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I could use an outside view on this

Started by Edge, October 19, 2014, 09:00:49 PM

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Edge

I am a little confused in terms of gender again and would like some outside input. I'm going to try to make it as easy to read understand as possible.

First I'll get what this isn't about out of the way. This has nothing to do with gender roles, gender "norms," any part of my personality that does not pertain to this topic, society, clothing, expression, presentation, and anything I may have forgotten to add that has nothing to do with actual gender. I hate that I have to say this. Don't make me repeat it.

Now onto what this is about. Warning: it will be rambly, tangled, and may not make much sense. I'm hoping writing it will help me straighten it out a bit, but if not, please bear with me.
There's no question that I'm a transsexual guy. Every step I take in my transition has made me happier and more confident than I could have imagined. I can tell my brain is structured to function best with testosterone and I am never giving that up. The dysphoria sucks though. I feel like if I can't get these breasts off me, I'll go insane. I get upset when people gender me as anything other than a guy, remind me that I look like a woman, and/or consider me less of a guy than any other guy. I am a guy and my body is supposed to be male.
Except sometimes I feel like I'm also an androgyne and/or also female. This confuses me.
(I will be using third person pronouns to try and keep the different genders clear, but I'm all me and all one person.)
Before I came out to myself as trans, I saw myself as twins. For the past while, I've still seen myself as twins, but I saw her as a persona I invented. Except personas are fake and I'm coming to realize that she's not. At least... I don't know. I still see myself as twins who are the same person.
Is she real? Or is it just leftover confusion caused by my body being shaped wrong and dysphoria fluctuations? How can I tell?
What is gender if it is not strictly what my brain tells me my body should be? Does this mean that she will want her body back at some point? I imagined her agreeing that I should transition to male because I'd be happier this way and, so far, she seems pretty content with that. Will she change her mind? The idea of not being able to or slowing down my transition makes me very unhappy. I can barely stand to wait the length of time I already have to never mind prolonging it.
Do I just feel this way due to fictional characters? When I first noticed recently that I felt female, it was triggered somehow by seeing Gamora in Guardians of the Galaxy. I have no idea why or how since I'm pretty indifferent to that character. Lately, Marvel Loki has been quite clearly genderfluid and characters specifically state she's both and whenever I read that or think of that, I feel... something. Is it just because he's the fictional character I relate to most? Is it just because I want to be like her? Is it just me being pathetic? Except it's the same feeling I get when I read lines that remind me of how eerily similar we are. Or do I just want to think that? Why would I want to?
I'm tempted to say that I feel my body should be male, but if I could shapeshift, I may switch. But would I? I don't know.
I'm also tempted to say that I'm exactly the same person regardless of gender, but you know what, that's not strictly true either. She identifies with Anat and he identifies with and wants to be like Odin (Norse, not Marvel). (Note: They're both war deities, so we're talking very subtle differences that even I can barely pick up on.) Or maybe all of me identifies with both (like I do with Norse Loki and Marvel Loki) and I'm just associating them to the gender that matches if that makes sense.
I should also mention that I am never less of a man. I'll use speaking as a metaphor here. Most of the time, he's speaking, but she's still there. Sometimes, she's speaking, but he's still there. Sometimes, both are speaking. Does that make sense? Assuming she's real of course.

So. I hope I made some sort of sense. Thoughts?
Why am I asking for some outside input when this is something clearly personal? Sometimes, I get lost in the confusion and other people may come up with things I hadn't considered that could give me hand.
Why do I feel I need this answered? I have insatiable curiosity and am very passionate about self knowledge.
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EchelonHunt

Edge,

I once viewed myself as twins, then triplets as I discovered my genderless identity.

She became very quiet for many years ever since He started to transition to male. Since I began to embrace my genderless identity, She began to speak up, voicing Her concerns of the voice not matching the body. He chimed in and agreed as well, it was too masculine-sounding for even Himself.

She wanted a female body, He wanted a male body. But I, the core of the identity, wanted a sexless body.

She and He realized if they got their respective bodies, I would be crippled with dysphoria like I already am with a female body that has masculine characteristics from HRT. They have since agreed that what genitals the body has do not matter to them, as long as He and She can present in an androgynous manner, that's all that matters. She wants Voice feminization surgery though, but we are doing voice therapy to get a gender neutral voice, if She (and/or He) does not genuinely like that voice, we will discuss then the options of getting VFS when the time comes to it.

Having gone from female, male to genderless, it is like I have these past selves I can speak to. They are parts of me, most definitely real. Discussing honestly with your parts of yourselves will help make sure nobody feels like they have gotten the short end of the stick, so to speak.  :) There may have to be compromises to be made in order to make the core, you, happy.

I hope that made at least a little sense ;D

Kind regards,

Jacey
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Edge

That makes sense, Echelon.
I'm worried about that. That I'll be crippled with dysphoria not matter what I do. So far though, all of me agrees that the testosterone is great for me, I like the changes, and the boobs need to go. She's a lot happier with a binder than he is without. I don't know though. Maybe we'll get to a point where she's uncomfortable. I hope if that happens, I can find a middle ground where I am happy.
I'm not sure what my core is. Right now, I'm tempted to say it's both combined, but when I shift back to male being dominant, I'm know I'll be tempted to say it's male. I think it's one of those.
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Mark3

I'm very sure I have remnants of my twin sister in my being, she was stillborn, we shared the womb together for 9 months, and were very much attached at the same point in our mother.. I'm certain I get a lot on my femaleness from her, maybe a gift to me as I entered the world, and she left it..

But I know how you must feel sometimes..

I know in time you'll figure it out.
I wish I could be more help..
"The soul is beyond male and female as it is beyond life and death."
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Edge

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LordKAT

This sounds most like the 'two spirit' in native american lore than any other description I have seen.
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Taka

she is quite strong in me, he feels manly enough no matter what i wear.
both are strong in me, but he really did want to take over for a while.
feeling invisible isn't very nice.

i have never really identified with any female deity as far as i can remember. there has been admiration, but no actual want to be that.
disney's pocahontas is the only female character i have wanted to be, but that was only because she was cooler than any guys.
maybe she liked that. and he didn't really disagree either. both thought change was impossible, so that really was the closest i could easily get.
i'd still want to be the medicine man rather than the chief's daughter if i got the choice though.

i have always identified with odin. probably the thirst for knowledge. he can (is allowed) to do magic too. not a bad combination.
there is no well of wisdom to give my eye for, even though i'd gladly give my eye for it.
maybe my wish to transition, to see the world from the other side, the one only cross sex hormones can show me, is nothing other than odin's thirst for knowledge.
i can't stand not knowing, being unable to understand. huginn observes the world, to find all knowledge that doesn't sit right beside me. muninn remembers all that is worth knowing. it's interesting to think of, how my mind works. it doesn't make sense, but it doesn't have to either.
this is something all of me share, wanting to know and experience more. never feeling complete as long as any knowledge is hidden from me.

he insists on a place for himself, even outside the online world of unlimited possibilities.
forums are great places for being, without anyone seeing any reason to doubt.
but he is not always there, or some days very queer. she takes over, but without the capabilities of acting him perfectly. people have been confused in the most amusing ways. she tries her best as she knows he needs a place where he can be himself, even if it hurts her when she can't say whatever she wants, just because guys aren't allowed to be all of the things that girls are.

but both and maybe even more of me, are annoyed when being treated like a woman in the offline world. people hide their true selves, thinking this is the polite thing to do. i am disgusted by this behavior imposed by female society, by the expectations people have of me that even she doesn't want to live up to.
mother calls me tomboy, she thinks she know what it is like. but she never experienced having two genders.

to me, having two genders doesn't mean that there is a need to have a genderless or androgynous body. it would be convenient, but isn't necessary.
i have tried being a woman, done all that she ever wanted to do. even she agrees that some of these things will never be attempted again. she is not ready to fade out of my life, she'll still want to take the lead sometimes. but she thinks it's better to struggle with a male body if that is what the end result is, than forcing him to hide forever.

he has always wanted to sing bass. she was thrilled to sing tenor in the high school choir. the high soprano was only nice for as long as a boy's body would be able to produce those clear tones. when the boys' voices started to crack, mine did not. soprano was no longer something i wanted to be good at.

i'm going nowhere with this. just telling about myself, the very little that i know.
i will not know anything for sure unless i try this hrt thing, but it will be difficult to get there in this place where i live, and moving is out of the question for now. maybe forever.

if she says she's real, give her the benefit of doubt.
i once held a whole family council just for me. we had a need to talk things out. not only he and she, turns out there's more than just gender to this, there are very different personalities both to her and him. one turns out to have been of our creation. maybe others will turn out to be that too, but i can't know until they either become unnecessary or suddenly start speaking up for their right to existence.
she shouted at me like that when i was considering binary transition. now that she's being recognized, she can agree to that if necessary. all she really needed from me was a place to exist. it doesn't have to be the right body, a realization all have come to.
it is most fair to let him try at having his right body, some parts of it will benefit all, like getting rid of the chest. some parts may become awkward.
but he has been able to express himself at times even from within a female body, so she agrees on ding the same with a male body, if it comes to that.

just talk to her. maybe the occasional eyeliner is more important than a feminine voice.
i've managed to make a compromise with my hair, it looks better than anything i've had before.
we fiercely believe i can do this and become happier and more content in the process.
we are all going into this in order to have no regrets, and will have none even if the outcome isn't as expected.
the only important thing is to have all with me, in agreement, and with a right to say stop or we'll have to think this through once more.
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Dread_Faery

Things have a way of finding a place of balance in the end.

I, like you had a strong physical need to have the right body and I did that to the fullest possible extent. After sometime I started to  re-evaluate my gender, my being female bodied never changed, though how I understood my gender identity did. For me it was realising that part of me doesn't identify with gender at all, for you it sounds slightly different, but the one thing that you have never doubted is your need to be male bodied.

I want to play with my gender expression, to see how far I can push it, but at no point do I want to be perceived as male, or even neutral. Idk, this is me, your reality will be different, but I feel we are similar in some ways, mainly that intense physical need to transition.
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Edge

Quote from: LordKAT on October 20, 2014, 12:07:35 AM
This sounds most like the 'two spirit' in native american lore than any other description I have seen.
I know. This is the reason I considered myself bi-gender for awhile. I don't really like that term though. It fits, but at the same time seems a little too rigid if that makes sense. I like fluid. It's more... fluid... Words and stuff.

Quote from: Taka on October 20, 2014, 03:42:24 AMshe is quite strong in me, he feels manly enough no matter what i wear.
both are strong in me, but he really did want to take over for a while.
feeling invisible isn't very nice.
Agreed.

Quote from: Taka on October 20, 2014, 03:42:24 AMi have never really identified with any female deity as far as i can remember. there has been admiration, but no actual want to be that.
In this case, I mean identify with as in feel a connection to. To be honest, it's entirely possible she also feels more of a connection to Thor and it really is a slight personality change. I'm not sure though. I (all of me) would rather be like Loki and Odin.
I would rather be like me, of course, but... oh you get what I mean.

Quote from: Taka on October 20, 2014, 03:42:24 AMi have always identified with odin. probably the thirst for knowledge. he can (is allowed) to do magic too. not a bad combination.
Same. There's that insatiable search for knowledge, the ability to do magic, the ability to do "women's" magic without anyone batting an eye because he's that badass, his aspects of war, his role as a trickster and wanderer, etc.

Quote from: Taka on October 20, 2014, 03:42:24 AMto me, having two genders doesn't mean that there is a need to have a genderless or androgynous body. it would be convenient, but isn't necessary.
i have tried being a woman, done all that she ever wanted to do. even she agrees that some of these things will never be attempted again. she is not ready to fade out of my life, she'll still want to take the lead sometimes. but she thinks it's better to struggle with a male body if that is what the end result is, than forcing him to hide forever.
I think this where she is right now.

Quote from: Taka on October 20, 2014, 03:42:24 AMif she says she's real, give her the benefit of doubt.
I think I will.

Quote from: Taka on October 20, 2014, 03:42:24 AMjust talk to her. maybe the occasional eyeliner is more important than a feminine voice.
i've managed to make a compromise with my hair, it looks better than anything i've had before.
We do talk. Actually, her expression is pretty much identical to his. We did compromise on hair though. Mainly because as a metalhead who hates looking like a butch lesbian and likes long hair, I'm completely in agreement.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on October 20, 2014, 05:23:02 AM
Things have a way of finding a place of balance in the end.

I, like you had a strong physical need to have the right body and I did that to the fullest possible extent. After sometime I started to  re-evaluate my gender, my being female bodied never changed, though how I understood my gender identity did. For me it was realising that part of me doesn't identify with gender at all, for you it sounds slightly different, but the one thing that you have never doubted is your need to be male bodied.

I want to play with my gender expression, to see how far I can push it, but at no point do I want to be perceived as male, or even neutral. Idk, this is me, your reality will be different, but I feel we are similar in some ways, mainly that intense physical need to transition.
Yeah that sounds very similar except part of me identifies as a combination of both genders instead of none. Also, my gender expression doesn't change. I don't know. Maybe it will if I start being able to grow facial hair or something. We'll see.

I'm just typing this up quickly, so hopefully it makes sense.
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Taka

it makes sense. many female metalheads don't seem to stand out much from the male ones in clothing style.
maybe interests have something to do with it.

i have worn so many dresses, even in male gender more, that i really don't see them as anything other than clothes.
it doesn't make a difference what i wear in public. at home only comfort matters.
though i've suddenly realized i need some male traditional costume tailored to fit even with my chest on. clothes do matter a little, i can't wait for even two more years to wear something like that.
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