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Understanding how cis people think

Started by ImagineKate, October 22, 2014, 06:51:39 AM

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suzifrommd

Quote from: Sheelah on October 23, 2014, 03:37:28 PM
Pardon my ignorance.
What does Cis mean?
Kisses
Sheelah
Ventura, Ca

Cisgender means having a gender identity that matches body sex. It's the opposite of transgender. Cis for short.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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Foxglove

Quote from: Sheelah on October 23, 2014, 03:37:28 PM
Pardon my ignorance.
What does Cis mean?

"Trans" is the Latin preposition meaning "across, on the other side of".  "Transgender" then would suggest "crossing the gender line".

"Cis" is the Latin preposition meaning "on this side of, on the near side of".  "Cisgender" then would suggest (rather awkwardly, in my view) "staying on your side of the gender line".  We pronounce "cis" like "Sis".  For Julius Caesar it would have been like "keese".
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Foxglove

Quote from: Sephirah on October 23, 2014, 01:37:44 PM
I never really think too much about my head, or arm, until it starts aching. Then the only thing I can think about is how much it hurts and how much I want it to stop hurting.

I guess people only think about certain things when they have a reason to think about certain things. When everything's working as intended, we're far too busy with more pressing matters. When something becomes a more pressing matter... then we start to think about it. . .

Quote from: Anna-Maria on October 23, 2014, 03:14:59 PM

Why do Cis people  mix up genitalias with sex and gender? Why do they think being FAAB/MAAB makes you a woman/man regardless what you´re feeling inside? It´s exactly because of what I described in my previous post. Their brain accepts the body as it is, because the body is shaped the way the brain expects it to be. The subconscious sex will never come to a conscious level as it does in Trans people. That´s also the reason why they can´t understand Trans people. Cis people just don´t have a need for transitioning. They feel complete and this sense of completeness derives directly from the assigned sex being in line with the subconscious sex.

I think these remarks are very pertinent.  I have thought along the same lines.

We always have certain expectations of the world.  E.g., if you drop your keys, you pick them up off the ground without really thinking about it.  Unlike Newton, you don't go into some profound analysis of the nature of gravity.  You simply know how the world works, and you act/react accordingly.  Now if one day your keys started floating away into the sky, that would raise a lot of questions in your mind.  It would freak you out.

And I think this is what we do to cispeople.  We freak them out because we challenge one of their most basic assumptions about the world: if it looks like a man, it should talk like a man, act like a man, etc.  If it looks like a woman, etc.  They have expectations about the world and we upset them on a very deep level.  Gender is something that's very deeply-seated in your psyche.

Now we don't mean to challenge them.  We don't do it on purpose.  But we do it nonetheless.  And that's why so many of them respond unthinkingly and with a great deal of hostility.  We're upsetting a very significant aspect of their world view.

If you listen to a lot of the arguments cispeople make against ->-bleeped-<-, you'll see that they're things that are designed to assure them that ->-bleeped-<- doesn't really exist, that it's something that can be made to go away.

E.g., ->-bleeped-<- is the result of poor parenting.  If we could identify what parents are doing so wrong that they're turning their kids into transkids, we could educate them, they could stop doing these things, and there wouldn't be any more transkids in the world.  Or ->-bleeped-<- is the result of some sort of abuse.  If adults stopped abusing little children, then there wouldn't be any more transgender children.

Cispeople have a false view and false expectations of the world.  They think everybody is unambiguously male or female.  And we LGBTI people pay a very high price for their failure to accept that things aren't as neat as they'd like them to be.
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CalmRage

Quote from: Foxglove on October 24, 2014, 05:58:09 AM
I think these remarks are very pertinent.  I have thought along the same lines.

We always have certain expectations of the world.  E.g., if you drop your keys, you pick them up off the ground without really thinking about it.  Unlike Newton, you don't go into some profound analysis of the nature of gravity.  You simply know how the world works, and you act/react accordingly.  Now if one day your keys started floating away into the sky, that would raise a lot of questions in your mind.  It would freak you out.

And I think this is what we do to cispeople.  We freak them out because we challenge one of their most basic assumptions about the world: if it looks like a man, it should talk like a man, act like a man, etc.  If it looks like a woman, etc.  They have expectations about the world and we upset them on a very deep level.  Gender is something that's very deeply-seated in your psyche.

Now we don't mean to challenge them.  We don't do it on purpose.  But we do it nonetheless.  And that's why so many of them respond unthinkingly and with a great deal of hostility.  We're upsetting a very significant aspect of their world view.

If you listen to a lot of the arguments cispeople make against ->-bleeped-<-, you'll see that they're things that are designed to assure them that ->-bleeped-<- doesn't really exist, that it's something that can be made to go away.

E.g., ->-bleeped-<- is the result of poor parenting.  If we could identify what parents are doing so wrong that they're turning their kids into transkids, we could educate them, they could stop doing these things, and there wouldn't be any more transkids in the world.  Or ->-bleeped-<- is the result of some sort of abuse.  If adults stopped abusing little children, then there wouldn't be any more transgender children.

Cispeople have a false view and false expectations of the world.  They think everybody is unambiguously male or female.  And we LGBTI people pay a very high price for their failure to accept that things aren't as neat as they'd like them to be.

yeah, because all cis people are the same. we're not all intolerant pr*cks and you should know that.
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ImagineKate

I had the conversation with her about this again. I asked her if she never ever wondered what it would be like. She said with a straight face, never. In that regard she said she is happy who she is. I also explained some of the scientific theories behind why I am trans. She did listen.

I explained about factors that could cause it such as prenatal hormones, DES and other stuff, and intersex conditions of varying degrees. I don't know if any of those apply to me but I have known myself to not be happy with my physical gender for as long as I remember.

My mission here is understanding. At least she should understand that I have little control over how I feel about myself and that transition is a treatment to manage this condition, not an optional cosmetic procedure.
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Devlyn

Quote from: Zóôt Threepwood on October 24, 2014, 10:01:39 AM
yeah, because all cis people are the same. we're not all intolerant pr*cks and you should know that.

Good point, and a reminder to avoid generalizing people.
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DelKay

Labels...
I don't think we should honestly try to differentiate our selves from others. I've noticed that it only puts up barriers and gives people excuses to not understand.
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ImagineKate

OK, I apologize if any overgeneralization of cis people was made.

I do not mean that there is no empathy. I am trying to understand why we are treated as if it's a lifestyle choice. At times I wish it was a lifestyle choice because then I could choose of my own free will.
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Jessica Merriman

Quote from: ImagineKate on October 24, 2014, 12:34:57 PM
I am trying to understand why we are treated as if it's a lifestyle choice. At times I wish it was a lifestyle choice because then I could choose of my own free will.
Blame it on tabloid T.V.! They make us look like ridiculous freaks. Case solved! Gosh I am good.  ;D
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ImagineKate

Quote from: cynthiaverdejo on October 22, 2014, 01:15:25 PM
I'm more transgender than I'd like to admit bit some people who are cisgender do wonder about their gender. Just because they decide they are not trans, we shouldn't assume all cisgender don't ask questions about themselves.
  We can't understand what they must go through, because we're not in their shoes and vice versa.

Just so we're clear, I don't really mean things like male privilege or female privilege. I mean a deep down questioning of "does it feel right." To me, it never felt right. That is obvious since I am trans. It seems as though for most people they don't even think about it. This I can't really wrap my head around. We wonder about all sorts of things in our life - why we are too fat, too skinny, our eye color, skin color, height, etc. But our gender? No way. "I'm a man/woman and I don't even think about it." I find this really hard to comprehend.

I work in the TV/media biz and on one of our shows they were asking the question about did you love your gender... and one of the hosts said she loved being a woman. So she is fully accepting and enjoying her gender, which she was born with. I find this amazing.
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Foxglove

Quote from: ImagineKate on October 24, 2014, 12:34:57 PM
OK, I apologize if any overgeneralization of cis people was made.

Kate, I think these remarks were aimed at me.

Quote from: Zóôt Threepwood on October 24, 2014, 10:01:39 AM
yeah, because all cis people are the same. we're not all intolerant pr*cks and you should know that.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on October 24, 2014, 10:13:49 AM
Good point, and a reminder to avoid generalizing people.

Now, if Zoot and others want to go back and look at the exchange between AnnaMaria and me, they'll see the context of my remarks: we were talking about cispeople who don't understand TGism (which would be virtually all of them) and cispeople who are opponents of TGism (which is still lots and lots of them).  In that context, I stand by my remarks and see nothing to apologize for.

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Anna-Maria

Quote from: Foxglove on October 24, 2014, 12:50:06 PM
Kate, I think these remarks were aimed at me.


Now, if Zoot and others want to go back and look at the exchange between AnnaMaria and me, they'll see the context of my remarks: we were talking about cispeople who don't understand TGism (which would be virtually all of them) and cispeople who are opponents of TGism (which is still lots and lots of them).  In that context, I stand by my remarks and see nothing to apologize for.

We were talking about what it means to be cis, what´s constitutive for being cis and that´s how someone experiences his/her own subconscious sex compared to trans people. Is it hard to understand? Yup, this is generalizing because cis-people are a social group who share an indentical experience regarding their gender. Nothing to excuse for so far.

Beside that, we talked about cis people unaware of their subconscious sex and their inability to understand trans people or to cope with TGism. Is this generalizing? No. Because there´s no evidence in our postings showing that we were talking about all cis people and it wasn´t very enlightened to do so, because we don´t know how man cis people are aware of their subconscious sex. But the vast majority or trans people is facing misunderstanding, bigotry or outright hate in their daily life by cis people. This leads to the assumption that a majority of cis people are unaware of their subconscious sex and thus lacking the sense of understanding for trans people.

Cis people and trans people are different groups. The former is the majority and resorts to oppressive methods if it comes to gender related questions. The latter are the oppressed group. We can´t wipe these facts out by wishful thinking of a perfect world. Instead, the first step to change the world is, assessing its reality.

We didn´t make the world as it is , we try to describe it as it is. Maybe for some contemporaries these insights are inconvenient. Nothing to be sorry for.

xoxo
"Think pink, but don´t wear it"
Karl Lagerfeld







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Devlyn

Quote from: Foxglove on October 24, 2014, 05:58:09 AM
I think these remarks are very pertinent.  I have thought along the same lines.

We always have certain expectations of the world.  E.g., if you drop your keys, you pick them up off the ground without really thinking about it.  Unlike Newton, you don't go into some profound analysis of the nature of gravity.  You simply know how the world works, and you act/react accordingly.  Now if one day your keys started floating away into the sky, that would raise a lot of questions in your mind.  It would freak you out.

And I think this is what we do to cispeople.  We freak them out because we challenge one of their most basic assumptions about the world: if it looks like a man, it should talk like a man, act like a man, etc.  If it looks like a woman, etc.  They have expectations about the world and we upset them on a very deep level.  Gender is something that's very deeply-seated in your psyche.

Now we don't mean to challenge them.  We don't do it on purpose.  But we do it nonetheless.  And that's why so many of them respond unthinkingly and with a great deal of hostility.  We're upsetting a very significant aspect of their world view.

If you listen to a lot of the arguments cispeople make against ->-bleeped-<-, you'll see that they're things that are designed to assure them that ->-bleeped-<- doesn't really exist, that it's something that can be made to go away.

E.g., ->-bleeped-<- is the result of poor parenting.  If we could identify what parents are doing so wrong that they're turning their kids into transkids, we could educate them, they could stop doing these things, and there wouldn't be any more transkids in the world.  Or ->-bleeped-<- is the result of some sort of abuse.  If adults stopped abusing little children, then there wouldn't be any more transgender children.

Cispeople have a false view and false expectations of the world.  They think everybody is unambiguously male or female.  And we LGBTI people pay a very high price for their failure to accept that things aren't as neat as they'd like them to be.
Some cispeople have a false view and false expectations of the world.  They think everybody is unambiguously male or female. And we LGBTI people pay a very high price for their failure to accept that things aren't as neat as they'd like them to be.

See how much better that is? I didn't even have to throw around inconvenient words like contemporaries. If more than one person gets the same impression over how something was phrased, maybe the phrasing could have been better.

Hugs, Devlyn
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Foxglove

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on October 24, 2014, 05:19:13 PM
Some cispeople have a false view and false expectations of the world.  They think everybody is unambiguously male or female. And we LGBTI people pay a very high price for their failure to accept that things aren't as neat as they'd like them to be.

See how much better that is? I didn't even have to throw around inconvenient words like contemporaries. If more than one person gets the same impression over how something was phrased, maybe the phrasing could have been better.

Hugs, Devlyn

Sorry, Devlyn, but you're absolutely wrong on this point.  When it comes to ->-bleeped-<-, it is true to say that virtually every cisperson in the world (with very, very few exceptions) has a false view and false expectations of the world.  It is a very, very rare cisperson who does not define gender by the genitalia alone.  Talk to them and this is what you will see.  Try to explain to them that gender has a psychological dimension and you will see them struggling with that concept.

And it is also a fact that we transpeople have paid and are still paying a very high price for that.  Gay people and intersex people have paid a very high price in a similar fashion.

And Devlyn, you're free to disagree with me, but I don't like people patronizing me like I'm a child.

Best wishes,
Foxglove

[I'm adding a note to this post to clarify something that may be the source of confusion here: to say that a cisperson doesn't understand ->-bleeped-<- is not to say that that person is hostile to us.  There are of course many trans-friendly cispeople out there.  You don't necessarily have to understand something to be OK with it.

But the source of our troubles nonetheless lies in cispeople's failure to understand TGism.  Listen to cispeople and you will see in various ways how they don't begin to understand what TGism is all about.  E.g., those people who complain about transpeople using the loo: "Men are dressing up like women so they can go into the ladies' loo".  That is an expression of a failure to grasp what TGism actually is.]
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LordKAT

I think everyone needs to not take offense where none was intended. The explanation that it is one's own opinion and that it fit a vast majority should be enough.

A simple wording of what and why something is felt to be offensive is plenty.
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