SRS when you're non-binary

[helen2010]

This was me throughout my life. I wanted female parts, even would have welcomed SRS, but I figured since I wasn't "a woman in a man's body" no therapist would ever approve it.

Suzi

Thank you for sharing your lived experience.  It really does show the diversity of both the trans and non binary experience.  At a number of levels I think that we are quite similar ie MAAB, non binary, andro presenting etc  but whereas you have chosen a binary physical transition to have the lived experience of a female body., I am comfortable (currently) with the impact of low dose hrt in stopping my dysphoria, feminising my body which together with beard removal, FFS(with andro intent) and grooming/presentation changes align body, chemistry and identity. 

I had incorrectly assumed that you had chosen a binary physical transition because you had identified as non binary after your physical transition but this does not appear to have been the case.

It is probably a difficult question but do you think that there is another nuance or influence that you think caused your journey, which may be different from mine?  Eg was the greater acceptability of and amplitude available as female bodied andro presenting, a factor?

Your post is very useful as I am sure that your perspective and experience will help inform and shape the understanding of those of us faced with a similar situation and potential choices.

Safe travels

Aisla

[Satinjoy]

This was me throughout my life. I wanted female parts, even would have welcomed SRS, but I figured since I wasn't "a woman in a man's body" no therapist would ever approve it.

And yes, I did have some problem with it, but it was more everyday gatekeeping than any problem with being NB.

Not sure what you're asking here.

Why deny a Nonbinary their right to have surgery if the know what they are doing and theeconsequences good and not as good.

I think we should be allowed it, though it is not my current destiny.  In other words Suzie I totally support your choice, courage and authentic truth.

Blessings

Satinjoy

[Taka]

if science could produce fully functional male genitals of an average size, i would get srs.
calling it grs or gcs would be weird for me, as the surgery would do nothing to make my genitals closer to what my gender is.

but i want the experience. i know what it's like to be a woman, and i have gotten tired of being stuffed into this category and forced to keep experiencing it every month. now i want to know the male experience.
even if i did that, i'd probably still wear dresses whenever i wanted to. i'd be as non-conforming as a man as i am as a woman. just even more visibly so.

i find it kind of stupid and very annoying when people say you have to choose one or the other.
as if i could keep living as one single gender for my entire life.
i can't do that any more than i can be monosexual.

[Satinjoy]

Ahh, a computer.  Yay.

Now I am going to get controversial and if you are a "binary trans" or a woman trapped in a male body mtf, you might want to pull off this post before I trigger you.


Are you off post?



OK.



So here is this thing where we have insistance by the mtf females that they are totally girl.  OK that is probably true for a bunch of them diagnostically.  But then we have the mtf's like myself that are not that far down the scale. The outdated Benjamine scale talked of this, stage 4,5,6 respectively, and in that I am stage 4.  But that is controversial and usually sparks a firestorm in the mtf section.

So my point is why be in denial and why not accept that we are truly trans-women, if we choose a binary physical solution?  That is not to cheapen our nonbinary identities, it is to harmonize our bodies with our physical and sexual needs.  Not want as in toy but need.  I think Suzie clearly has that need, although I personally am probably farther to the female sexual side than she is, no way to know, but penetrating another woman (penetrating a male would be ... impossible... for me, yikes) or more specificallly my wife, always involves total female nerve endings and interpretation of body function.

It is impossible for me to achieve my ...bam... without feeling 100% female, fantasy and reality of physical stimulous.  So why not.  For me there is a financial and familial block, pull the family block through tragedy and if I survive it (it is my worst fear) then I would very likely go after srs.  (Agree GrS is inaccurate for me unless it means genital reassignment surgury.)

So why not.  I spent 4 months learning the consequences of taking hormones, and then made the only possible decision based with full responsibility for my necessary action.  Hormones are not an option they are a need and a necessity for me personally.

So the gatekeepers responsibility in my eyes is to open our eyes to our truths, not societies truth or SOC truth but what will happen to US, and then let us decide, free of self deception.  Not saying that the full power mtf girls are self decieved, I will go to the mat for those girls to be truthfully binary for themselves, but saying that if we see through that in our own lives to owning the past and the present together, and to self identify as transsexuals, then why can't we have transsexual bodies without insisting that we are girls?  Or boys.

I was trying to get my health insurance going on hormones again and got publically embarrased during a meeting about disclosures, I am tired of hiding so I asked flat out if I had to disclose that I take estrogen so that I can get estrogen.  There is a good chance that I will have to pay out of pocket for both my ecyp and spirio, which on a salary of 375 US a week and a family of five SUCKS.   Plus I need a mammogram and can't afford that either.  Finesteride is covered as I am diagnosed BPH that was my trigger for total meltdown hitting the wall when I found out what it was through Susan's and my life went WHAT?

Digressing, but the insurance company did not clear or have policy for non binary srs because of lack of data.  Well duh.  If you don't allow us to have SRS then how the hell are you going to know how we adapt  to it.

So now we have our pioneer into the unknown Suzie, who I personally respect intensely here, and they can have some data.  If she wasn't sheilded because she had to decieve to get her Necessary health treatment.

So thats my take on this.  We have to pretend to be fully girl?  Do full time?  What is this the stone age?  How dumb is it to force full time for hormone treatments?  Well isnt this the same thing, you can always cross over to male presentation at the drop of a hat if you are non binary, no sweat.  Whats the difference?  Sheilding from regret when you have no birthgender functionality?  Come on.

So personally I say I am not mtf yet I am surely mtf nonbinary style, but how can I be mtf if I am not self decieving (for me girls not forcing this on you if you didn't bail on the post)?  I know I am a transgendered male to a female hormonally transitioned body.  Not a preop, I could be though, that makes me physically no different than a full power mtf female binary who is waiting for the operation.

Its scewed.   It doesn't feel right, and unless someone can give me the medical/psychological reason justifying refusal to grant SRS because we are more "sane" than others.... that'll trigger everyone, but I am speaking from their point of view here, don't eat me for it, then unless someone can tell my why I cannot be an authentic transwoman physically because I see  through the binary to the nonbinary truth that is Satinjoy, then I don't buy it, and I will defend Suzie's and any other mtf's choice to have surgury to the teeth.

What is sane for me is to be who I am, not who someone wants to force me to be.  Same for the all-girl mtf, same for the nb, the andros, living our truth, we have the right to full ownership of our bodies and our sexualities.  Those who force others to be something they are not, in my way of thinking, are both insane and dangerous.

I wonder if I'll have to edit this.  But it is straight from my core.

Satinjoy

[suzifrommd]

It is probably a difficult question but do you think that there is another nuance or influence that you think caused your journey, which may be different from mine?  Eg was the greater acceptability of and amplitude available as female bodied andro presenting, a factor?

Well the main reason why I physically transitioned is that I've wanted a female body since I was a teenager. Usually this took the form of an intense curiosity. It hurt me that I would never know what it felt like to have breasts or a female bottom (or so I thought). But there were also many moments when I desired the female sexual experience and felt uncomfortable with the male one.

The main reason for the social transition was fitting into the world. I had great difficulty making friends in my male presentation. Women were put off by a married man (or so I appeared) interested in them socially, and I didn't find friendships with men comfortable. The only way I could think to improve this was to actually show myself to the world as a woman. "I may look like a man, but I'm actually non-binary gender and have a female heart" is something NO ONE would buy.

It didn't hurt that I'd always wished I could have been born a woman.

I never seriously desired a non-binary presentation. That seemed like it would be far too much work and that I'd always be swimming up stream. For someone whose greatest need is acceptance, that would be rubbing salt into my wounds. There isn't much dysphoria associated with not showing the male part of my identity to the world, so I'm happy to have the world see me as female.

Does that answer your question?

We have to pretend to be fully girl?  Do full time?  What is this the stone age?  How dumb is it to force full time for hormone treatments?  Well isnt this the same thing, you can always cross over to male presentation at the drop of a hat if you are non binary, no sweat.  Whats the difference?  Sheilding from regret when you have no birthgender functionality?  Come on.

So personally I say I am not mtf yet I am surely mtf nonbinary style, but how can I be mtf if I am not self decieving (for me girls not forcing this on you if you didn't bail on the post)?

I'm 100% with you, SJ.

Non-binary people have a RIGHT to transition to the presentation that is most comfortable to us and to have medical support as we do it. We are NOT required to sit on the sidelines and cheer on binary folks as they delight in their new lives.

My therapist was 100% comfortable with offering me HRT and SRS. In fact, she said that the fact that I was non-binary DID NOT MATTER IN THE LEAST toward what sort of body and life were right for me. For her, that's all that mattered - what kind of life and body I wanted. She frequently worked to draw focus away from from my gender identity which she viewed as somewhat irrelevant, since it is what it is, it's not going to change, and the most important thing in her mind was how to deal with it.

I am comfortable with an all female presentation, for reasons I give in my explanation to Aisla above. But if I weren't, and if I chose some sort of non-binary life, I doubt that would have made the slightest difference to her. For her "full time" meant whatever I wanted it to mean, whatever authentic living meant to me.

Full disclosure, I should say that insurance wasn't a problem. I'm not sure what my HRT diagnosis was but whatever it is, my insurance company covers it like any other prescription. I doubt they're any the wiser. And SRS, I paid for out of my savings so I wasn't at the mercy of insurance regulations.

[helen2010]

Suzi

Many, many thanks for this.  It helps, it helps a lot in understanding your journey and identity.  Your response to SJ where you shared your therapist's perspective brought this together for me.

Safe travels

Aisla

[Taka]

it should be my right to decide whatever to do with my own body, as long as i'm sane enough to actually know what i'm talking about, and it isn't a spur of the moment thing.

but national health authorities don't agree with me. they want one single clinic to have every right to decide what genderly transgressions i'm allowed to make.
and only the "trans enough" are diagnosed with a mental illness that grants them a right to treatment. i don't have a right to treatment, so their take on my matter is that i shouldn't even get treatment if i pay for it myself.
ridiculous.

there's also the problem that jacey faces, of how nullification surgery on someone assigned female at birth is a perfectly illegal genital mutilation, unless the person is diagnosed binary transsexual. when an adult desires genital mutilation, can it really be considered a mutilation?


grs can work for me now that i think about it. genital rearrangement surgery.
sane adults should be able to get it, no matter which form they desire, as long as the desire is provably consistent.

[Satinjoy]

I never seriously desired a non-binary presentation. That seemed like it would be far too much work and that I'd always be swimming up stream. For someone whose greatest need is acceptance, that would be rubbing salt into my wounds. There isn't much dysphoria associated with not showing the male part of my identity to the world, so I'm happy to have the world see me as female.

Here is an interesting issue for us all.  Is it easier to  be non binary presenting or full binary presenting opposite to birth gender, and gain acceptance.

I don't know, but I am presenting gently genderqueer, and more so lately.  I figure I kept trying to act male so long that it became authentic, now I just walk through this new presentation which is very comfortable, for me to accept myself trumps someone else accepting me, and I am talking presentation here.  I NEED to see the nails and the hair and be "female" under the clothes, at least by way of dress and transition.

There are some here who have the guts to be flat out transsexuals with no appologies, and I think that is great.  But the world is not ready to handle it, we scramble their brains sometimes because they can't sort out things like the bathroom and if male being attracted to a "notmale".    So they have issues, and we get rejected based on their "stuff".

But for anyone who is willing to show themselves out there as who you are authentically, or willing to cross the gender presentational barriers, every single one of you has my highest respect, period.

Yeah we want acceptance and joy and to be who we are, and I think it hurts very deeply to be born trans.   But I will say that this new powerful feeling I have of finally accepting my true transsexual nature, fully nonbinary and fully hormonally female bodies, and having a feeling I can only describe as stage presence, when you own who you are, your whole physical self, your presentation, and the full power of all of it and the shear force of that personality, Oh My God how wonderful that feels, screw everyone else's issues  there, although I will modify and tone this presentationally for the wife, just as she would wear perfume and lingerie for me.  But the full power and presence of being a genuine real  transsexual is really something to grab hold of and is very new to me.  I want to keep it.

That power belongs to all of us,  its what I call the diamond heart of trans.

rambling.  Acceptance is really tough isn't it, others that is, as opposed to self acceptance.  Nobody is bulletproof from that, no wonder we sometimes develop very hard shells and serious defence mechs to cope socially.

[Dread_Faery]

I think cissexist binarism and gender essentialism can make it hard for many trans folk to own the trans part of their identity. When all you want to be is a woman, having trans as part of your identity can explicitly other you. Even though the truth of the matter is being trans does not make you less of a woman, just as choosing not to have children and a whole host of other things don't make you less of a woman.

All this colours perceptions of enby transitions, especially those that on the surface appear binary in nature. I thought that having a strong need to physically be female meant I was a binary woman. I was wrong, but the fact that I'm not a binary woman didn't change the need to be female bodied.

[Satinjoy]

So for my sister nb mtf's...

Do you self identify as being a transgendered person, or do you self identify if female presenting as a woman period?

Just curious.  There is no right way or wrong way here, only the way that we feel comfortable with.

I stay under the radar.... but have an explanation ready, and lately its getting shorter, as in, I am transgender.  Deal with it.  (For those out there.)

[Dread_Faery]

I view being trans as a process I went through, obviously quite an important process, but not something I center my identity round. At the same time I don't pretend that it's not there, I am trans, and happy to talk about my experiences, but just don't wear that identity.

If I get flat out read as trans I usually don't deny it. well depends on the tone of the question, I just refuse to engage with nasty stuff, but people who are respectful about it I'll happily talk about my experiences.

[suzifrommd]

So for my sister nb mtf's...

Do you self identify as being a transgendered person, or do you self identify if female presenting as a woman period?

Just curious.  There is no right way or wrong way here, only the way that we feel comfortable with.

I stay under the radar.... but have an explanation ready, and lately its getting shorter, as in, I am transgender.  Deal with it.  (For those out there.)

Yes, I'm trans. I'm a non-binary trans woman. Don't know if I'd call that an identity per se. More like a description, or maybe a fact.

[Satinjoy]

I can't seem to self identify as a trans woman.  But transsexual, absolutely.

[justpat]

  Thank you so much Suzi for starting this thread. It is so reassuring -- validating-- to see others like me, a blend of two and recognizing that fact.
  I am a NB transsexual M2F there is no doubt at all in my mind.Presenting,living and functioning as a female all the time.Yes, presenting as masculine can also be done but my core is feminine and the choice is to present as such all the time.
  There is so much in this thread that describes me perfectly. I am just at a loss for words and those that I would say have already been said.  Thank you everyone for posting your thoughts.   Patty

[Taka]

i'm almost feeling left out when you talk to mtf sisters....
my sense of being both is very strong. it may be hormonal, that the female side doesn't really exist.
but i have no way of knowing that yet.

still, being female means i can easily get away with wearing skirts.
my chest is a real bother to me. but only the attachment to my body.
i really like the visual effect, and would probably start stuffing a bra at times of i got rid of the natural ones...

there's no way of telling what i really am.
a genderqueer boy who simply loves skirts, maybe.
but i really hope that the both are reality and none is an illusion.
fells kind of odd, wanting to transition to mtf nb...

[Satinjoy]

I don't mean to leave you or any of our other female body born folks out, if this was a pc I would fix it but it's a phone.  Obviously it applies to all of us....

Sorry, really.

[Taka]

i know you didn't mean it that way, satinjoy.
there's no need to edit anything, you were just asking an honest question.