Where are we getting our ideas of an acceptably "masculine" body?

[blink]

And how realistic is it? This is important. Been thinking on this for awhile now, but how's this for underscoring the point:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,175416.msg1544078.html#msg1544078
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,175416.msg1544262.html#msg1544262

The second guy in Kreutzfidel's pic is a powerlifter, so that should give you an idea of what goes into developing masculine legs.

The reality is, most cis men are not powerlifters or bodybuilders. Most cis men don't have legs that look like that. So where are we getting our mental images of an adequately "male-looking" body from? Underwear models, Calvin Klein ads, TV/Movie stars? Those guys have those jobs for a reason: they are uncommonly good-looking according to societal standards. Yet those are the guys we've most likely seen without shirts on.

Not saying that aiming high is a bad thing. But if we're aiming high we ought to be aware of that to avoid unrealistically poor self image.

Have a look at this. Odds are at least most of the men on here are cis.
http://mybodygalleryformen.com/index.html

A website like that is virtually guaranteed to be skewed. People who are proud of how their body looks are more likely to post than people who are ashamed or embarrassed. And yet, clicking "random image" over and over, I'm mostly seeing a lot of chunky dudes. Some extremely skinny guys. Short guys. Hourglass-shaped guys. A lot of guys with arms that are downright disappointing compared to my personal concept of "manly arms". Of course there's the obvious guys who work out a lot and want to show off the results.

Sex dysphoria is a heavy thing to carry without the extra baggage of body image issues. I've read enough threads on bodybuilder forums to know that this kind of thinking can screw with ANYONE. There are huge, beefed up guys out there - guys many of us would envy -  thinking they are too "small" or fretting over their "girly hands" or "wide hips". I s--- you not. Point being, be careful. If this body image stuff really gets a grip on you, no amount of change and progress will seem like enough.

Edit to include a link from the second page:  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew-dixon/weight-loss-secrets_b_3643898.html
The CK models themselves don't even look like that when they roll out of bed in the morning. People are starting to catch on just how airbrushed and full of BS a lot of female media images are, but public knowledge is lagging behind that the same goes for men.

[Tysilio]

This is a really important thing to bring up -- thank you. We're so conditioned to want the unattainable, and to feel like we're worthless if we don't conform to the completely unrealistic standards of good looks that this culture imposes on us. I probably have it a bit easier than some around this, just because I'm older and don't expect to look like a 30-year-old -- but I still fret about my weight and my big ass, even though I pass just fine with the shape I have.

Oddly (or perhaps not), I find that I'm a lot more invested in my appearance now that I'm presenting as male than I ever was when I presented as more or less female: I've lost a lot of weight, I'm working out regularly, and I find I'm spending a lot of time on men's fashion websites. These all feel like very positive things, and I love the progress I've made -- but it's been less than a year, and I worry about whether I'll ever be satisfied with the results of all this work.

It's funny you should bring this up just now, actually, as I've been making a point lately of paying attention to men's body shapes, and noticing that a fair number of them are shaped pretty much like me. That body gallery site is well worth looking at, even though there are almost no pictures of guys my age.

[Edge]

I get my ideas of an acceptably masculine body from the people I see. True, how I want to look is also based on, well, what I want, but that's normal for cis people, so it makes sense that it would also be normal for me.
I understand the reasons for saying that some cis men have the some of the physical traits that bother us, but I find it usually doesn't help. It doesn't make the dysphoria better, it doesn't make me any more comfortable with my body, and it doesn't stop people from continuously misgendering me. Maybe it's because I still can't pass and I'm losing hope that I ever will, but it usually sounds hollow to me. Back when my voice was ridiculously high, someone tried to reassure me that some men have high voices. My ears work fine and had never heard a cis guy's voice be that high. My boyfriend once tried to help me feel better about my hips by telling me that some men have wide hips too, but I have trouble believing him because he had earlier expressed disbelief that I would ever be shaped like a guy while looking at my waist and hips.
Many I'll feel different if I ever start passing and the traits like hips, waist, butt, etc don't immediately cause almost everyone to misgender me, but I doubt that will ever happen.

[AeroZeppelin92]

I'm sorry but I'm gonna have to disagree with this thread. Yes, people use the terms "masculine" and "muscular" interchangeably and that can cause some confusion, but it is clear that we are discussing muscular bodies. You cannot deny that a muscular body is viewed as masculine. Think of female bodybuilders. They get called all sorts of rude things and people call them "gross" because they look "too manly".  If you want an undeniably masculine figure, putting on muscle is the answer.  You don't have to have 6% bodyfat and washboard abs to look masculine, but putting on muscle will definitely make you appear more masculine.

This is a really important thing to bring up -- thank you. We're so conditioned to want the unattainable, and to feel like we're worthless if we don't conform to the completely unrealistic standards of good looks that this culture imposes on us.

It is NOT unattainable. You CAN have the body of that Calvin Klein underwear model. You CAN lose weight. But you have to do the work! You are not worthless, no matter your body type/ shape. But if you want  a certain body type, whether it's muscular, masculine, or whatever, you have to do the work. And I repeat it is NOT impossible. Never think it is. It doesn't matter if you're overweight or a skeleton. If you think carrying a little extra bodyfat is perpetuating a feminine figure, ie. love handles (which I have too and slowly but surely working them off) then you have to work them off.

Look at this guy. He is a great role model. He is constantly trying to be motivational to other transguys and he keeps it real. It took him 5-6 years to build his body, but the fact is HE DID IT.

[Edge]

All the working out in the world can't change bone structure.

[blink]

Perhaps I didn't convey my point clearly. I'm not playing the gender theory word politics game here. It's not about calling it masculine or muscular. And it's certainly nothing against anyone working for a body they genuinely want. It's about some guys apparently thinking they still look feminine, because they don't embody the masculine ideal that most cis men fall considerably short of. If all someone really wants is to "look like a man" and they think that necessitates Calvin Klein model, that is an unrealistic standard.

It is NOT unattainable. You CAN have the body of that Calvin Klein underwear model. You CAN lose weight. But you have to do the work! You are not worthless, no matter your body type/ shape. But if you want  a certain body type, whether it's muscular, masculine, or whatever, you have to do the work. And I repeat it is NOT impossible. Never think it is. It doesn't matter if you're overweight or a skeleton. If you think carrying a little extra bodyfat is perpetuating a feminine figure, ie. love handles (which I have too and slowly but surely working them off) then you have to work them off.

I disagree with this line of thinking. If you THINK something looks feminine, don't stop to question whether that's actually the case, just work harder? Love handles are more common in men! More power to you if you don't like them and choose to work them off, but let's differentiate between "trying to not look feminine" and "already looks like a man, now chasing masculine ideal".

As I said, there is nothing wrong with aiming high, but one should be aware that's what it is. And at some point, at least some of us are going to run up on something that won't be solved by more weight lifting and/or fat loss.

http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/pictures_pics_photo_body_rate_image_performance/3year_transformation_ftm_powerlifter_28_55_160_lbs

This is one of the guys from Kreuzfidel's post. Look at how hugely buff this guy is, and then read the thread. He's still worried about his hips. I'm willing to bet his shoulder-to-hip and waist-to-hip ratios are completely within male ranges. The kind of body issues many of us grapple with are not necessarily going to be 100% solved with enough working out. It's more complex than that. That is the point of my thread. I'm questioning how many of us are operating on an unrealistic concept of what most men look like, and conclude from that, that they look too feminine, or not like a man, or however you want to put it.

[AeroZeppelin92]

I think cismen, transmen, everyone has their own body image issues. Everyone has their own idea of what's attractive and what they think people should look like, and yes, it's heavily influenced by media. But what I don't want to do is discourage anyone

[Nygeel]

Not everybody is capable of getting a muscular body with low fat. In order to obtain that sort of figure you need to be physically able bodied, have a good income, and enough time to work out. There are people who have mental exhaustion and feel too drained to do anything resembling working out. If you work a lot to just get by you might only think about sleep as soon as you get off. Other people might have a small food budget or rely on SNAP (food stamps) which can't exactly pay for healthy food.

Plus there's a bit of knowledge on how to mix together diet and exercise properly to get that sort of physique. The guy whose picture was posted had said he was a competative athlete his whole life, got out of shape for a few months, then started lifting again. That sort of puts him at an advantage to get into a muscular body (attitude, and previously being in shape).

[AeroZeppelin92]

As you said, attitude. If you have the right attitude you can do it. Sure there are people who have psychical disabilities that restrict them or are barely getting by on their income. But you know what? There's a guy that goes to the same gym as me with a prosthetic leg. And he is ripped. Not having an athletic backround isn't much of a reason anymore either, when there's literally tons of free resources on the internet, for every knowledge level. I don't deny that eating healthy is expensive, but there's even PLENTY of YouTube videos about how to grocery shop for fitness on a budget. The point I'm making is people always want to find a reason why they can't. Unless you are severely disabled, if you have the right attitude, you can.

[Arch]

It is NOT unattainable. You CAN have the body of that Calvin Klein underwear model. You CAN lose weight. But you have to do the work! You are not worthless, no matter your body type/ shape. But if you want  a certain body type, whether it's muscular, masculine, or whatever, you have to do the work. And I repeat it is NOT impossible.

Sorry to disagree with you, but it's impossible for many people, even cis people, too look like a CK underwear model. My father never would have made it--he has the wrong body type. One of my two best cis friends does as well, and the other friend was fit in his twenties but was probably too damned short.

And it's certainly impossible for me. If I'd been a regular guy working at my old job, I probably wouldn't have gotten the injuries that make it impossible for me to lift weights or do anything even remotely athletic with my hands. I can't even hold a badminton racquet. In fact, I have to be careful about how much I even use a pen or a marker. My upper body will never be what it could have been if I'd been born "right."

With this latest foot injury, I can't even work my lower body anymore, and with my slower metabolism, I'm packing on the pounds. I wasn't doing too badly until middle age really hit me. But even when my foot was in decent shape, I had to work pretty hard just to not be fat. The T certainly helped, but I'm on a lower dose now.

Not to mention that even in top shape, I just have the wrong body. I'm built like my dad, and no amount of working out--even if I could do it--is going to turn me into an underwear model.

I am luckier than many trans guys. My shoulders aren't particularly narrow, my hips aren't extremely wide, and I'm bulky enough to wear men's small shirts. I'm big enough and proportionate enough to wear standard sizes in pants and shoes as well, as long as I choose my trousers wisely. I've seen some trans guys who aren't nearly as fortunate.

BTW, I am not considered severely disabled. I just have a chronic injury that bars me from most physical activities. At least, that was before; now I have an additional injury that may or may not be chronic. My point is that even a small chronic injury can be extremely debilitating--and if you have the wrong body to be a skinny underwear model, there ain't much you can do about that.

[Nygeel]

As you said, attitude. If you have the right attitude you can do it. Sure there are people who have psychical disabilities that restrict them or are barely getting by on their income. But you know what? There's a guy that goes to the same gym as me with a prosthetic leg. And he is ripped. Not having an athletic backround isn't much of a reason anymore either, when there's literally tons of free resources on the internet, for every knowledge level. I don't deny that eating healthy is expensive, but there's even PLENTY of YouTube videos about how to grocery shop for fitness on a budget. The point I'm making is people always want to find a reason why they can't. Unless you are severely disabled, if you have the right attitude, you can.

Great for the guy who has a prosthetic leg, he also has a gym membership. Not everybody has access to the internet. There are things beyond control that limits people.

[Bimmer Guy]

blink,

Thank you so very much for the link to My Body Gallery.  Even with my top surgery scars, I don't think I am looking too bad!  haha

Seriously, though, unless you go on a beach or date men, you don't really see too many male chests.  It was great to see how very diverse male chests are.  I really had no idea, because, as you say, I only see models or the guys that fits society's definition of a "good chest" (because they have their shirts off).

Thanks again!

[aleon515]

I don't necessarily buy into the super masculine body thing. All guys have different bodies which you can see if you look at cis males for awhile (discretely of course). I think men and women all suffer from that bodies need to be perfect from watching TV, seeing ads, etc. Yes there are people who build up their bodies thru time and training. But building up a FAAB has limitations as well, and I have heard of many older guys getting tendonitis and so on from lifting too heavy weights. I think healthy eating and exercise are all good, but there are extremes out there that not all of us would pursue for lots of reasons.

I agree with Brett, heck I had a smaller chest pre-top surgery than some cis guys I see. LOL.

--Jay

[Tysilio]

I think men and women all suffer from that bodies need to be perfect from watching TV, seeing ads, etc.

This.

I think the point here isn't whether it's possible to achieve the body of one's dreams if one works hard enough/spends enough money, but WHY, beyond a certain point, we believe that we have to.  It's a sad truth that looks are overvalued in this society, and there's not much we can do to change that, but we can still decide for ourselves whether to buy in to that set of values. 

Genetics, beyond the X and Y chromosomes, play a huge role in this, and that is something we can't control. The bodies we idealize not only have the "right" genetics and a lot of very hard work behind them, they also have (in the case of models and the like), for the most part, a lot of help from surgery -- liposuction at the very least.

For me, I love working out a few hours a week, and I'm happy with the results I'm getting, but, jeez -- there's other stuff I want to do with my life that will nurture and develop the inner me. I'd rather put more of my time into becoming a better person, and that's a lot more than just my physical appearance. (Not to mention, um, spending time having fun... )

It's easy to have one's priorities seriously messed up by this culture.

[Ayden]

I'm with those who disagree. We all can't be CK models. Lets take away genetics, injuries, disabilities, varying body types, income and the million other variables. So  lets say we are just looking at diet and exercise. Eat a well balanced meal and exercise and work for it and you can bulk up like Arnold when he was Mr. Universe? No, they can't. Because those variables really do matter. What's wrong with eating well and getting moderate exercise or (forbid the thought) being happy with who you are?

I'm all for people being healthy, and I have seen unhealthy weights and habits nearly kill or kill a lot people in my family. I watch what I eat and I exercise 60-75 minutes 4-6 times a week. I'm 5'7 and 176. I'd like to get a little more fit and lose a little more weight, sure. My husband is 5'11 and 160. He works out about the same I do. He's a smaller guy naturally. His build is just small and I'm stocky.

If I wanted to get down to 155, I would need to cut out a lot of my diet, which is difficult living in a place that serves bowls of rice at every meal. If I managed that, by never going out to eat or never having that beer at a work function, I would still need to work out 2-3 times more than I do. That means that while being married, working, trying to get published, having a social life and leisure time I would still need to find a way to fit in 2.5 to 3 hours of exercise a day? Not to mention I can't go to a gym here.  So when do I sleep? If I tried to get to Mr. Universe levels, I can say bye bye to everything that makes me happy and all the things I enjoy. I've known gym rats and bodybuilders. Nice guys for the most part, but one tiny little itty bitty thing and it destroys their body image. It's not healthy to get so obsessed with trying to gain "perfection" when A) most guys don't have ripped abs and 22inch biceps, and B) a person can be so thrown off by a single percentage of fat that they go into suicidal thoughts.

What I'm trying to get to is this: I want to enjoy my life. I don't look like a CK model. Believe it or not, I am an incredibly happy person. Reality is more men look like me than look like a sculpture. Between the "perfect" male body and enjoying my life while being healthy, I'd take the latter any day and twice on Sundays.

Telling a man that he can look like a model if we just get over it and do the work is the same as telling a woman she can be a runway model if she just sticks to the 500 calories a day. It's unrealistic and unhealthy.

[ChrisRokk]

I'm loving the pictures of the dudes on the original link. Thanks, blink!

I wish I were near a computer right now. I saw a neat photo series of all different kinds of professional athletes and what they look like in their underwear. Depending on the sport, their bodies look vastly different. So there isn't really even one way to have a very fit body.

[Jeatyn]

While I agree that obsessing over ones image is not a healthy thing to do; I will also say that difficult is not the same as impossible.

If some people do want to put in the effort to achieve a certain look they feel is desirable then good for them, people from all kinds of backgrounds and situations have and will continue to achieve high levels of athletic performance.

Most people don't, this is true; but I do firmly believe in most cases it's not because they can't, it's because they don't want to. I don't want my body to look like "most peoples" - I want to be fit and healthy, not to body builder standards but above the "average" - it's gonna take me a lot of work to get there but I'm making it happen slowly but surely. This doesn't mean that my entire self image is skewed and I'm being influenced by the media. I don't give a crap about the media or society, it's my own wants and desires that drive me. If anything I'd say I get more pressure from the other side of the fence "you look fine, a piece of cake won't kill you" - "Come down the pub for a few pints with us instead of going home to work out" "eating a salad? are you crazy? they sell burgers here you know" etc etc etc. and of course from the people who are less supportive "girls don't tend to gain much muscle why do you even bother?" sort of comments. All I hear from all around me is YOU CAN'T, YOU CAN'T YOU CAN'T. Wrong, maybe you can't, but I can and I will.

Wanting a fit body (whatever that means to you) is different from REALLY wanting one in a way that drives you to give up certain things in order to achieve that goal (certain types of food, sleep, leisure activities, free time, whatever)

If doing all the work it takes to get a fit body seems unrealistic to you because you don't feel you could put in that level of commitment and give up a whole bunch of stuff to make room for it, that's also fine. (Using a general version of you here, not aiming at anyone specifically)  I just feel that declaring certain things "impossible and unrealistic" can be just as damaging to a persons body confidence as insisting that everyone needs to look like an underwear model.

[Ayden]

I certainly agree with a lot of what you say, Jeatyn. I went from 229 pounds to where I am today and it's taken time and effort and I've made serious overhauls to my life to do so. I suppose the point that I was going for at least is that being healthy and fit is different depending on your body, and trying to look like a playgirl model is not a goal a lot of people can meet. My build is stocky like most of the men in my family and with my genetics I will never be super slim. I have muscle and I'm working on building it up, but without hours of work a day I won't ever get to behemoth proportions and it would be unhealthy to try for it. It's like my husband. He's a slim man. No matter how hard he bulks up or works out he's always going to be smaller. His parents are 5'4 and 5 foot. His height is already amazing. But he looks at pro wrestlers and he has serious body issues. Just like when I went from 145 to 119 because I thought if I was skinny enough I could be happy.

Being healthy is absolutely a good thing and I agree that people make unhealthy choices in come regards because of a variety of circumstances and choices. But posting a picture of one guy who is super buff and saying "you can all look like that" isn't realistic. That is what fuels body imagine issues. As trans* folks I think we have enough to contend without telling eachother that we need to meet a goal that most people can't. If everyone could we would have a lot more super models. But not everyone can do that.

I'll use a non-exercise example. Billy Joel is an amazing piano player, and he absolutely worked hard for what he had. But, he was born with perfect pitch ears. Turns out that makes it easier to be a professional piano player. Or tiger woods with his perfect eyes. If I have Tiger my husbands eyes, it wouldn't matter how hard he trained. He could train for 50 years and never even be a decent golfer. That's the reality.

I would argue that popular media and socially accepted ideas of body types are real and they do affect everyone, even if it's only subconscious. In the Baroque period it was considered the height of feminine beauty to be full figured and busty. In Ancient Greece small pensises were more desirable. These ideas of beauty do affect. I would be happy with my body in America. I live in Asia where my husband who has a 28 inch waist is considered fat and has been told so by students and faculty he works with. We aren't Asian, but the standards of beauty do affect us.

Being healthy and fit are great goals that I work for and I have for almost three years. But I can't be that guy in the post above. That's what I was saying.

[Nygeel]

I'd argue that being muscular without much fat doesn't mean you're healthy (mentally or ohysically).

[Jeatyn]

It's all about finding a balance and having a healthy attitude towards life.

"I must do this, this this and this to conform to what the media and society says I should!" - not good

"I would really like to do this or accomplish this but so many people tell me it's impossible or unrealistic....oh well.....I might as well not bother" - also not good