Taking a look around...

[NathanielM]

Uhm so Hi,

I've been lurking around here for a while now but I always feel as if I don't realle have the right to come here.

The story is that when I'm alone, in my own happy cocoon I feel simply a guy. I'm transitioning and very much a fan of what T has done with me until now. I'm also looking forward to more changes and topsurgery. I'm not getting bottomsurgery and don't feel any need for it either. I don't really care much about genitals, mine or anyone elses. I do pack with an stp because I think it's convenient to be able to p standing up, but that's about half the time, when I feel like it.

However once I leave my own little world I'm often confronted with the fact that apparently my way of identifying as a guy isn't 'right'. I haven't changed my behaviour to fit male stereotypes and I feel that it would make me sad to have to fit that story. I'm growing out my hair, I like more alternative clothes that get labeled as 'feminine' by my peers. I have a pretty broad group of transgender mates and often they suggest I'm more non-binary than ftm.

The problem is, I do feel more comfortable with other non-binary identified people because they seem to be more accepting that I identify as a guy even though I might not fit the box 'DUDE' society has built. I often get comments (meant well mostly) about not being very masculine, or that something I do won't help me pass, or that I still have a very feminine energy...

And despite trying to do me and be strong in that all these comments and suggestions do get me doubting that maybe I shouldn't identify as simply a guy. Maybe I should be non-binary? Well, maybe I am but I don't know it yet? But at the same time I don't understand why I can't be a guy and crochet, be feminine, dress a little frilly, shake hand softly, call people darling...

I guess I'm just sort of lost and I don't really get society at the moment so I was wondering if I could hang out here for a while? It seems like things make more sense in here.
Nathan

[JulieBlair]

Hi Nathan,
It is  more than fine to accept that you combine the male and female into something unique to yourself.  Once you accept that your gender identity is just that, yours and yours alone,  then you can choose to express your gender without inhibiting either side of your personality and all of who you truly are.  It is liberating, real, and absolutely legitimate.

You are neither strange nor confused.   You are exactly as you are supposed to be and that is both okay and beautiful. 
Fair Winds,
Julie

[Taka]

well, it's not our thing to throw out people for something as unimportant as not being like everybody else...
so you're definitely welcome to stay and interact with us.

i personally don't see why you can't be a guy even if you're kind of "feminine".
but it seems most binary identified people don't get how unnatural some gender stereotypes are.

play around in here for a while. maybe you'll find new answers, maybe not.
but that isn't important. life is a journey, not a goal. the only goal we'll ever reach on the end of this journey is death,
so hurrying too much is pointless.
make the journey more important, and come here to relax whenever you feel like it.

[Pikachu]

I can relate to the general sentiment of your post. I, personally, feel like a girl and identify as such, but it seems like I've always got to fit some arbitrary standard for other people to think of me that way. I just don't get it... I don't really think I'm non-binary. It always really irritates me when people try to convince me I am, the same way it irritates me when cis people don't believe I'm trans, but I still like this place the best out of all the sub-forums. I feel like I actually learn things here, and people have interesting discussions, and everyone's different. In this section, there's not this undercurrent of pressure to fit a narrative like I feel there is in the MTF section.

[Edge]

Gender identity is not the same as gender roles.

But at the same time I don't understand why I can't be a guy and crochet, be feminine, dress a little frilly, shake hand softly, call people darling...

There is absolutely no reason.

Warning: the following is from the point of view of a metalhead who thinks gender roles are on the same level as creationism.
I've seen plenty of guys with long hair (myself included) who are no less men or masculine than men with short hair and I don't understand why people would think otherwise. Especially since many metalheads have long hair and that's a pretty masculine culture. (I think? I never really understood what "masculine" and "feminine" are supposed to be.) I've met men who wear skirts and I wish I could wear skirts too without people calling it effeminate or making it even more likely that they'll misgender me. I don't see those guys as any less men or masculine than any other men and I don't understand why other people do. I've met men who dress a little frilly (hey, just look at visual kei in Japan) and I've met men who wish they could dress a little frilly, but don't want to be stared at. They don't suddenly stop being men. I sew and I know some other guys who sew. Why? Because it's a practical skill to have especially for costumes. I've met men with gentler handshakes because they just happen to be gentler people. They don't stop being men and, from what I understand, gentler men are preferred. And, yes, they are still men same as more aggressive women are still women.

In short, if you feel you are non-binary because YOU feel you are non-binary, then maybe that's something to explore. If you think you might be non-binary because other people are telling you to conform to illogical and arbitrary "rules" to be a man, then tell them they can't be the gender they are because of some ridiculous, random thing (like their opinion of seafood or something) and see how they like it. Er... Forget that last one. That's just what I would do.

[JulieBlair]

Warning: the following is from the point of view of a metalhead who thinks gender roles are on the same level as creationism.

My gosh that's good.  lol.  I fully intend to steal it.  Hope you don't mind.

Julie

[Edge]

My gosh that's good.  lol.  I fully intend to steal it.  Hope you don't mind.

Julie

By all means, take it.

[Taka]

i still won't chase men and women out of here just for being binery identified though.
some things make more sense here, like how gender roles don't make sense.
...kind of.

[Pikachu]

i still won't chase men and women out of here just for being binery identified though.
some things make more sense here, like how gender roles don't make sense.
...kind of.

I'm glad. 'Cause while I may not identify as non-binary, I identify more with this section of the forum. If that makes any sense.

It's like... I feel more of a kinship with people here. Because here, I'm not expected to fit in. I always feel like the other MTFs expect me to be a certain way. Not all of them, but many.

[Mark3]

All great comments.! 

When I came here I was also searching for what I was, what it was called, how it's described, to see if it fit me.?
The biggest mistake I made here was believing I'd found all the answers..?
There are no exact answers really, I mean look at most everyone, we change slightly, to a lot, all the time.?
Our genders are like stars in the universe, they flicker differently every time you look, but at the end of the day, we are all connected and uniquely alike, just like the stars in the sky, we all shine together..

You're always very welcome to join in things, and ask questions and make comments. In fact thats the best way to learn about yourself.
Cheers,
mark

[Edge]

i still won't chase men and women out of here just for being binery identified though.
some things make more sense here, like how gender roles don't make sense.
...kind of.

Not necessarily. I've had people here speak as if I should conform to gender "norms." Someone telling me that I can (or should be) "feminine" or "less masculine" enforces and conforms to gender roles just as much as someone telling me that I should be "masculine" or "less effeminate" does.

[Taka]

yeah, i remember something like that. it's an odd thing that not all agree on though.
i hope you'll come by to remind us once in a while that people like you also exist.

if only we could learn to see people as other than feminine or masculine.
my body is curvy, not feminine. because how can curvy be feminine when it's not on a female?

edge. the description of yourself as masculine, is it how you view yourself, or a definition in accordance with what society defines as masculine?
i'm fairly sure i've gotten down that you're a man of a typically masculine nature, and the masculinity doesn't change even when your gender is woman.
but i could have gotten it wrong, so correct me if needed.

it's an interesting thing, and there are some discussions we need to take in order to develop as a community.
i don't want a place where we tell others to be anything other than what they are.
it's not my place to tell people to be more or less of any characteristic.
all i need to do is listen, and meet people with an open mind.
i want to understand.

[Shantel]

Nathan, Edge and Stephanie "Pikachu",
                 It's been my observation that times are changing in the transgender community and many of us are reassessing our own transitions and are striking a tangental course to what we originally perceived as our goal which is probably based more on the self perception of our own reality rather than the realities of the crowd. That has been my own experience and so there's nothing wrong with being true to oneself rather than having to squeeze into other people's perceptions of how important it is to them that we fit into a specific profile. It's just another facet of personal development and preferences. If you feel drawn to think a bit outside of the standard boxes then you belong here.

[Edge]

if only we could learn to see people as other than feminine or masculine.
my body is curvy, not feminine. because how can curvy be feminine when it's not on a female?

edge. the description of yourself as masculine, is it how you view yourself, or a definition in accordance with what society defines as masculine?
i'm fairly sure i've gotten down that you're a man of a typically masculine nature, and the masculinity doesn't change even when your gender is woman.
but i could have gotten it wrong, so correct me if needed.

it's an interesting thing, and there are some discussions we need to take in order to develop as a community.
i don't want a place where we tell others to be anything other than what they are.
it's not my place to tell people to be more or less of any characteristic.
all i need to do is listen, and meet people with an open mind.
i want to understand.

I'll let you know when I figure it out. A little of both?
Honestly, sometimes I wonder if my aversion to things of mine being called effeminate is because then I feel like I'm expected to fit other "feminine" stereotypes like being gentle which I am very much not and have no wish to be and I'm expected to not be rough and aggressive which I very much am and wish to be.

I agree with you.

[Satinjoy]

In this section we celebrate our truth.  Some truth is binary, some not, but we get into total honesty and reject outside pressures to conform to something not real to us.

I am like that.

I need honest truth, and those that cannot handle it, can't.  Those who can, can.

Being real, true to who we are, is everything to me.

The rewards have been awesome.

Blessings

Satinjoy

[Pikachu]

Nathan, Edge and Stephanie "Pikachu",
                 It's been my observation that times are changing in the transgender community and many of us are reassessing our own transitions and are striking a tangental course to what we originally perceived as our goal which is probably based more on the self perception of our own reality rather than the realities of the crowd. That has been my own experience and so there's nothing wrong with being true to oneself rather than having to squeeze into other people's perceptions of how important it is to them that we fit into a specific profile. It's just another facet of personal development and preferences. If you feel drawn to think a bit outside of the standard boxes then you belong here.

I definitely feel like how I view gender is pretty far outside the box. When someone identifies as something, that's how I see them, regardless of what they look like. This is why concepts like "passing" and "stealth" have lost their meaning to me. I no longer really understand them. I no longer have a mentality of "I have to do this, this and this to become my gender." I just am. I'm already a woman. I don't have to be seen as one by society for it to count.

Of course, I still have dysphoria about my body. I still want breasts and female genitals. But these things no longer prevent me from being myself. And I've become rather resentful of the notion that they're some requirement for being seen and treated as any other woman. What if I'm never able to take the typical medical steps in transition? What if I'm never able to afford it, or for health reasons, or even just lack of availability in my area? Am I less of a woman during that time? Why would I be?

I just feel so disconnected from the typical MTF mindset, I guess. But I know my soul is female. That's all that truly matters, anyway. Everything else is just superficial, and I want people to see beyond it to the real me. Would it really make me feel better if everyone saw me as a woman, as I've always dreamed of, if the only reason they do is because of something physical?

Just my rambly thoughts... I'm not sure they'll make sense to anyone besides me.

[Edge]

^This.
I do have a lot of body dysphoria though and passing is important to me because being called "she" feels like a punch in the gut.

[Taka]

you make sense, pikachu. a whole lot of it.
so much that i thought i was looking at myself in a mirror for a while.
switch all female with male, and you're getting very close to me.

I'll let you know when I figure it out. A little of both?
Honestly, sometimes I wonder if my aversion to things of mine being called effeminate is because then I feel like I'm expected to fit other "feminine" stereotypes like being gentle which I am very much not and have no wish to be and I'm expected to not be rough and aggressive which I very much am and wish to be.

I agree with you.

i did learn a bit of the strength of women in childhood, so i don't have the same aversion.
no fear of being feminine, women around me are often fiercer than men.
my own aggressive, hateful, resentful, fiery and fierce self, is a woman. i'm completely convinced about that.
she wouldn't be happy with just killing those abusers, she'd make a black mass out of them while not even letting them die until the end.
i'm glad i'm more than a woman, at least the other side of me had enough sense to stop her from going crazy on us.
i might have done something regrettable if i weren't a man as well.

[Edge]

Funnily enough, it was the same in my childhood. I always thought aggression was a feminine trait. It wasn't until I started looking into my gender identity that I started talking to people and learned that being nurturing and gentle is associated with femininity and not aggression. And I learned that people actually believe in that. (What world are they living in?!)
But it was also when I started coming out as a trans man that a lot of people started labelling me as "effeminate" and expecting me to be someone I'm not. I've spent most of life having people insist that I have to be what they say I am instead of who I actually am. I don't want to have to keep going through that.

We seem to have taken over this thread. I'm sorry. Back to the OP.

[Pikachu]

^This.
I do have a lot of body dysphoria though and passing is important to me because being called "she" feels like a punch in the gut.

Yeah, me too, except the other way around. For some reason, the worst for me is being addressed as "sir" or "Mister [surname]" when I go to the bank or someplace like that. I guess I've sort of gotten used to the male pronouns. They still irk me just a little every time I hear them, but they lack the impact of sir and mister. Depending on how I'm feeling, hearing one of those can completely ruin my day.

you make sense, pikachu. a whole lot of it.
so much that i thought i was looking at myself in a mirror for a while.
switch all female with male, and you're getting very close to me.

Thanks, Taka. It's good to know that made sense to someone besides me.