Where are we getting our ideas of an acceptably "masculine" body?

[blink]

blink,

Thank you so very much for the link to My Body Gallery.  Even with my top surgery scars, I don't think I am looking too bad!  haha

Seriously, though, unless you go on a beach or date men, you don't really see too many male chests.  It was great to see how very diverse male chests are.  I really had no idea, because, as you say, I only see models or the guys that fits society's definition of a "good chest" (because they have their shirts off).

Thanks again!

You're welcome. Thrilled to hear it was helpful. This is the reason I posted the thread, because I was certain some guys don't have much opportunity to learn that the CK model is an idealized image far from the average man. That some of us may be agonizing and sweating (metaphorically and literally) over characteristics that, upon closer examination, aren't so much "still feminine" as "common in men" e.g. love handles or less than bodybuilderesque legs.

Factor in the bronzer, makeup (yes, makeup), trick lighting, and photoshop, and you have a bulls--- standard to be holding most of the population up to. Even the models don't look really look like that. While on the subject of BS, get a load of this.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew-dixon/weight-loss-secrets_b_3643898.html

I think the point here isn't whether it's possible to achieve the body of one's dreams if one works hard enough/spends enough money, but WHY, beyond a certain point, we believe that we have to.  It's a sad truth that looks are overvalued in this society, and there's not much we can do to change that, but we can still decide for ourselves whether to buy in to that set of values. 

Genetics, beyond the X and Y chromosomes, play a huge role in this, and that is something we can't control. The bodies we idealize not only have the "right" genetics and a lot of very hard work behind them, they also have (in the case of models and the like), for the most part, a lot of help from surgery -- liposuction at the very least.

For me, I love working out a few hours a week, and I'm happy with the results I'm getting, but, jeez -- there's other stuff I want to do with my life that will nurture and develop the inner me. I'd rather put more of my time into becoming a better person, and that's a lot more than just my physical appearance. (Not to mention, um, spending time having fun... )

It's easy to have one's priorities seriously messed up by this culture.

And this. You nailed it. I'm not looking to discourage anyone. No one here is. What I am doing is encouraging everyone to question what is really important to them and why. And, for those who decide getting ultra buff is a priority in their life, to watch out for things spinning out of control into an unhealthy obsession, because it happens.

[Ayden]

^ I think blink and Tysilio hit on what I was trying to say. I'm so scatterbrained today. It's been a very long week.

[ChrisRokk]

Oh hey I found that link if it helps improve anyone's self esteem.

http://www.boredpanda.com/athlete-body-types-comparison-howard-schatz/

[Satyrane]

So it seems to me (correct me if I'm misunderstanding the flow of this conversation) that the crux of this issue is that we are pursuing an idealized image of manhood; understandable seeing as where are starting point is but potentially self-esteem destroying due to a variety of limitations. A solution I have discovered to this problem for myself is to realize there are a plethora of ways to be a man, something that even are cisgender counterparts can be woefully unaware of.

In the household I grew up in, I was raised to believe that the most important virtue is the pursuit of knowledge (a belief I still hold dear). As a result, the men I saw as role models where scrawny intellectuals such as Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell. In my head, the image of the idealized man was based upon his mind and not his muscle. Manhood in the image of scholar is only one of many other archetypes we as people can strive for. Not all of us can or want to fit a single image so we must encourage the freedom to diversify and find one's own niche.

Despite my differing ideals and my ineptitude at picking up social ques, I too was still effected by the constant pressure to conforming to a standard of wo/manhood. Of course, dysphoria exacerbates the problem and warps perspective. I always knew I wanted the changes testosterone would bring but I was stricken with the fear that it would turn my socially undervalued but attractive form into something absolutely hideous. As part of my mental preparation for acquiring T, I have learned to enjoy my form no matter how it changes. Genetics has dealt me a certain hand that I must play to my advantage (only a fraction of which I know since I was adopted). Accepting your body, especially when you feel wrong in your skin as we trans folk often do, is a difficult thing to do. It something that takes years of practice but I have found it quiet liberating. I have grown extremely happy with the chubby stomach I have developed. I also enjoy my feminine features of wide hips, thunder thighs, and prominent buttock (of course, being on the genderqueer side of the equation probably contributes to this acceptance).

My solutions and discoveries to the issue of the idealized man may not work for everyone but I hope it works for someone. My philosophy: Explore alternate ways of being, and learn to love and let go.

[Tysilio]

In the household I grew up in, I was raised to believe that the most important virtue is the pursuit of knowledge (a belief I still hold dear). As a result, the men I saw as role models where scrawny intellectuals such as Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell. In my head, the image of the idealized man was based upon his mind and not his muscle.

I completely relate to this -- the "life of the mind" was valued above all in my family. Of course, it's also true that when I was eight or nine, I used to spend a lot of time looking at those ads in the back of comic books for devices that would give you muscles, so the bully wouldn't kick sand in your face... damn, I wanted muscles.   I still do, but at sixty-ish, I'll take what I can get.

My philosophy: Explore alternate ways of being, and learn to love and let go.

Easier said than done, but it's worth trying...

[Arch]

Considering that I've always been sexually attracted to less-than-physically-ideal men, I don't think I am overly hung up over how unmasculine my body is.

I wish I had somewhat broader shoulders and narrower hips, but I don't think about 'em much.

I do, however, hate my nipples because I've never seen a single guy (who wasn't trans) with nipples like mine. I want to get them reduced at some point.

And I am embarrassed about my hands because they are small. My best friend has small hands, and mine are nearly the same size. When I griped about my small, girly hands, he piped up, "I have small hands. Let's compare."

In other words, he, a cis guy, was just as aware of his hands as I was of mine because it's extremely rare for a cis guy to have such small hands. I really don't think that it has anything to do with the "ideal" male hands. It has to do with what is overwhelmingly typical.

[Ayden]

Considering that I've always been sexually attracted to less-than-physically-ideal men, I don't think I am overly hung up over how unmasculine my body is.

I wish I had somewhat broader shoulders and narrower hips, but I don't think about 'em much.

I do, however, hate my nipples because I've never seen a single guy (who wasn't trans) with nipples like mine. I want to get them reduced at some point.

And I am embarrassed about my hands because they are small. My best friend has small hands, and mine are nearly the same size. When I griped about my small, girly hands, he piped up, "I have small hands. Let's compare."

In other words, he, a cis guy, was just as aware of his hands as I was of mine because it's extremely rare for a cis guy to have such small hands. I really don't think that it has anything to do with the "ideal" male hands. It has to do with what is overwhelmingly typical.

A very good friend of mine is bio male piano piano player and the size of his hands always bothers him. He has smaller hands than me and we often joke that he should have taken my instrument of choice, the guitar. But my hands are too small to even be good at that. My best friend who is a bio female is an artist and she has rough man hands. What I wouldn't give to trade. You're not alone there, man.

[blink]

Oh hey I found that link if it helps improve anyone's self esteem.

http://www.boredpanda.com/athlete-body-types-comparison-howard-schatz/

Thanks for posting that, it's interesting. It shows how specialized the human body can become, and how different strong and/or healthy can look.
Take away the bronzer/body oil/whatever and the professional lighting, put them in an everyday setting and for most of them I would not see them and think, "Hey, that guy must be one of the world's finest athletes." But they are.

So it seems to me (correct me if I'm misunderstanding the flow of this conversation) that the crux of this issue is that we are pursuing an idealized image of manhood; understandable seeing as where are starting point is but potentially self-esteem destroying due to a variety of limitations. A solution I have discovered to this problem for myself is to realize there are a plethora of ways to be a man, something that even are cisgender counterparts can be woefully unaware of.

In the household I grew up in, I was raised to believe that the most important virtue is the pursuit of knowledge (a belief I still hold dear). As a result, the men I saw as role models where scrawny intellectuals such as Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell. In my head, the image of the idealized man was based upon his mind and not his muscle. Manhood in the image of scholar is only one of many other archetypes we as people can strive for. Not all of us can or want to fit a single image so we must encourage the freedom to diversify and find one's own niche.

Yeah, you have the crux right. Idealized media images screw badly with cis people's heads, stack the effects of dysphoria on that, most likely provide even less opportunity than cis counterparts to see enough "average" bodies for comparison to the ideal, and you have a recipe for hardcore body image problems.

Unfortunately several components of my "ideal" are physical things I can do little to nothing to change. We could start a "I wish I had bigger, manlier hands" club here. I'm doing everything I'm reasonably able to do to change my hands and it makes some difference. And it helps to know there are cis guys in the same boat. But the bottom line is I may never look at my hands and NOT have that moment of, "WTF, this is what my hands look like?"

Further partial remedy ideas:
-Take pride in the changes I have made, even if they are small I've worked hard for them. That's respectable in itself.
-Try to focus more on things I have more control over.
- Keep eyes open for guys with similar issues that I respect for other things, to further shift priority away from crap I can't change. "Yep that guy has tiny hands, but he is brilliant at ____ so who gives a crap."
- Analyse why I value that trait so much. Is it 100% just a matter of it being male typical, or is there another factor present, possibly one I have some control over? Maybe a physical trait represents something.

I'll take a crack at it right here. To me muscular, rough hands imply physical strength, capability, and hard work. I know a big chunk of my problem is that bigger hands are more typical for males, but I also value those implied aspects. And those are things I not only have some control over, but I'm already making progress on. Can't change my bone structure but I am adding muscle and calluses. As for capability I know full well that one can have heaps of that without big hands, and vice-versa, I've known some incompetent people with big hands.

[Arch]

As a trans man, I actually think that I have a MORE realistic and healthy view of my atypical body than most cis people have of their bodies. Growing up and becoming an adult, I didn't identify with all of the idealized female bodies in the media, so those images didn't have much cumulative effect on my view of my body. But my body obviously didn't fit into the typical male box, either--I had T&A and the whole nine yards--so I didn't go around comparing my teenage and young adult body with the bodies of men in movies and ads.

Once I transitioned and stopped worrying about being seen as male, the body obsession started to fade. When I see an attractive male body, I think, "Pretty" or "Might be fun to play with that" and not "I wish I had that body."

I'm not saying that I have no dysphoria about my body; as I said, I hate my nipples (should be fixable with surgery someday) and am embarrassed about my hands, but I don't tend to think about the other stuff. I used to do it more pretransition, but that's because I wasn't seen as male. Now that I am, I have experienced much less obsessing over morphology and more about bottom surgery.

Maybe my situation is unique, a function of being gay and transitioning late. And maybe I'll start obsessing about the other stuff once my bottom surgeries are out of the way. Who knows?

[aleon515]

Ayden, I love this post! I think being happy how you are is a wonderful thing, and a much abused concept. If you WANT to and CAN, that's one thing, but it's not something I would strive for even if I could.


--Jay

I'm with those who disagree. We all can't be CK models. Lets take away genetics, injuries, disabilities, varying body types, income and the million other variables. So  lets say we are just looking at diet and exercise. Eat a well balanced meal and exercise and work for it and you can bulk up like Arnold when he was Mr. Universe? No, they can't. Because those variables really do matter. What's wrong with eating well and getting moderate exercise or (forbid the thought) being happy with who you are?

[ChrisRokk]

I'm not saying that I have no dysphoria about my body; as I said, I hate my nipples (should be fixable with surgery someday) and am embarrassed about my hands, but I don't tend to think about the other stuff.

I have nipple issues as well.  But it's actually my dad's fault because he has dinnerplate nipples.  So if it's nipple size that's your hang up, I know of at least one cis man with massive nipples.  There are probably many more who don't let them see the light of day.

[Arch]

I have nipple issues as well.  But it's actually my dad's fault because he has dinnerplate nipples.  So if it's nipple size that's your hang up, I know of at least one cis man with massive nipples.  There are probably many more who don't let them see the light of day.

Are you talking about the actual nipples, not just the areolas? I've seen big areolas on a number of guys, but not those made-for-suckling-an-infant nipples that I find so disconcerting. I expect that a few men with unusual chromosomes are running around with their shirts on 24/7 because they have exactly those nipples, but of course I haven't seen such men.

[ChrisRokk]

Are you talking about the actual nipples, not just the areolas? I've seen big areolas on a number of guys, but not those made-for-suckling-an-infant nipples that I find so disconcerting. I expect that a few men with unusual chromosomes are running around with their shirts on 24/7 because they have exactly those nipples, but of course I haven't seen such men.

Sorry, I meant areolas.  But his nipples are definitely on the big side as well.

[Bombadil]

This has been great to read. The post about the legs surprised me a bit. I just don't have an image for "male legs". I don't know, I've hung around with a lot of guys and most of them don't have the idea body, whatever that is. I really liked the link of the athletes, that totally blew some stereotypes for me. 

Mostly I wish I was bigger. Taller body, bigger hands, etc. But I'm not and honestly everyone has things they wish to change about their bodies. And often time, the more perfect that person may seem from the outside, the more insecure they are about their looks. I want to be in shape, because I like being physically fit. I've always been a physical guy. But I want that feeling of strength and energy more than I want to have the perfect legs or abs or whatever.

I want to look in the mirror and see a guy and that's getting there but I don't want to be obsessing about how I look. The reason I'm transitioning is so I can actually accept myself. Most of my life I haven't cared about my looks at all, because to care was just too painful with my female body. Now I can care. I can actually look in the mirror and smile at myself, and that's an amazing gift that for most of my life I didn't think I'd have. I've spent 40-odd years in the wrong body. I am going to make damn sure to celebrate the body I have now instead of worrying about an ideal or my hands or my lack of hair or my shortness.

I know it sucks to be born in the wrong body, but do you realize how lucky we are? We are here at Susan's because we believe we actually have the change to do something about it.

[blink]

Mostly I wish I was bigger. Taller body, bigger hands, etc. But I'm not and honestly everyone has things they wish to change about their bodies. And often time, the more perfect that person may seem from the outside, the more insecure they are about their looks. I want to be in shape, because I like being physically fit. I've always been a physical guy. But I want that feeling of strength and energy more than I want to have the perfect legs or abs or whatever.

I want to look in the mirror and see a guy and that's getting there but I don't want to be obsessing about how I look. The reason I'm transitioning is so I can actually accept myself. Most of my life I haven't cared about my looks at all, because to care was just too painful with my female body. Now I can care. I can actually look in the mirror and smile at myself, and that's an amazing gift that for most of my life I didn't think I'd have. I've spent 40-odd years in the wrong body. I am going to make damn sure to celebrate the body I have now instead of worrying about an ideal or my hands or my lack of hair or my shortness.

That is a great attitude to have.

Putting in the effort for physical changes one wants is great. So is confidence. One thing I've learned from bodybuilder forums, confidence doesn't necessarily come with looks.