FTM's and the lesbian community

[Dennis]

So, have any of you guys (I am assuming that there are more than two if we include lurkers) been involved in the lesbian community before transition?

If so, how have you found the reaction?

I'm finding most people to be friendly and willing to change names and pronouns, but the odd person is a little hostile in small ways. One has said I won't be welcome to women only events that she is hosting and seemed to be somewhat disconcerted that I was fine with that. Another said that I needed to educate the community and bring them along with me, move at their pace, not too fast. I said that I'd be moving along as I, and my medical professionals, thought right and it would be great if the community would educate themselves as well, but that I was willing to answer any and all questions. I have seen other postings where some lesbians will take it as a personal and political affront, either joining the enemy or buying into the gender binary, to transition.

How about you guys? Cowboy, did your relationship with your partner start as a lesbian relationship or did you already know when you two got together?

Dennis

[cowboy]

Hey Dennis,
No I have never been in a lesbian relationship including the present relationship I am in now. As I have stated before, I am intersexed and I have had to live two lives for 39 years. When it came to relationships with women, every one I had was with a hetrosexual lady. I have always been attracted to "straight" women.
With my present relationship, the love making is different though because in the past, I never allowed a women to make love to me. I was the "pleaser" not the "pleased", but this was by my own choice due to my medical condition and what I have always considered my condition a "birth defect". I was ashamed of my body and I never wanted anyone to see the "mistakes" that it bared. But sazi has showed me I can be loved for who I am and she has taught me that God doesn't make mistakes. He just made me special. This is not to say I am not going to correct what needs correcting because for my own self wants/needs/desires I feel I have to continue with the transition to be the "complete" man I am.

[emmitt_boi]

Denis,

I came out as a lesbian about 8 years ago.  I just recently came out as trans/ genderqueer.  I am not really attracted to straight women or straight men.  Today my sexual identity is just queer.  I like gay woman and gay men.  Although my spiritual connection seems to only be with gay woman.

As for the lesbian community, I have found that older lesbians are not as accepting as younger ones.  I do not go to womyn only events because I feel uncomfortable.  I am not going to leave the lesbian community per se, I hope to educate them on trans issues.  But I have never exclusively hung out in the lesbian community because it never fully fit me.  I prefer to hang out with the gay guys.

[Drew]

Dennis,
I began to become romantically involved with women twenty-two years ago.  I was always a reluctant member of the "lesbian community", however.  I guess when you are in a woman's body, and you are dating women, "lesbian" is how you are seen.  I have not told any of my lesbian friends about my gender stuff, outside of my partner.  I am good friends with an ex of mine, and I have not even told her.  I think she would probaby end up being o.k. with it (after extensive therapy!) but she used to be one of those gals who cut off all ties with supposed "lesbian" friends if they fell in love with and married a man.  I have never been a separatist, and I have always found the use of "womyn, wimmen, and herstory" a tad tiring.  Although some lesbians undoubtedly see FTM's as betrayers, I don't feel a particular allegiance to any one group.  For the most part, if I actually go through with this, I think my friends will be o.k. 

[4years]

Wo-men
That 'men' part is distasteful.
Thus
Wo-myn.

At least, that is my uneducated impression of it anyway.

I think we should have just stuck with girl and boy

[kitten]

an odd thread to discuss this in, but here goes anyway ...

one needs to be very careful of people's sensitivities, because i for one do not claim to have a direct line to absolute truth, but as i understand it, the TS "community" such as it is is broadly split into two camps:

1) people who just identify with the "opposite" gender, and are in effect doing a 180 deg turn in their lives, "Male to Female" or "Female to Male".  Many of these take the attitude that after transition they will quietly drop back into the background of society, and just have full, normal lives as their new gender.  Amongst these are groups like "Womyn" who are intensely feminine in outlook and behaviour, and utterly reject the Male roles.

2) people who have a more complex (some would say confused) view and often criticise the binary Gender Roles of Man and Woman, insisting that it is at least a spectrum of positions, and having the view that finding ones place on the spectrum where one is comfortable is the ideal solution.  Such people often call themselves "gender queer" or "gender gifted" or similar, and reserve the right to adopt whatever behavioural patterns suit them, and whatever clothing they like.

to make matters more interesting, one cannot know at a glance whether a member of either group is going to use hormones, SRS, hair removal, FFS or indeed anything at all; which still remains an intensely personal decision.

for example, and to reveal my agenda, i am philosophically wedded to the group 2) gender gifted idea, which resonates deeply for me, and as a political activist i am "out there" ... but i am on hormones, wear skirts and lipstick, and intend the full transition M-->F. i don't see a conflict there, but i know some people who can't see how there cannot be one; i can only say that it works for me. 

[Leigh]

For the boys here.

http://www.transtherapist.com/writings/vidamedia.html

Of the approximately 10 men that I know who have transitioned all but one has left the lesbian community.

Once they leave they went their version of stealth.  Several are in relationships that started before transition, several came out as gay men and the others? I am sure there is virtually no difference in desires.  Just get on with life without bringing any more baggage from the past than you absolutely have to.  For me I could not imagine living where everyone knew my past.  I would always be *that* person, not who I am now and have always been even if they could not see *me* and I believe its the same way for many of the men transitioners at least here anyway.

Leigh

[Dennis]

Wow, Leigh, that was amazing. That's exactly how I feel. Thank you so much for posting it.

Just Wow. Gonna go re-read that. It resonates so much with me.

Edit: I think, upon re-reading, what resonates with me is that I don't feel so much male as non-female. I want the outward appearance of a male, I want the voice. I only changed my name because my old one would have caused dissonance with the appearance I hope to have. I don't really give a ->-bleeped-<- about the pronouns. I feel like a guy, but not like a man. And I don't feel bad about that, that's just the way I am. I also don't identify as genderqueer. I don't feel in the middle. (Am I contradicting myself enough yet?)

On the other hand, I just had guy-bonding night at the law firm and I did feel comfortable and like I fit in there, but I have a pretty crude sense of humour and a cynical approach to life, so that could explain that, I suppose. Besides, lawyers are kinda different anyway. I think if it had been guy-bonding night at the strip bar with the loggers, I would have felt very out of place.

I dunno, but that piece really hit it for me.

Dennis

[Leigh]

Dennis

Thanks. Usually I get yelled at for some of my views.

Quite a few of my friends here could be classed as masculine identified women: stone butch.  It is normal with them to use the male pronouns in reference to each other and even to me.

In that setting "he" is a sign of inclusion, of belonging to a subset that is part of but still a distinct subset of the womens community.  If I were to hear that in a different setting that would get my boxers (thats right boxers) in a huge wad.

Have you considered that maybe you are a female identified male?   It really doesn't matter, only you can say where you fit. 

Logger?  What part of Canada.  I mean what country has coins called a looney (sp) and a tooney (sp).

Leigh

[Dennis]

Western Canada, small town, Vancouver Island and a big logging community. As far as feeling female identified male, I'm not sure about that. I don't feel female in the least. My closest friends are of all stripes: two straight women (who feel like a different species), four gay men (with whom I feel a lot in common except for the dick thing), two straight men (with whom I feel a lot in common, but different for each), and two lesbians (with whom I feel a lot in common - we do theatre and singing together).

I dunno, I guess I'll just let my identity grow with my body.

Oh, and it's loonie and toonie

Dennis

[Drew]

4years nailed it...a group of women who are feminist to the point that "women", "woman"  are  seen as a connection to "men".  "History" is seen as his story...so that's bad, and they change it to "Herstory".  I lived in an all female boarding house in college, the population was almost all lesbian and we had two resident separatist lesbians.  I had a Beta, or Siamese fighting fish.  The males are commonly kept as pets, as they are beautiful in color, with long, flowing fins and tails.  Well, one of these gals came up to visit.  I think she was really trying to see where I stood on the whole separatist/woman continuum.  She noticed my fish, and asked it's name.  I replied, "Leroy".  She paused, then asked, "Why a MALE fish?"  Just to give some perspective...

[beth]

This is so cool,

4years nailed it...a group of women who are feminist to the point that "women", "woman"  are  seen as a connection to "men".  "History" is seen as his story...so that's bad, and they change it to "Herstory".  I lived in an all female boarding house in college, the population was almost all lesbian and we had two resident separatist lesbians.  I had a Beta, or Siamese fighting fish.  The males are commonly kept as pets, as they are beautiful in color, with long, flowing fins and tails.  Well, one of these gals came up to visit.  I think she was really trying to see where I stood on the whole separatist/woman continuum.  She noticed my fish, and asked it's name.  I replied, "Leroy".  She paused, then asked, "Why a MALE fish?"  Just to give some perspective...

i kept reading this over and over and i couldn't figure out why Drew would be in an all female boarding school!!!!!!     Just goes to show that it is possible to tell who is male and who is female thru a combination of their thoughts and words. Too bad the boring gender folks don't have this ability. 

love beth

[Drew]

These gals left a real bad taste in my mouth.  I actually went to the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival one year, '94?  The "womyn's festival" always had numerous workshops, such as "How to procreate parthenogenically with crystals" or "How to make your own drum out of birch bark".  Well, lucky for me, they had a workshop about transsexuals.  Or, why the festival did not allow MTF transsexuals.  I thought, "Finallly, a workshop I can get into".  Well, I went to this workshop, and there was one woman who was all for MTF's to get admittance into the festival.  To my shock, I discovered that the festival barred admittance to MTF's.  An unfortunate woman had been booted unceremoniously from the festival the previous year.  She'd purchased a plane ticket to get to the festival, but somebody recognized her from somewhere, and as the fest had Womyn born Womyn only restrictions, the festival women made her leave.  I believe they demanded to look at her genitalia.  It didn't matter that she had the correct genitalia.  I was out-raged. I was the only woman at the workshop outside of the facilitator who approved.  There were scores of dykes who insisted that MTF's were merely "voyeurs".  I exclaimed, "You mean, they cut their penises off just so they could see US naked?"  A separatist next to me looked disapprovingly at my shaven legs and informed me that shaving was "self-mutilation".  I asked her if her crew-cut was self-mutilation, as it was much more of a travesty than my legs, in my opinion.  They had a very un-solicitous opinion of MTF's, and I ended up boycotting the Festival for their policy on transsexuals.  What if my partner was an MTF?  Why should she be excluded?  They are as hateful as the far right conservatives in their attitudes.  Have not been since, although I wonder if Camp Trans is still in operation, right across the road, apparently.  Now, THAT would be a good time.

[michelle]

When we get true freedom to be ourselves then there will be true equality among men and women and women's social position will in world society will have evolved beyond our imagination.

[Leigh]

I actually [url]went to the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival one year, '94?   

www.eminism.org/readings/pdf-rdg/whose-feminism.pdf

A little more about the history of MWMF and camp trans

[cowboy]

     I have read and re-read these post and I don't know if I am missing something here or if it is because I am blonde, but I am so lost!!!!
I really don't mean to step on anyones toes here, but the whole issue of "genderqueer" just does not make sense to me. How can you say you have "gender" issues, yet you don't identify as one or the other? To me, you either feel you are male or female, it is plain and simple. Now don't get me wrong, speaking from personal experience and being intersexed, NONE of this is simple BUT one should know what they were meant to be at birth. I struggled for 38 years trying to live/hide both lives (male and female) and no one will convince me that you can be happy doing so.
     Now as for those of you who spoke of living in a lesbian relationship before realizing you were a "man", I can understand that to a point. However, when I was forced by my family to live as their "daughter" and I had a relationships with females, the women were hetrosexuals. In addition, during the relationships I was the pleaser and not the pleased. Now let me explain and please forgive me for going into personal details but I need to get my point across....I could make love to a woman, but I could NOT allow a woman to make love to me due to the way my body was made (female with a micro penis); therefore I would feel like she was making love to a woman. Am I making sense here? I hope so because I don't know any other way to explain it without going into more graphic details which I DO NOT want to do on these boards. 
     My point is, I have NEVER felt like a lesbian. I have always known I am a male, even though part of my body says different. It took me many years to except the fact that I am NOT "demon possessed" like I have been told. And I have stopped asking God to take my ability to love away from me. For years, I wanted God to take that from me because I felt like if I had to live in this body and no one wanted to love me like this and I could never be a "complete" man then why would he allow me fall in love so easily.
     I have not done anything to start transitioning as of yet. What I am right now is all natural. People see me and call me "sir" everyday. I was born with high levels of testosterone which deepened my voice, I have a lot of facial hair, a male structure, etc. Yet when I would try to meet a woman for a relationship and things were going great, just as soon as I told her about me, she would run as fast as her legs would take her. UNTIL I met sazi....the love of my life right now. So I have to add this to my post even though it doesn't have anything to do with the topic........Listen up out there all of you....there are people out there that do understand us and will love you for who you are. They fall in love with the "inner" person, NOT the "outer"

Sazi, I love you sweetheart with all my heart and soul. And I tip my hat to the keeper of the stars. He sure knew what he was doin'
when he joined these two hearts. I hold everything when I hold you in my arms. I've got all I'll ever need as long as I have you babe!!!

[Dennis]

Yeah Cowboy, genderqueer doesn't make sense to you, or to me in one sense. But trans or intersex doesn't make sense to the majority. Some empathy might be called for here.

People do feel in between and that's their prerogative. I don't myself. But I do think binary gender is a myth. It's not the case that you are one or the other. It's not the case that you are black or white, just society forces people in the latter case to fit into one or the other. People don't say they're a mix of races, even though if you look at US African Americans vs. Africans, most of the US people are clearly a mix. And many of us, trans or not, are a mix, or are somewhere on the continuum of male-----female. Not many of us fit in the extremes.

I don't fit in the "male" extreme, even though I consider myself male. Neither does my friend Will and he's a straight bio male. Neither of us considers ourselves genderqueer, but we're perhaps not close enough to the middle to do so.

I don't agree one "should" know what one was meant to be at birth. It's maybe easier for those of us who tend to one end or the other, but it isn't for those who are in the middle.

I never felt like a lesbian either. I called myself one for years, but that was because I didn't know what words to put to what I was feeling, and I was (am) attracted to women.

If you and I are asking people to accept us as we are, perhaps we could extend the same courtesy to others who are not like us.

Dennis

[kitten]

"Gender Queer" is perhaps a political statement.

Modern feminism points out that the issues of homophobia, transphobia and discrimination against women all spring from the single cause of forcing us into two groups, which by definition implies commonalities unique to each group.

If we are wise enough to accept a spectrum, much as the gay and lesbian community have with their rainbow flag, this does not preclude us from having a male or female identity, if that is how we wish to define ourselves, but prevents the mere generative functions and their associated equipment from dominating our social acceptance and relationships.

Thus your variances, physical, genetic, hormonal, emotional, mental and spiritual can be allowed to specify where you feel most comfortable, and what changes you need to be at peace with yourself.

Other terms i have heard used are "Gender Gifted", "Gender Fluid" and "Gender F***ed", which apparently suit different people more.

That said, you put your finger on the basic query one must make: Is there any determinative Binary?

I have heard a lot about "Brain Sex" lately, and i know that the correct hormones for me make my brain work better, like a well oiled machine, but even so i am uneasy about identifying with a Binary Gender Role, even as i collect appropriate clothing, change my name to fit such a role, and prepare my body to change to an appropriate shape.

So after all this waffle, which i hope clarifies a minor point or two, my conclusion is:

I don't know the answer, and i have heard nothing anywhere to convince me that anybody else does either.

[4years]

... Other terms i have heard used are ... "Gender F***ed" ...

Oh is that why that word is in the wiki, I was wondering!

It would be interesting to see statistics on what the honest gender thought is of a large majority would be.

I'm starting to think that being taught that gender is so clear cut as to be "male" or "female" is the worst damage the public school system has done. Depending on what is actual though that may or may not be; But given the probabilities it seems improbable that our otherwise very varied human condition would have our gender so nice and black and white.

[Leigh]

Business women in a suit and tie.   A  str8 woman with multiple tats and piercings.  Boys with black nails and lipstick.  A dyke with a mowhawk and tats on her scalp.  Women who refuse to shave their legs or underarms.  Men who shave both for the look and feel.  Women who work a male dominated job.  ie: construction.  Jack lemmon, Flip Wilson, Dustin Hoffman.

Anyone who messes with gender or presentation could be considered gender queer.  I believe its all about how you see yourself regardless of what *they* think or say.  If you can't be yourself then who are you?

Leigh