also smart enough to not just rubber stamp a letter for HRT after 90 days. It's YOUR responsibility for what happens and no one else.

[Missy~rmdlm]

Sure, I personally know an individual who has done that. However the long term effect of HT and so on will probably cause male fail. That's their issue to consider.

It's always my recommendation to do as little as possible towards transition, one transitions because they have to, nothing more. In the event SRS only is right for an individual, go for it.

[TerriT]

I just read a story about a woman who had a 3rd boob (Total Recall style) installed for reasons of her own. I've also read stories about people who wanted other body parts, legs, an arm, whatever, amputated. I'd guess you can pretty much find a surgeon somewhere to do whatever you want, usually at great risk to your health. I know places where you can find a piercer who will bifurcate your junk if that's what you're into. Sounds like fun.

I don't think any of it is wise but I don't care what you do to yourself. I'll leave my SRS up to me, my surgeon and their requirements.

[Zumbagirl]

No. It will only take a handful of regretters and one  sinister right winger and we are back to square one again. Besides what is a surgeon to do? Are we going to let surgeons decide who gets the surgery or not? I would be willing to guess that they are not going to come down on this side at all.

[Umiko]

i kinda tried to stay out but i do think i should respond because this has been something that has been on my mind. i'm one of those one that has a desire to be female but i dont want clothing to be associate with this decision. i like the clothes i wear. i dont want to have to be forced to dress as a female just be considered for srs qualification. there are girls who dress like guys but they dont have the desire to become guys, as well as there are guys who dress in female clothing but they dont have the desire to become girls. the decision to get srs should be based on if that is something your truly want and wont regret later because for some people, wearing clothing associated to the gender they wish to become could cause their dysphoria so soar to deadly levels and could cause more harm than good. i do think there should be some type of system in place to fully determine and test that resolve for those who are in this position though. i'm not saying that you having to present as female for an entire year to be qualified to get srs is a bad idea, but for people like myself, there should be a separate system in place to assure if thats exactly what we truly want and wont regret instead of having us present as female. what it comes done to is the person's will to become whole at all cost so for some people, not saying all, but for some people, having to present as female could be a major road block.

[Jessica Merriman]

People can want what they want, but it all comes down to WPATH Standards of Care.

They are the defining protocol now right or wrong. We can talk this to death, but until there is a MEDICAL protocol in place for special situations you are all at the mercy of the system just like me. 

[AnonyMs]

My only issue is they should have to perform some type of RLE just as I have to. I am having to earn mine and that is all I ask of anyone.

I'm at a bit of a loss for words over this. I'm not sure how to put this, but you appear to be saying that others have to suffer just because you did? What about when people had to do RLE to get hormones - perhaps we should all keep doing that too?

[AnonyMs]

No. It will only take a handful of regretters and one  sinister right winger and we are back to square one again.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with this. It may actually make the usual transgender transition seem much more acceptable. There's a name for it, which I can't recall, but extreme proposals can be used to make less extreme ones seem more normal. So even if it all goes bad it could turn out to be good for most. Plus I think its a bit of a selfish attitude.

[Jaime R D]

Bring personal responsibility back into vogue and I think a lot of objections would drop. Me, I don't care, people can do what they want with their body so long as they are of sound mind and know the risks and are willing to take responsibility for their own choices for their own body and life. 

I think it would be better than forcing someone into a role they may be hesitant about just to make other people more comfortable about their own choice.